australian article by Mark Saunokonoko who supports amaral discussion

[sadie]

A question isn't a fact.

Thank you Rob.

Seems some people cant read and dont like facts if they prove what they are saying is wrong.

[G-Unit]

Thank you Rob.

Seems some people cant read and dont like facts if they prove what they are saying is wrong.

I have looked at Mackenzie's official statement. He saw cigarette butts but there's no mention of him telling anyone until 2012 when, according to the media, OG interviewed him.

Now he tells us how many cigarette butts; four of them and that he told the police. It was indeed hours after MBM disappeared; about 36 hours by my calculation because he didn't go into block 6 until mid-morning on 5th;

He identified a first-floor stairway balcony opposite the apartment to Portuguese police hours after Madeleine disappeared and even asked officers to pick up four ­cigarette butts that could have been left by someone watching the apartment.

However, the officers let cleaners sweep away the butts, which could have held ­crucial samples of DNA from saliva.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/347692/Maddie-McCann-may-have-been-watched-from-balcony-witness-tells-Yard

Where did all this occur? Inside block 6? Well the cleaners were cleaning in and around the stairwell. If the police 'let them' that suggests they were nearby too. The police operations base was in Block 6 apartment 6 and they were there on 5th.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DEREK_FLACK.htm

Apartment 606 was occupied all week by Neil Berry. It's on the same level as the balcony referred to and the Berrys and Balus were sitting on the apartment's large balcony overlooking the car park behind block 6 all evening on 3rd. Berry was due to leave on 5th, so I assume the police took over the apartment after he vacated it.

According to Mackenzie he was given an apartment in block 6 to use in the daytime on 5th until his flight left. He doesn't say why he received this preferential treatment, but I assume he used the stairwell to reach that apartment and that's when he noticed the cigarette butts.

So were the four butts left by a watcher or by the police nipping out from apartment 6 for a smoke?

[sadie]

I have looked at Mackenzie's official statement. He saw cigarette butts but there's no mention of him telling anyone until 2012 when, according to the media, OG interviewed him.

Now he tells us how many cigarette butts; four of them and that he told the police. It was indeed hours after MBM disappeared; about 36 hours by my calculation because he didn't go into block 6 until mid-morning on 5th;

He identified a first-floor stairway balcony opposite the apartment to Portuguese police hours after Madeleine disappeared and even asked officers to pick up four ­cigarette butts that could have been left by someone watching the apartment.

However, the officers let cleaners sweep away the butts, which could have held ­crucial samples of DNA from saliva.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/347692/Maddie-McCann-may-have-been-watched-from-balcony-witness-tells-Yard

Where did all this occur? Inside block 6? Well the cleaners were cleaning in and around the stairwell. If the police 'let them' that suggests they were nearby too. The police operations base was in Block 6 apartment 6 and they were there on 5th.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DEREK_FLACK.htm

Apartment 606 was occupied all week by Neil Berry. It's on the same level as the balcony referred to and the Berrys and Balus were sitting on the apartment's large balcony overlooking the car park behind block 6 all evening on 3rd. Berry was due to leave on 5th, so I assume the police took over the apartment after he vacated it.

According to Mackenzie he was given an apartment in block 6 to use in the daytime on 5th until his flight left. He doesn't say why he received this preferential treatment, but I assume he used the stairwell to reach that apartment and that's when he noticed the cigarette butts.

So were the four butts left by a watcher or by the police nipping out from apartment 6 for a smoke?

OK

First of all apartment 606 was at the eastern end of block 6, not at the western end where the balcony that overlooked 5A was situated.  It was over 30 metres away crow flies.  Apartment 606 has a magnificent huge curved balcony to it.  So why would the PJ go for a fag that required going downstairs, walking maybe 50 metres and up stairs again?

SIL has a magnificent photo of it on his website.  Thank you SIL.  Unfortunately I am unable to post it but you can see it on https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/tag/ocean-club-night-creche/. scroll down over half the page.

