Who was the mystery couple?

[Robittybob1]

"She adds that, after having spoken to the McCann couple, she spoke to the resort manager, and after identifying herself, asked him whether there had been a break-in in the apartment where the child was, to which he replied no but that the door was open as were the window blinds, which, according to Kate, should have been closed but were found open."

I fully understand there were no signs of forced entry, so is that is what is meant by "break-in"? 
What is the true definition of breaking and entry?

breaking and entering
v., n. entering a residence or other enclosed property through the slightest amount of force (even pushing open a door), without authorization. If there is intent to commit a crime, this is burglary. If there is no such intent, the breaking and entering alone is probably at least illegal trespass, which is a misdemeanor crime. (See: burglary, trespass).
https://www.justia.com/criminal/docs/uniform-crime-reporting-handbook/burglary.html
"Burglary—Unlawful Entry—No Force
The entry of a structure in a Burglary—Unlawful Entry—No Force (5b) situation is achieved by use of an unlocked door or window. The element of trespass to the structure is essential in this category, which includes thefts from open garages, open warehouses, open or unlocked dwellings, and open or unlocked common basement areas in apartment houses where entry is achieved by other than the tenant who has lawful access."

So as soon as the burglar reaches inside he has unlawfully entered a building. There maybe no break-in just unlawful entry no force.

[Robittybob1]

The woman is indefensible as far as I am concerned.

• she arrived by her own invitation at the scene of the alleged abduction waving her 'credentials' around
• she was known to none ... neither the police nor the victim's parents nor any in their party
• not surprisingly the police would have assumed she was there in an official capacity and the victims having seen her coming from police lines would have assumed she was with the police
• she made unprofessional value judgements which she 'shared' without verification
• don't forget she had approached a team of professionals who very quickly assessed that they had perhaps been invaded by exactly the type of person police usually take great pains to protect victims from and who questioned her presence
• she took it upon herself ... who did this woman think she was??? ... to attempt to isolate and further upset the grieving mother if such a thing were possible ... so that she could probe further into things that did not concern her

I think there will be few who think that is either appropriate or professional behaviour.  She was ushered away from the scene and the person who did that apparently became the victim of her spite ... why else write an anonymous letter associating him with the vilest association possible with not the slightest indication of veracity?
What was her intention in doing that if not malice?
In my opinion, Yvonne Martin did not cover herself in glory as far as this episode involving her was concerned and I have often wondered what her work superiors made of her behaviour when they learned what she had done.

She had some credentials with her and in her role she may have been allowed to do this in the case of British citizens.  It might be like an SPCA inspector who can't ignore cases of cruelty, but has to act.  I don't know what her authorities were.

"At this moment, the witness notices that the couple began to have doubts about her capacity and she immediately showed them her official documents and credentials issued by the British government to calm them down.

Gerry took her documents and showed them to the third person and told him that they were authentic and were certified by the police.

At this moment, the witness wishes to clarify that, in England, anyone who works with children, whether a doctor, police officer or social worker, has to have a proper credential certified by the police and that this was one of the documents she showed to the McCanns. "  She must have felt she had the authority to approach the citizens.

[Brietta]

She had some credentials with her and in her role she may have been allowed to do this in the case of British citizens.  It might be like an SPCA inspector who can't ignore cases of cruelty, but has to act.  I don't know what her authorities were.

"At this moment, the witness notices that the couple began to have doubts about her capacity and she immediately showed them her official documents and credentials issued by the British government to calm them down.

Gerry took her documents and showed them to the third person and told him that they were authentic and were certified by the police.

At this moment, the witness wishes to clarify that, in England, anyone who works with children, whether a doctor, police officer or social worker, has to have a proper credential certified by the police and that this was one of the documents she showed to the McCanns. "  She must have felt she had the authority to approach the citizens.

What does one do when introducing oneself in a professional capacity?  Particularly if one is inquisitive about the extra sensitive circumstances regarding a suspected abduction of a child.

Without a shadow of doubt one establishes one's identity and what one's remit and capacity to help might be.

Yvonne Martin only tried to establish who she was once her targets became suspicious of her presence.  She had no locus there she had no authorisation from anyone in authority to be there. She was a lone wolf who imposed herself without any attempt to contact superiors in Britain or anyone in authority in Portugal to ascertain if there was a proper role for her.
Quite obviously as far as anyone at all was concerned particularly the Policia Judiciaria she was superfluous to requirements.

Her inadequacies appear to have been almost immediately apparent to those on the ground on the day of her intervention.

Her subsequent vile poison pen attempt to destroy the good name and life of someone who blocked her progress on that day should in my opinion flag up that the nature of an individual capable of such aberration is cause for concern.

[misty]

What does one do when introducing oneself in a professional capacity?  Particularly if one is inquisitive about the extra sensitive circumstances regarding a suspected abduction of a child.

