Author Topic: UK police guilty of flawed tunnel vision in hunt for Maddie McCann  (Read 88249 times)

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Offline Eleanor

Re: UK police guilty of flawed tunnel vision in hunt for Maddie McCann
« Reply #405 on: May 19, 2017, 05:31:33 PM »
The process he would have gone through at Faro would have been a variant of that used re Kate and Gerry, but somewhat more tortuous.

In that room there would have been Sr Ribeiro, his lawyer, probably at least 2 PJ officers, probably at least 2 OG officers, a translator, and possibly a support staff.  Somewhere around 7 strangers.  Then the little matter of 250 questions, and handling the language translation.

He had travelled from Luz to Faro the day before, but had to hang around to the next day before starting.  Most people would find such an interview somewhat stressful.  It is pretty obvious from the Panorama episode that Sr Monteiro would find it more than somewhat stressful.

The Panorama interview was the BBC presenter, a translator and a video man.  It was on Sr Ribeiro's home turf, near to where he lives, he hadn't just been made an arguido, and it wasn't 250 questions long.  But it was still clearly stressful.

Is this man fit enough to be part of a burglary team?  Has this man been keeping secret the truth behind the disappearance of Madeleine McCann for the last 10 years?

Almost certainly not.  But this is only my opinion.  However, he must have agreed to the Television Interview.  And I cannot agree that he was treated badly because he was clearly not.

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: UK police guilty of flawed tunnel vision in hunt for Maddie McCann
« Reply #406 on: May 19, 2017, 06:48:09 PM »
Almost certainly not.  But this is only my opinion.  However, he must have agreed to the Television Interview.  And I cannot agree that he was treated badly because he was clearly not.
Sorry, he was clearly not what?

Treated badly by Panorama?  Who asked him if he was part of a burglary team and if he was involved in Madeleine's death?

Or badly by OG, who did a good impression of the Spanish Inquisition?

I presume you must have different standards of treatment in your neck of the woods.
What's up, old man?

Offline G-Unit

Re: UK police guilty of flawed tunnel vision in hunt for Maddie McCann
« Reply #407 on: May 20, 2017, 08:32:13 AM »
'The case might rebound on them'?  You mean, that efforts to track down Madeleine's abductor might,
 ultimately, prove unsuccessful?


According to A C Rowley the original investigation 'dealt with' the question of parental involvement, so Operation Grange didn't investigate them as possible suspects. Woke and wandered was dismissed because Madeleine wasn't old enough to leave and start a new life. Abduction was therefore seen as the answer to the disappearance and they investigated that.

Their only hope now is to find an abductor because if they don't, they may have to explain in more detail their reasons for restricting their investigation. The Supreme Court judges in Portugal have recently pointed out that the archived investigation had unanswered questions about the parents. There is also the possibility that Madeleine woke and wandered to find her absent parents, rather than to 'start a new life'. (I still can't believe he said that)
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Offline carlymichelle

Re: UK police guilty of flawed tunnel vision in hunt for Maddie McCann
« Reply #408 on: May 20, 2017, 08:52:49 AM »
According to A C Rowley the original investigation 'dealt with' the question of parental involvement, so Operation Grange didn't investigate them as possible suspects. Woke and wandered was dismissed because Madeleine wasn't old enough to leave and start a new life. Abduction was therefore seen as the answer to the disappearance and they investigated that.

Their only hope now is to find an abductor because if they don't, they may have to explain in more detail their reasons for restricting their investigation. The Supreme Court judges in Portugal have recently pointed out that the archived investigation had unanswered questions about the parents. There is also the possibility that Madeleine woke and wandered to find her absent parents, rather than to 'start a new life'. (I still can't believe he said that)

i can believe   maddie  asked  kate why wasnt she and gerry there  when  sean and her  cried  3 and  4 year olds  dont  hold back they are very straight  foward i have seen my   4 year old niece get angry  ........ and express her opinion

Offline G-Unit

Re: UK police guilty of flawed tunnel vision in hunt for Maddie McCann
« Reply #409 on: May 20, 2017, 09:36:51 AM »
i can believe   maddie  asked  kate why wasnt she and gerry there  when  sean and her  cried  3 and  4 year olds  dont  hold back they are very straight  foward i have seen my   4 year old niece get angry  ........ and express her opinion

According to her parents Madeleine wasn't angry; she wasn't even looking for an answer, apparently. Her parents let it pass too, not asking her to tell them anything more. Only after she disappeared did they think it might be significant.
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Offline Brietta

Re: UK police guilty of flawed tunnel vision in hunt for Maddie McCann
« Reply #410 on: May 20, 2017, 10:39:47 AM »
According to A C Rowley the original investigation 'dealt with' the question of parental involvement, so Operation Grange didn't investigate them as possible suspects. Woke and wandered was dismissed because Madeleine wasn't old enough to leave and start a new life. Abduction was therefore seen as the answer to the disappearance and they investigated that.