Please could someone post that image.  TY





http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/347692/Maddie-McCann-may-have-been-watched-from-balcony-witness-tells-Yard,.

Secondly, Gunit, it appears that you didn't read the article properly despite cherry picking the next paragraph, cos it says

Back in the UK, he contacted Crimestoppers after reading a story in the Sunday Express and gave a statement to Leicestershire Police in December 2007.


Thirdly, Gunit.
There is no mystery about the Mackenzies being moved into block 6 whilst awaiting a late flight home.  I can assure you that if room is available this is a common occurence at reasonable hotels (including, i imagine, decent aparthotels).  Sometimes hotels charge for this service, but often it is free gratis.  One has to ask the day before departure, and usually it is granted.

Why so much mis/disinformation Gunit?



PS
When are you going to acknowledge that the areas immediately in front of 5A front door and The patio (rear) door +++ where visible to a watcher, if there was one, on that western balcony in block 6


Please note
+++ = these other areas were visible too =
1)  the street that the parents walked when checking their children
2) The area outside Madeleines window
3) The gate and part steps that Gerry, kate and Matt went up and down when checking the children
4)  By leaning out a little, the tapas restaurant

However, no matter how far a watcher might have leaned out he would not have been able to see Jez leaving the little car park opposite the Tapas Reception.  This is because the balcony is recessed behind the building at its southern end.  This blocks the view of Jez as he left that little car park

[Miss Taken Identity]

If there was indeed a 'watcher' the best chance of not being caught would be just after the parents left the children alone and alseep.
 &%+((£
all that coming and going woulld be too risky unless the  alledged watcher was a complete idiot, and one would question what was he watching for... erm  the best time to snatch?
 Going back to the first sentence, if being watched the  best time to snatch would be just after parents left. way too long time those children not being physically checked, the 'watcher' would have known this DUH!.

[G-Unit]

OK

First of all apartment 606 was at the eastern end of block 6, not at the western end where the balcony that overlooked 5A was situated.  It was over 30 metres away crow flies.  Apartment 606 has a magnificent huge curved balcony to it.  So why would the PJ go for a fag that required going downstairs, walking maybe 50 metres and up stairs again?

SIL has a magnificent photo of it on his website.  Thank you SIL.  Unfortunately I am unable to post it but you can see it on https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/tag/ocean-club-night-creche/. scroll down over half the page.

Please could someone post that image.  TY





http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/347692/Maddie-McCann-may-have-been-watched-from-balcony-witness-tells-Yard,.

Secondly, Gunit, it appears that you didn't read the article properly despite cherry picking the next paragraph, cos it says

Back in the UK, he contacted Crimestoppers after reading a story in the Sunday Express and gave a statement to Leicestershire Police in December 2007.


Thirdly, Gunit.
There is no mystery about the Mackenzies being moved into block 6 whilst awaiting a late flight home.  I can assure you that if room is available this is a common occurence at reasonable hotels (including, i imagine, decent aparthotels).  Sometimes hotels charge for this service, but often it is free gratis.  One has to ask the day before departure, and usually it is granted.

Why so much mis/disinformation Gunit?



PS
When are you going to acknowledge that the areas immediately in front of 5A front door and The patio (rear) door +++ where visible to a watcher, if there was one, on that western balcony in block 6


Please note
+++ = these other areas were visible too =
1)  the street that the parents walked when checking their children
2) The area outside Madeleines window
3) The gate and part steps that Gerry, kate and Matt went up and down when checking the children
4)  By leaning out a little, the tapas restaurant

However, no matter how far a watcher might have leaned out he would not have been able to see Jez leaving the little car park opposite the Tapas Reception.  This is because the balcony is recessed behind the building at its southern end.  This blocks the view of Jez as he left that little car park

I apologise if I have the wrong apartment, but would just ask why apartment 6 is assumed to be at the other end of the block? I know the ground floor flat opposite the McCann's is number 5.