Without a shadow of doubt one establishes one's identity and what one's remit and capacity to help might be.

Yvonne Martin only tried to establish who she was once her targets became suspicious of her presence.  She had no locus there she had no authorisation from anyone in authority to be there. She was a lone wolf who imposed herself without any attempt to contact superiors in Britain or anyone in authority in Portugal to ascertain if there was a proper role for her.
Quite obviously as far as anyone at all was concerned particularly the Policia Judiciaria she was superfluous to requirements.

Her inadequacies appear to have been almost immediately apparent to those on the ground on the day of her intervention.

Her subsequent vile poison pen attempt to destroy the good name and life of someone who blocked her progress on that day should in my opinion flag up that the nature of an individual capable of such aberration is cause for concern.

I question her motives, too. Shortly after Luz, she went to to be a senior figure in CAFCASS, who have been the subject of much controversy especially in the field of forced adoptions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RvKe2U6QLs

[misty]

I cannot locate a photo, but the man is definitely David Payne.

David Payne rogatory:

1485 "Alright, okay well that's the end of the phone traffic, one fin, one question or one person I'd like to speak to you about is Yvonne MARTIN. Do you know a person called Yvonne MARTIN''
  01:34:03 Reply "Yvonne MARTIN''


1485 "Social Worker.'
  Reply "Right. Oh, okay, err there was a lady who was there on the err when me, when me and Kate were waiting on the err morning you know after Madeleine had disappeared err there was err a photographer who was living in the area who err approached us and was just saying ah I used to work for the Daily Mirror, he gave his card and then this woman came up and started err chatting to us who err essentially just said ah I've got many years of experience you know and just started to really try and again force their selves in the situation a bit rather than just saying look I'm around if you need me err you know, so basically I just said it wasn't you know appropriate at the time, could she leave us alone and err but I must admit I didn't know what her, that was you know, that was, and she was, you know she said she was trained for many years as a Social Worker and was out there now err and was offering her help, but not in a particularly helpful way and she appeared you know, and that was on the you know the morning, I don't know somewhere perhaps between nine and ten o' clock in the morning. Err you know I'm sure, sure she'd been at, you know, she popped in there and you know she was around the area, she was seen again, but I mean I didn't have any more contact with her then but at the time it wasn't particularly helpful. Err I can't really say any more than that.'


01:35:47 1485 "Did you know her before that meeting''
  Reply "Err no.'


1485 "Did you speak to the MCCANN'S about it''
  Reply "Err we, yeah we spoke in the context of you know that was completely inappropriate the way that she was trying to deal with it, it's like she was trying to council Kate there and then in the thick of, you know, they're still trying to establish what's going on and what was happening err so you know I spoke to, you know I'm sure I mentioned her to Kate and Gerry you know within a short space of time, you know within twenty four hours of it happening. Err you know, just an example I, you know I was with Kate for quite a number of hours where I was sat with her at the err Police Station in Portim' and everything and you know weeks later she said who was I sat with, you know, and it was that, its that kind of thing you know I'm sure you know I spoke to them about it there and then within twenty four hours but err you know nothing was really mentioned a great deal about her later on or you know it was the, the, you know pretty much you know the conversation was dealt, you know dealt with it there and then and it wasn't, you know, perhaps I mentioned it to the others saying you know and if she popped up here and there you know other people might have mentioned her but she wasn't something that kind of like was the focus of the conversations that we had subsequently.'


1485 "Yeah.'
  01:37:15 Reply "Err for that morning.'


1485 "Did you advise the MCCANN'S to turn to her''
  Reply "Not at all, no.'


1485 "Not at all''
  Reply "Not at all. She was someone I'd certainly say to, to keep clear of you know and I, and I think pretty much I was saying look you know, appreciate your concern at this stage but you know it's not the right time to be talking to her, if you want to leave a card then you know perhaps there might be a time in the future but you know can you just leave us please, and that was you know the basics of the conversation that I had with her. Err you know her timing was just completely off, err you know there was, I say there was someone else who visited on the night that she was abducted, I think she was from the upstairs and she was again you know trying to say there, there Kate, you're alright, and again it was just completely inappropriate timing.'


1485 "Yeah.'
  Reply "I didn't think there was anything sinister about it I just thought it was people who didn't really perhaps have an insight into you know what has gone on and what was good timing and what wasn't. I never really thought anything much more about either of them.'

---

I agree it was Mr P. but I was concerned about the accuracy of YM's recollection in her statement made 5 weeks after the event - Mr P was wearing a striped T-Shirt not a dark polo shirt (polo shirts normally collared?) & I can't see a scar on his face.

This is something I haven't noticed before - who was this woman from upstairs?