Their only hope now is to find an abductor because if they don't, they may have to explain in more detail their reasons for restricting their investigation. The Supreme Court judges in Portugal have recently pointed out that the archived investigation had unanswered questions about the parents. There is also the possibility that Madeleine woke and wandered to find her absent parents, rather than to 'start a new life'. (I still can't believe he said that)

Exactly what of the above post has a cite ... and what is opinion?  I see no caveat.  But I can see where I think what may be your opinion is at odds with the actuality of what Rowley did say and what you think Rowley may have said.


Mr Rowley said: "We've got some critical lines of inquiry, those link to particular hypotheses.

"But I'm not going to discuss those because those are very much live investigation.

"We've got some thoughts on what we think the most likely explanations might be, and we are pursuing those."

He described the possibility of a "burglary gone wrong" as a "sensible hypothesis" which has not been"entirely ruled out".

The senior officer was asked about the theory of a sex predator being responsible for Madeleine's disappearance.

Mr Rowley said: "That's been one key line of inquiry. The reality is in the modern world in any urban area if you cast your net widely you will find a whole pattern of offences.

"You will find sex offenders who live nearby. And those coincidences need to be sifted out, what's a coincidence and what may be linked to the investigation that you are currently doing.

"Offences which may be linked have to belooked at and either ruled in or ruled out."

Mr Rowley said there was still a "lot unknown" in the case, adding: "All the different hypotheses have to remain open."
http://www.itv.com/news/2017-04-25/police-pursuing-significant-lines-of-inquiry-in-madeleine-mccann-case/
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Heriberto Janosch

Re: UK police guilty of flawed tunnel vision in hunt for Maddie McCann
« Reply #411 on: May 20, 2017, 10:44:37 AM »
THE MADELEINE MCCANN'S ABDUCTION: THE TRUE MYSTERY

Scotland Yard Operation Grange officially said in April 2017 that "n 2013 the team identified four individuals [including José Carlos and Ricardo] they declared to be suspects in the case. This led to interviews at a police station in Faro facilitated by the local Policia Judiciária, and the search of a large area of wasteland which is close to Madeleine's apartment in Praia Da Luz. The enquiries did not find any evidence to further implicate the individuals in the disappearance and so they are no longer subject of further investigation" (Mark Rowley).

Portuguese Polícia Judiciária officially said in May 2017: "We never saw or looked at those people [José Carlos and Ricardo] as suspects of the crime" (Pedro do Carmo).

This is the true mystery in Madeleine McCann's abduction: why two police forces have such a different view on the same subject? Why the Portuguese police never considered them suspects? Why the British police keep them as suspects for more than three years, investing a lot of money in their investigation? How can it be explained? Can the Portuguese and British police ever explain it? They should explain it.

http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2017/05/the-madeleine-mccanns-abduction-true.html

Offline jassi

Re: UK police guilty of flawed tunnel vision in hunt for Maddie McCann
« Reply #412 on: May 20, 2017, 10:59:42 AM »
THE MADELEINE MCCANN'S ABDUCTION: THE TRUE MYSTERY

Scotland Yard Operation Grange officially said in April 2017 that "n 2013 the team identified four individuals [including José Carlos and Ricardo] they declared to be suspects in the case. This led to interviews at a police station in Faro facilitated by the local Policia Judiciária, and the search of a large area of wasteland which is close to Madeleine's apartment in Praia Da Luz. The enquiries did not find any evidence to further implicate the individuals in the disappearance and so they are no longer subject of further investigation" (Mark Rowley).

Portuguese Polícia Judiciária officially said in May 2017: "We never saw or looked at those people [José Carlos and Ricardo] as suspects of the crime" (Pedro do Carmo).

This is the true mystery in Madeleine McCann's abduction: why two police forces have such a different view on the same subject? Why the Portuguese police never considered them suspects? Why the British police keep them as suspects for more than three years, investing a lot of money in their investigation? How can it be explained? Can the Portuguese and British police ever explain it? They should explain it.

http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2017/05/the-madeleine-mccanns-abduction-true.html

I cannot give any explanation, but 3 years does seem a long time to investigate before admitting defeat and clearing them, particularly as PJ seemed to have no interest.

Looks as if they were maybe correct.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 11:08:27 AM by jassi »
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline G-Unit

Re: UK police guilty of flawed tunnel vision in hunt for Maddie McCann
« Reply #413 on: May 20, 2017, 11:11:29 AM »
According to A C Rowley the original investigation 'dealt with' the question of parental involvement, so Operation Grange didn't investigate them as possible suspects. Woke and wandered was dismissed because Madeleine wasn't old enough to leave and start a new life. Abduction was therefore seen as the answer to the disappearance and they investigated that.