The story was that Mackenzie had been interviewed again by OG. His original call was to tell what he heard Gerry saying on his phone on 3rd May about paedophiles.

I do not acknowledge that the front of 5A could be seen from that balcony.

[sadie]

I apologise if I have the wrong apartment, but would just ask why apartment 6 is assumed to be at the other end of the block? I know the ground floor flat opposite the McCann's is number 5.

I have already pointed out SIL's excellent photo to you.  That clearly shows that Neil Berrys apartment 606 is a long way away from the balcony on the west end of block 6, where a watcher might have been directing operations.  You tell us that the PJ used that apartment as their base.   No reason for them to go for a fag on the balcony at the other end of the building; the balcony where the fag ends were and withy superb views of all the necessary watching points.
Why didn't the PJ act when MacKenzie pointed the fag ends out to them?   Was it because Amaral had already decided on the morning after Madeleine vanished that the parents were responsible?

What a let down to Madeleine and the family.

The story was that Mackenzie had been interviewed again by OG. His original call was to tell what he heard Gerry saying on his phone on 3rd May about paedophiles.

I cant think why you are denying that Mackensie notified the Police in Dec 2007

From the statements, it is quite clear that he contacted the police in Leicestershire in Dec 2007

 3907 to 3908 Witness statement of Graham McKenzie 2007.12.06 (in English)

15-Processos  Volume XV Pages 3907 - 3908

snip-
On the day of our departure we had to move out of our apartment and Mark Warner gave us another to use during the day until we left.

It was across the road from the McCann's apartment and the public balcony overlooked the side of their building and the road. You could actually see the front and back of the building from that view point. I noticed on the balcony that there was a pile of cigarette butts as if there had been someone stood there for some time smoking. I thought that was odd , and it could have been someone watching the McCann's apartment to monitor their comings and goings.   -snip-

I dont know how you could miss this.  It was immediately below the statement that you quoted from ! £5%4%

I do not acknowledge that the front of 5A could be seen from that balcony.

As you yourself have shown with photographs there was a gap through the foliage which originally you said was overgrown (words to that effect).  For a signal from the watcher/director to be seen from outside 5A front door all the perp had to do was stand in the area immediately in front of the front door.  Perfect viewpoint in either direction. 

Any one leaving or entering 5A would have been seen by someone watching .   My photographs illustrated how the north end of the balcony had clear visibility of that area.  And the area in front of the front door and in front of Madeleines bedroom had a clear view of the balcony  over the road.  Signals could be passed between the two places.

Please acknowledge.
that the front of 5A could be seen from the 'watchers balcony' and vice versa.  You must by now know that it is true

[G-Unit]

I have already pointed out SIL's excellent photo to you.  That clearly shows that Neil Berrys apartment 606 is a long way away from the balcony on the west end of block 6, where a watcher might have been directing operations.  You tell us that the PJ used that apartment as their base.   No reason for them to go for a fag on the balcony at the other end of the building; the balcony where the fag ends were and withy superb views of all the necessary watching points.
Why didn't the PJ act when MacKenzie pointed the fag ends out to them?   Was it because Amaral had already decided on the morning after Madeleine vanished that the parents were responsible?

What a let down to Madeleine and the family.
I cant think why you are denying that Mackensie notified the Police in Dec 2007

From the statements, it is quite clear that he contacted the police in Leicestershire in Dec 2007

 3907 to 3908 Witness statement of Graham McKenzie 2007.12.06 (in English)

15-Processos  Volume XV Pages 3907 - 3908

snip-
On the day of our departure we had to move out of our apartment and Mark Warner gave us another to use during the day until we left.

It was across the road from the McCann's apartment and the public balcony overlooked the side of their building and the road. You could actually see the front and back of the building from that view point. I noticed on the balcony that there was a pile of cigarette butts as if there had been someone stood there for some time smoking. I thought that was odd , and it could have been someone watching the McCann's apartment to monitor their comings and goings.   -snip-

I dont know how you could miss this.  It was immediately below the statement that you quoted from ! £5%4%
As you yourself have shown with photographs there was a gap through the foliage which originally you said was overgrown (words to that effect).  For a signal from the watcher/director to be seen from outside 5A front door all the perp had to do was stand in the area immediately in front of the front door.  Perfect viewpoint in either direction. 

