If Madeleine walked out of the apartment which door did she exit?

[Robittybob1]

David Payne says something quite significant in his rogatory.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
" Reply "Err we, you know, we ran up err to the apartment, you know, with, with err you know Kate and Gerry err and you know for me, I just wanted to know, as I say, about the access to the apartment, were those gates open, err because in my mind was that if the front door was shut there was no, you know there won't be, you know there was no way that she could have wandered out that way and nor would they have gained access in that way."  What he is saying is the front door would have been open had Madeleine left by the way, why because to close the door you need a key.  IMO He is saying even a abductor couldn't just slam the door shut.

[Robittybob1]

Matt Oldfield's rogatory solves the key issue.  "4078 'Okay. And this door here, what was the door like''
Reply 'Erm, brown, erm, big, brown and wood, brown and wood like. There was a lock, erm, it sort of, you know, one of those you turn twice with the key. And I think, and sort of I think a round, or was it like a lever handle, I can't remember what the handle was like, I think you had to turn it to go in and so it would snip, erm, you couldn't really shut it with the lock on, but I think if you didn't lock it up here you could then just open it and shut it, I think you had to actually lock it to, it wasn't like a Yale thing that, erm, stops you opening it again, I think'"

See what he says  "you had to turn it to go in and so it would snip, erm, you couldn't really shut it with the lock on," 

You could not just slam the door shut you had to withdraw the latch bolt and the secondary lock bolt.

[Carana]

Matt Oldfield's rogatory solves the key issue.  "4078 'Okay. And this door here, what was the door like''
Reply 'Erm, brown, erm, big, brown and wood, brown and wood like. There was a lock, erm, it sort of, you know, one of those you turn twice with the key. And I think, and sort of I think a round, or was it like a lever handle, I can't remember what the handle was like, I think you had to turn it to go in and so it would snip, erm, you couldn't really shut it with the lock on, but I think if you didn't lock it up here you could then just open it and shut it, I think you had to actually lock it to, it wasn't like a Yale thing that, erm, stops you opening it again, I think'"

See what he says  "you had to turn it to go in and so it would snip, erm, you couldn't really shut it with the lock on," 

You could not just slam the door shut you had to withdraw the latch bolt and the secondary lock bolt.

Still clear as mud for me, Robert.

GM 10 May:
He clarifies that the main door was always closed but not necessarily locked with the key.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

I'm aware that my door doesn't quite look the same, and it may not work along the same principle, but at least I can see what I'm not clear about.

I can shut my door from the outside without a key by banging it (which I prefer not to do) or sometimes the wind bangs it shut on my behalf if there's even a slightly open window and a sudden draft. 

I don't need a key to close it from the inside (and without a key it can't be opened from the outside without picking the lock).

I also have the option of turning the key (from the outside, or a knob from the inside) which shoves out a bolt from a different hole below the triangular latch thing). And that's all in the same one-key mechanism.

[sadie]

Matt Oldfield's rogatory solves the key issue.  "4078 'Okay. And this door here, what was the door like''
Reply 'Erm, brown, erm, big, brown and wood, brown and wood like. There was a lock, erm, it sort of, you know, one of those you turn twice with the key. And I think, and sort of I think a round, or was it like a lever handle, I can't remember what the handle was like, I think you had to turn it to go in and so it would snip, erm, you couldn't really shut it with the lock on, but I think if you didn't lock it up here you could then just open it and shut it, I think you had to actually lock it to, it wasn't like a Yale thing that, erm, stops you opening it again, I think'"

See what he says  "you had to turn it to go in and so it would snip, erm, you couldn't really shut it with the lock on," 

You could not just slam the door shut you had to withdraw the latch bolt and the secondary lock bolt.

Assuming your analysis is correct, Rob

If the front door was used for entry and exit, that very fact shows that, upon exit,  a key had to be used to pull the door to, IMO.  So a key had to have been obtained from someone. 

[Angelo222]

Assuming your analysis is correct, Rob

If the front door was used for entry and exit, that very fact shows that, upon exit,  a key had to be used to pull the door to, IMO.  So a key had to have been obtained from someone. 

A staff member at OC, I wonder ?

No Sadie, you still don't appear to understand what happens. 

You can pull the door closed using the knob but a key is needed to gain access again.  If you forget your key and the patio door is locked you have to get a member of staff to open the front door using their pass key.

See photo below, the doorknob has no function other than being something to pull in order to close the door from the outside.  If inside one doesn't require a key, all one has to do is pull a lever on the lock (see bottom pic).

The point of all this is that the front door can be easily opened from the inside unless it is locked using the key.

[sadie]

No Sadie, you still don't appear to understand what happens. 