Their only hope now is to find an abductor because if they don't, they may have to explain in more detail their reasons for restricting their investigation. The Supreme Court judges in Portugal have recently pointed out that the archived investigation had unanswered questions about the parents. There is also the possibility that Madeleine woke and wandered to find her absent parents, rather than to 'start a new life'. (I still can't believe he said that)

Here you are, Brietta;

firstly the involvement of the parents, that was dealt with at the time by the original investigation by the Portuguese. We had a look at all the material and we are happy that was all dealt with...........

Just to be clear you did not interview the McCanns as potential suspects?
MR: No

In terms of Andy using the word abduction, she was not old enough to set off and start her own life. However she left that apartment, she has been abducted. It is not a 20-year-old who has gone missing and who has made a decision to start a new life, this is a young girl who is missing and at the heart of this has been an abduction.
http://news.met.police.uk/documents/transcript-of-interview-with-ac-mark-rowley-66743
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Offline G-Unit

Re: UK police guilty of flawed tunnel vision in hunt for Maddie McCann
« Reply #414 on: May 20, 2017, 11:18:29 AM »
Exactly what of the above post has a cite ... and what is opinion?  I see no caveat.  But I can see where I think what may be your opinion is at odds with the actuality of what Rowley did say and what you think Rowley may have said.


Mr Rowley said: "We've got some critical lines of inquiry, those link to particular hypotheses.

"But I'm not going to discuss those because those are very much live investigation.

"We've got some thoughts on what we think the most likely explanations might be, and we are pursuing those."

He described the possibility of a "burglary gone wrong" as a "sensible hypothesis" which has not been"entirely ruled out".

The senior officer was asked about the theory of a sex predator being responsible for Madeleine's disappearance.

Mr Rowley said: "That's been one key line of inquiry. The reality is in the modern world in any urban area if you cast your net widely you will find a whole pattern of offences.

"You will find sex offenders who live nearby. And those coincidences need to be sifted out, what's a coincidence and what may be linked to the investigation that you are currently doing.

"Offences which may be linked have to belooked at and either ruled in or ruled out."

Mr Rowley said there was still a "lot unknown" in the case, adding: "All the different hypotheses have to remain open."
http://www.itv.com/news/2017-04-25/police-pursuing-significant-lines-of-inquiry-in-madeleine-mccann-case/

All his hypothesises seem to be connected with abduction, however.
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Offline barrier

Re: UK police guilty of flawed tunnel vision in hunt for Maddie McCann
« Reply #415 on: May 20, 2017, 11:50:55 AM »
I cannot give any explanation, but 3 years does seem a long time to investigate before admitting defeat and clearing them, particularly as PJ seemed to have no interest.

Looks as if they were maybe correct.
It doesn't seem as if OG went to Portugal in those intervening three years,what investigation?
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline barrier

Re: UK police guilty of flawed tunnel vision in hunt for Maddie McCann
« Reply #416 on: May 20, 2017, 11:55:09 AM »
You have the inside-track on what Operation Grange is investigating, do you?

Do I need one to form an opinion.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: UK police guilty of flawed tunnel vision in hunt for Maddie McCann
« Reply #417 on: May 20, 2017, 11:57:02 AM »
Do I need one to form an opinion.

Some opinions are better (or less well) informed than others.

Offline Carana

Re: UK police guilty of flawed tunnel vision in hunt for Maddie McCann
« Reply #418 on: May 20, 2017, 12:12:09 PM »
THE MADELEINE MCCANN'S ABDUCTION: THE TRUE MYSTERY

Scotland Yard Operation Grange officially said in April 2017 that "n 2013 the team identified four individuals [including José Carlos and Ricardo] they declared to be suspects in the case. This led to interviews at a police station in Faro facilitated by the local Policia Judiciária, and the search of a large area of wasteland which is close to Madeleine's apartment in Praia Da Luz. The enquiries did not find any evidence to further implicate the individuals in the disappearance and so they are no longer subject of further investigation" (Mark Rowley).

Portuguese Polícia Judiciária officially said in May 2017: "We never saw or looked at those people [José Carlos and Ricardo] as suspects of the crime" (Pedro do Carmo).

This is the true mystery in Madeleine McCann's abduction: why two police forces have such a different view on the same subject? Why the Portuguese police never considered them suspects? Why the British police keep them as suspects for more than three years, investing a lot of money in their investigation? How can it be explained? Can the Portuguese and British police ever explain it? They should explain it.

http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2017/05/the-madeleine-mccanns-abduction-true.html

Hmm. "Suspect" is quite a loaded term.

I haven't been able to find where the Met actually stated that they were "suspects".