Any one leaving or entering 5A would have been seen by someone watching .   My photographs illustrated how the north end of the balcony had clear visibility of that area.  And the area in front of the front door and in front of Madeleines bedroom had a clear view of the balcony  over the road.  Signals could be passed between the two places.

Please acknowledge.
that the front of 5A could be seen from the 'watchers balcony' and vice versa.  You must by now know that it is true

I know where SIL says 606 is, I don't know if it's verified.

What I said was that Mackenzie doesn't mention telling the police about the cigarette butts until 2012.

You have not convinced me that the view from that balcony is as you describe it and you won't without providing evidence following the line of sight. 

[sadie]

I know where SIL says 606 is, I don't know if it's verified.

I have seen another photograph of that apartment and that was before SILs time on here.  Maybe it was Heris photo, I dont remember now.   But it identified exactly the same apartment. I  am happy to trust SIL on this and doubly so because of the previous photo

What I said was that Mackenzie doesn't mention telling the police about the cigarette butts until 2012

.
Read the newspaper report again Gunit. It confirms that Mackenzie reported it in his statement of December 2007

You have not convinced me that the view from that balcony is as you describe it and you won't without providing evidence following the line of sight.

I have always thought you as quiite intelligent gunit, but seems that you dont undertand that if someone outside the front door of 5A, Madeleines bedroom and the patio door can see the possible watcher on the balcony of block 6, then he can see those places too.


I am looking for you to confirm this, not out of rubbing your nose in it, but because when this topic comes up again in say 9 or 15 months time, I dont want you spouting the same old rubbish ... and then i will have to go thru all the same finding of photos etc and the huge typing chore, which for me isn't easy.

Please do the honourable thing and confirm that the areas immediately in front of the front door, Madeleines window and the patio door were visible to anyone who might hav e been watching / directing operations from that balcony on block t6

[G-Unit]

I have seen another photograph of that apartment and that was before SILs time on here.  Maybe it was Heris photo, I dont remember now.   But it identified exactly the same apartment. I  am happy to trust SIL on this and doubly so because of the previous photo
.
Read the newspaper report again Gunit. It confirms that Mackenzie reported it in his statement of December 2007

I have always thought you as quiite intelligent gunit, but seems that you dont undertand that if someone outside the front door of 5A, Madeleines bedroom and the patio door can see the possible watcher on the balcony of block 6, then he can see those places too.


I am looking for you to confirm this, not out of rubbing your nose in it, but because when this topic comes up again in say 9 or 15 months time, I dont want you spouting the same old rubbish ... and then i will have to go thru all the same finding of photos etc and the huge typing chore, which for me isn't easy.

Please do the honourable thing and confirm that the areas immediately in front of the front door, Madeleines window and the patio door were visible to anyone who might hav e been watching / directing operations from that balcony on block t6

Mackenzie contacted Crimestoppers on 16th September
'after reading about the McCann's telephone records being checked, in the Sunday Express dated 16/09/2007'.

The reason?

'He saw Mr Gerry McCann standing alone in the doorway at the rear of the apartment talking on his mobile telephone'.

Leicestershire police took his statement on 5th December at the request of the PJ.

In it Mackenzie mentioned seeing cigarette butts. He did not mention asking the Portuguese police to pick them up.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GRAHAM-MCKENZIE.htm

The police weren't mentioned until the newspaper article written in 2012.

You appeal to my honour, but you are happy to post photos on here which give the wrong impression because your photo has no vegetation so isn't a true picture of 5A on 3rd May 2007.

[Alice Purjorick]

If one is doing something surreptitious the best schools teach no smoking.
Not only can the glow be seen but the smell travels a long way thus giving away ones presence and'or drawing the attention you were trying avoid.
Just saying like. You don't have to believe it if it suits not to.