"Err you know her timing was just completely off, err you know there was, I say there was someone else who visited on the night that she was abducted, I think she was from the upstairs and she was again you know trying to say there, there Kate, you're alright, and again it was just completely inappropriate timing.'


1485 "Yeah.'
  Reply "I didn't think there was anything sinister about it I just thought it was people who didn't really perhaps have an insight into you know what has gone on and what was good timing and what wasn't. I never really thought anything much more about either of them.'

[Brietta]

I question her motives, too. Shortly after Luz, she went to to be a senior figure in CAFCASS, who have been the subject of much controversy especially in the field of forced adoptions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RvKe2U6QLs

Thanks for that information, Misty, very interesting indeed.

[Robittybob1]

I agree it was Mr P. but I was concerned about the accuracy of YM's recollection in her statement made 5 weeks after the event - Mr P was wearing a striped T-Shirt not a dark polo shirt (polo shirts normally collared?) & I can't see a scar on his face.

This is something I haven't noticed before - who was this woman from upstairs?

"Err you know her timing was just completely off, err you know there was, I say there was someone else who visited on the night that she was abducted, I think she was from the upstairs and she was again you know trying to say there, there Kate, you're alright, and again it was just completely inappropriate timing.'


1485 "Yeah.'
  Reply "I didn't think there was anything sinister about it I just thought it was people who didn't really perhaps have an insight into you know what has gone on and what was good timing and what wasn't. I never really thought anything much more about either of them.'

I think it is wrong for anyone to say Yvonne's actions were inappropriate for I'm sure she had the training and the credentials to allow her to do what she was doing.  If she had previous dealing with Dave and was concerned as to his influence on the situation I can see why she may have thought it best to wave the flag.  OK in the end Dave has not been identified as a suspect, but the McCanns were, so really she should have been allowed to go further, for if Madeleine had truly been in danger from the parents how safe were the other two kids?  I think this was on Yvonne's mind.

[misty]

I think it is wrong for anyone to say Yvonne's actions were inappropriate for I'm sure she had the training and the credentials to allow her to do what she was doing.  If she had previous dealing with Dave and was concerned as to his influence on the situation I can see why she may have thought it best to wave the flag.  OK in the end Dave has not been identified as a suspect, but the McCanns were, so really she should have been allowed to go further, for if Madeleine had truly been in danger from the parents how safe were the other two kids?  I think this was on Yvonne's mind.

What do you think YM knew about the situation at 9am on 4th May 2007, given that all she'd seen was a news report on the TV?

[Robittybob1]

What do you think YM knew about the situation at 9am on 4th May 2007, given that all she'd seen was a news report on the TV?

She drove there and met the McCanns and spoke to them and spoke to someone we think is Dave.  She says once there she recognised one of them from previous dealings.  She was concerned by that knowledge and previous history.  She is on the spot not just getting news off the tele.

[Alice Purjorick]

In the case of Yvonne Martin, on what basis was she trying to impose,insinuate,intercede or inveigle ? [delete to suit your viewpoint]. She had no jurisdiction in Portugal.

[Robittybob1]

In the case of Yvonne Martin, on what basis was she trying to impose,insinuate,intercede or inveigle ? [delete to suit your viewpoint]. She had no jurisdiction in Portugal.

But her mandate if that is the right word may have required to take action in the case of British citizens in overseas countries  on a person to person basis , and nothing to do with jurisdiction.

[misty]

But her mandate if that is the right word may have required to take action in the case of British citizens in overseas countries  on a person to person basis , and nothing to do with jurisdiction.

As a child protection officer, she should have known that there was nothing she could do in an overseas case bar speaking with the FCO.

[Alice Purjorick]

But her mandate if that is the right word may have required to take action in the case of British citizens in overseas countries  on a person to person basis , and nothing to do with jurisdiction.

Were she a UK Social Worker she would have been employed by a County Council or equivalent municipal body. It's improbable her authority extended into the next county let alone another country.
UK officers have no authority abroad unless granted by the State they are in, this includes the police.
The incident smacks to me of "Nosey Neighbour Syndrome".
I wish to be associated with the remarks of Misty above re FCO.

[Mr Gray]

But her mandate if that is the right word may have required to take action in the case of British citizens in overseas countries  on a person to person basis , and nothing to do with jurisdiction.

her mandate would be to report any concern...not take action

[Brietta]

She drove there and met the McCanns and spoke to them and spoke to someone we think is Dave.  She says once there she recognised one of them from previous dealings.  She was concerned by that knowledge and previous history.  She is on the spot not just getting news off the tele.

That is not how it works Robitty.  She was not a lone ranger.  She behaved inappropriately without benefit of any germane information, authorisation or benefit of case conferences.

Do not forget ... Yvonne Martin was a complete stranger to Madeleine's parents ... if she was a bona fide child care worker haven't you stopped to wonder that the absolute last thing on her mind was the welfare of Madeleine's siblings.