A Guardian article concerning the original 38 people they wanted to interview modified its headline:


"• This article was amended on 5 July 2013. The headline on the original described the 38 "persons of interest" as suspects; they are potential suspects."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/jul/04/madeleine-mccann-police-target-38-suspects

As far as I'm aware, a "person of interest" is someone the police want to interview in more depth to clarify any grey areas that appear as a potential red flag. Following the interviews, they may want to keep them on the back burner for a time while they check out the results of the new interview. I don't see anything odd in that from their perspective, although I can imagine that it must be daunting for the person in question to have that cloud hanging over them until the police have come to their conclusions.

What term did Pedro do Carmo actually use? "Suspeitos"? If so, it's apparently as loaded in Portuguese as it is in English.

I can see two issues: the media's misuse of the term "suspects" (the tabloids are the usual culprits, but in the article above even the Guardian prior to rectification), and the difference in legislation between the two countries.

Unless the PT legislation has changed yet again, the last time I looked arguido status sets the clock in motion with a specific time frame within which the investigation needs to be concluded (barring an argument for exceptional circumstances, which adds a layer of bureaucratic hassle).

And, again the last time I checked, there was no specific legislation concerning the arguido status timeframe in the event of a foreign investigation equivalent to questioning "under caution".

My conclusion - for the moment - is that the PJ would have been quite happy to conduct those interviews under the umbrella of the Met investigation as it doesn't set the time ball rolling from their side and enables them to keep their own investigation open.


Offline Brietta

Re: UK police guilty of flawed tunnel vision in hunt for Maddie McCann
« Reply #419 on: May 20, 2017, 12:13:36 PM »
Here you are, Brietta;

firstly the involvement of the parents, that was dealt with at the time by the original investigation by the Portuguese. We had a look at all the material and we are happy that was all dealt with...........

Just to be clear you did not interview the McCanns as potential suspects?
MR: No

In terms of Andy using the word abduction, she was not old enough to set off and start her own life. However she left that apartment, she has been abducted. It is not a 20-year-old who has gone missing and who has made a decision to start a new life, this is a young girl who is missing and at the heart of this has been an abduction.
http://news.met.police.uk/documents/transcript-of-interview-with-ac-mark-rowley-66743

A very clear systematic approach to cold case investigation is outlined by Rowley in which review of evidence is taken back to the very beginning to analyse anything which may have originally been overlooked or evidence which can be clarified in light of fresh developments or improved forensic  development.

The beginning of Madeleine's case was around ten pm on the third of May 2007 against a backdrop of a side of Luz the visitors seldom see.  It is risible in my opinion to suggest the Scotland Yard investigation didn't go back there and check out the case from the beginning.

Indeed as Rowley has said ...

But we had the data available and we worked with the Portuguese and that was part of the background to do with
phone data and various sightings. There was enough there to say, not to prove the case, but there was something worth looking at in more detail and that’s what we did.
Transcript AC Rowley interview

That indeed was a huge part of the time Scotland Yard spent on trying to unravel what happened to Madeleine on the night of the 3rd.

That investigative avenue was not investigated by the first investigation.  Why it wasn't is possibly one of the more intriguing aspects of Madeleine's case but there is little doubt that it should have been.
Building a picture of what happened using a step by step process to discard some information and to progress to the next step retaining and using some information gives the bigger picture.
The proper interrogation of the phone records did not occur.
Operation Grange did what had not been done ... Madeleine's case could not progress until it was.

In answer to the interviewer, Rowley also described other aspects of the process in a cold case inquiry concerning aspects which had already come under close scrutiny and which had been conclusively resolved.
In my opinion that does eliminate the risk of groundhog day

Q: One of the biggest criticisms of the Portuguese investigation, which they acknowledge as well, is that they did not interrogate the parents from the start, if only to eliminate them.
When you started your investigation, you appear to have done the same. Did you formally interview the McCann’s under caution, ever consider them as suspects?

MR: So when we started, we started five or so years into this and there is already a lot of ground been covered,

we don’t cover the same ground,

what we do is pull all the material we had at the start,
all the Portuguese material,
private detective material,
with all the work that had been done,
what that evidence supports,
what rules these lines of enquiry out,
what keeps them open and you progress forward.

It would be no different if there were a cold case in London, a missing person from 1990, we would go back to square one look at all the material and if the material was convincing it ruled out that line of enquiry we would look somewhere else. So you reflect on the original material, you challenge it, don’t take it at face value. You don’t restart an investigation pretending it doesn’t exist and do all the same enquiries again that is not constructive.
Transcript AC Rowley interview


In my opinion that is a very clear outline of how the task of finding Madeleine was was addressed and I have no doubt all the proper procedures were followed with her at the centre of the endeavours of everyone involved.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....