You can pull the door closed using the knob but a key is needed to gain access again.  If you forget your key and the patio door is locked you have to get a member of staff to open the front door using their pass key.

See photos below, the doorknob has no function other than being something to pull in order to close the door from the outside.  If inside one doesn't require a key, all one has to do is pull a lever on the lock.

The point of all this is that the front door can be easily opened from the inside unless it is locked using the key.

OK, so IYO the door can be closed using the knob alone.  Using that there would be two problems IMO:

1)  It would be a noisy closure cos', from your images, the outside knob is NOT attached to the lock mechanism .... so it would be a slam the door closed rather than twist the knob and close quietly.  Hardly a suitable method of closing the door for a burglar ...Eh ?
 
2)   Fingerprints would be on the knob. 

Better to pull closed with a key than use the knob.  Much quieter and no fingerprints.

AIMO, except for the facts.

I think there was an abduction, as you know.

[Angelo222]

OK, so IYO the door can be closed using the knob alone.  Using that there would be two problems IMO:

1)  It would be a noisy closure cos', from your images, the outside knob is NOT attached to the lock mechanism .... so it would be a slam the door closed rather than twist the knob and close quietly.  Hardly a suitable method of closing the door for a burglar ...Eh ?
 
2)   Fingerprints would be on the knob. 

Better to pull closed with a key than use the knob.  Much quieter and no fingerprints.

AIMO, except for the facts.

I think there was an abduction, as you know.

1. The actuator is tapered to allow pull closure using the knob. No noise at all.

2. No fingerprints if gloved.  You have no evidence to support your claim of an inside job Sadie so as it stands it is merely your opinion.  You might be right or you might be completely wrong, the police have never revealed their thoughts on this.  Most probably because abduction have never been established.

[Eleanor]

This is all getting a bit too much for me.

These are the same locks we have in France.  They can be closed without banging, but only double locked with the final key turn.
Locking from inside is easy and requires no key.  As is opening.

[Robittybob1]

Assuming your analysis is correct, Rob

If the front door was used for entry and exit, that very fact shows that, upon exit,  a key had to be used to pull the door to, IMO.  So a key had to have been obtained from someone. 

You are not taking into account the special situation here in 5A of the patio door being unlocked.  As Eleanor says "Locking from inside is easy and requires no key"  So it is possible for a person to come in through the front door, lock it from the inside, as Eleanor says, and neatly leave via the patio door.

In fact that is what Gerry describes what he does at the 9:05 PM check.  He uses the key to enter the apartment, single locks the front door manually from the inside, but later leaves by the patio door.

[Eleanor]

You are not taking into account the special situation here in 5A of the patio door being unlocked.  As Eleanor says "Locking from inside is easy and requires no key"  So it is possible for a person to come in through the front door, lock it from the inside, as Eleanor says, and neatly leave via the patio door.

In fact that is what Gerry describes what he does at the 9:05 PM check.  He uses the key to enter the apartment, single locks the front door manually from the inside, but later leaves by the patio door.

Would it not make more sense to come in by the Patio Door and to leave by the front door which needs no key to exit?

This has always been my opinion of what happened.

[Robittybob1]

1. The actuator is tapered to allow pull closure using the knob. No noise at all.

2. No fingerprints if gloved.  You have no evidence to support your claim of an inside job Sadie so as it stands it is merely your opinion.  You might be right or you might be completely wrong, the police have never revealed their thoughts on this.  Most probably because abduction have never been established.

I would be happier if you had said where the person was standing when doing these.  My understanding these operations could be done from inside the apartment but not from the outside position.

[Robittybob1]

Would it not make more sense to come in by the Patio Door and to leave by the front door which needs no key to exit?

This has always been my opinion of what happened.

Well after spending all day on studying the use of the keys (note: they were an issue for all of the Tapas 9 families) no one plainly states you could just pull the front door closed after you without a key.  If I have understood it correctly the locks had been designed so they would never slam shut in a breeze leaving a person on the outside but the only key to the apartment on the inside, or a similar situation like that.

[Angelo222]

This is all getting a bit too much for me.

These are the same locks we have in France.  They can be closed without banging, but only double locked with the final key turn.
Locking from inside is easy and requires no key.  As is opening.

The UK doesn't have locks exactly like those at Ocean Club so it is easy to get confused but a good explanation from you Eleanor.   

[Angelo222]

Would it not make more sense to come in by the Patio Door and to leave by the front door which needs no key to exit?

This has always been my opinion of what happened.

Might have been except that Jez saw him emerge from the patio area.

[Angelo222]

I would be happier if you had said where the person was standing when doing these.  My understanding these operations could be done from inside the apartment but not from the outside position.

Entering via the front door from the outside always requires a key if the door is closed and regardless if it is single locked or double locked.