[G-Unit]

If one is doing something surreptitious the best schools teach no smoking.
Not only can the glow be seen but the smell travels a long way thus giving away ones presence and'or drawing the attention you were trying avoid.
Just saying like. You don't have to believe it if it suits not to.

Two very good points.

[sadie]

Mackenzie contacted Crimestoppers on 16th September
'after reading about the McCann's telephone records being checked, in the Sunday Express dated 16/09/2007'.

The reason?

'He saw Mr Gerry McCann standing alone in the doorway at the rear of the apartment talking on his mobile telephone'.

Leicestershire police took his statement on 5th December at the request of the PJ.

In it Mackenzie mentioned seeing cigarette butts. He did not mention asking the Portuguese police to pick them up.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GRAHAM-MCKENZIE.htm

The police weren't mentioned until the newspaper article written in 2012.

You appeal to my honour, but you are happy to post photos on here which give the wrong impression because your photo has no vegetation so isn't a true picture of 5A on 3rd May 2007.

You posted two photos gunit, of which one certainly was immediately after the time Madeleine vanished, because the Police fingerprint girl, was there.  The other photo was in the dark but it also clearly showed the gap between 5A and the trees.   The gap thru which it would have been possible for a watcher on that balcony opposite to signal to someone standing outside the front door recess or Madeleines window.   

I cant understand why you are unable to concede this when you have actually posted the images.  Surely you can see the facts staring you in the eyes?

[G-Unit]

You posted two photos gunit, of which one certainly was immediately after the time Madeleine vanished, because the Police fingerprint girl, was there.  The other photo was in the dark but it also clearly showed the gap between 5A and the trees.   The gap thru which it would have been possible for a watcher on that balcony opposite to signal to someone standing outside the front door recess or Madeleines window.   

I cant understand why you are unable to concede this when you have actually posted the images.  Surely you can see the facts staring you in the eyes?

I only wish I could but I don't know if someone on that balcony could see the front of 5A or vice versa so I can't.

[ShiningInLuz]

Are you talking at cross purposes here?

From the private balcony of 606, one cannot see the entrance to the Tapas zone, let alone the front or rear of 5A.

Mr Mackenzie does not say private balcony, he says public balcony, which is the access balcony at the front of block 6 (the car park end).

Now that balcony I have been up, twice from memory, because it is public, not private.

I did a revisit because we were debating whether or not one could see the front and rear of block 5 from there.  I was able to see both.  I cannot remember with certainty if I could see the front door of 5A, but from memory, I think I could.

This proved a limited amount because all of the time I have been interested in the case, the trees at the east end of block 5 car park had been removed.  So I do not have a view through the trees.  If one exists, Heri and the newspapers are potential sources.

I don't remember being able to see the Tapas Restaurant, short of doing a Tarzan over the balcony ledge.

The block is numbered 601 at the east end ground floor to 605 at the west end.  Then it is 606 on the 1st floor east end to 609 (from memory) at the west end.  I did check how it was numbered above at the west end, and from memory it was 613.

I can re-check all of this if it is critical, but I can't see how it is, given I cannot put the trees back in place.

Presumably Mr Mackenzie noticed the butts because he was close to them, but I have no certainty as to which apartment he was relocated to.

A year after the disappearance, Neil Berry thought he might have been in apartment 4G.  He was actually booked into 606.  Luckily his statement has enough information to confirm he was in block 6, 1 floor up.

[misty]

I only wish I could but I don't know if someone on that balcony could see the front of 5A or vice versa so I can't.

Hope this helps.
https://youtu.be/Zqoj-pfBUnY?t=3003   (filmed by Jon Corner?)


View of foliage & balcony at 51s
http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/exterior-shots-around-the-ocean-club-apartments-in-pria-news-footage/487715118



606, used by the PJ is at the eastern end of Block 6 - Pegasus confirmed this.