The burn hole in Sheila's nightie and the graze across her abdomen.

[Holly Goodhead]

Afaik no one has put forward any explanation for the holes in SC's nightie and the black particles surrounding them said to have been caused by a hot object and/or the graze wound to SC's abdomen noted by the pathologist.  Is it possible the damage to the nightdress and graze wound were caused by the ricochet from an exited bullet?

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[david1819]

Afaik no one has put forward any explanation for the holes in SC's nightie and the black particles surrounding them said to have been caused by a hot object and/or the graze wound to SC's abdomen noted by the pathologist.  Is it possible the damage to the nightdress and graze wound were caused by the ricochet from an exited bullet?

The small burn holes on the dress could have been caused by a hot shell case ejecting or the ejection port. Then again they could have been cause by cigarettes.

[Holly Goodhead]

The small burn holes on the dress could have been caused by a hot shell case ejecting or the ejection port. Then again they could have been cause by cigarettes.

Would a hot shell casing and the ejection port cause a graze to the abdomen?  Do people who smoke routinely sustain burns to nightwear?  I have no idea I've never smoked.  I did once have a boyfriend who smoked and I don't recall any burns to clothes - I don't recall seeing him in nightwear    Would a cigarette burn cause a graze to the abdomen.  Of course the 2 might well be separate.

[david1819]

Would a hot shell casing and the ejection port cause a graze to the abdomen?  Do people who smoke routinely sustain burns to nightwear?  I have no idea I've never smoked.  I did once have a boyfriend who smoked and I don't recall any burns to clothes - I don't recall seeing him in nightwear    Would a cigarette burn cause a graze to the abdomen.  Of course the 2 might well be separate.

Its very unlikely that Sheila could have been wearing the nightdress when the abdomen graze happened. Because there is no corresponding damage to the dress.

What ever caused the craze cant have been hot because its a just a graze, no mention of burning.

[Holly Goodhead]

Its very unlikely that Sheila could have been wearing the nightdress when the abdomen graze happened. Because there is no corresponding damage to the dress.

What ever caused the craze cant have been hot because its a just a graze, no mention of burning.

Yes the damage to the nightdress is on the right and the graze wound on the left but the bullet may have skimmed across SC's person although this seems unlikely.

The only mention of the graze is in the autopsy.  I can't find any other official docs covering this eg trial testimony.  Dr Vanezis thought the marks to NB's backs were burns and Prof Knight disagreed.  So I guess we could have the reverse situation here.  I know you think the burn marks to SC's nightdress were probably caused by the casing ejection port.  According to FSS the silencer only heated up to 24.5C after 25 shots.  So how likely is it that the casing ejection port would cause SC's nightdress to burn?  Think how hot a clothes iron gets.  Do you remember DF on IA fired his .22 100 x's and said it only got warm to the touch.
 

     

[david1819]

Yes the damage to the nightdress is on the right and the graze wound on the left but the bullet may have skimmed across SC's person although this seems unlikely.

The only mention of the graze is in the autopsy.  I can't find any other official docs covering this eg trial testimony.  Dr Vanezis thought the marks to NB's backs were burns and Prof Knight disagreed.  So I guess we could have the reverse situation here.  I know you think the burn marks to SC's nightdress were probably caused by the casing ejection port.  According to FSS the silencer only heated up to 24.5C after 25 shots.  So how likely is it that the casing ejection port would cause SC's nightdress to burn?  Think how hot a clothes iron gets.  Do you remember DF on IA fired his .22 100 x's and said it only got warm to the touch.
 

   

The casings get extremely hot. They are the direct source of the combustions. People often get burned by them. Its what is known in America as "Brass Burn"

https://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-249229.html

[Holly Goodhead]

The casings get extremely hot. They are the direct source of the combustions. People often get burned by them. Its what is known in America as "Brass Burn"

https://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-249229.html

When you refer to "The casings" which casings are you referring to?  Have you got any evidence for the heat generated to .22 casings?

Myster suggested a hot casing might have been responsible for the marks on NB's neck/back. 

Is there any evidence casings from a .22 get "extremely hot" and that any heat radiates out to the casing ejection port?

What do you think caused the burn marks to SC's nightdress? 

[Myster]

When you refer to "The casings" which casings are you referring to?  Have you got any evidence for the heat generated to .22 casings?

Myster suggested a hot casing might have been responsible for the marks on NB's neck/back. 

Is there any evidence casings from a .22 get "extremely hot" and that any heat radiates out to the casing ejection port?

What do you think caused the burn marks to SC's nightdress?

Yup... here ya go, honey... errrm, I mean Holly... https://youtu.be/1Q116cKnsTQ?t=44s

(Well, doggone it!... not exactly .22s, but near enough).

[Holly Goodhead]

Yup... here ya go, honey... errrm, I mean Holly... https://youtu.be/1Q116cKnsTQ?t=44s

(Well, doggone it!... not exactly .22s, but near enough).

Thanks.  Yes I appreciate casings get hot but David seems to think this extends to the casing ejection port itself and that this caused the burn marks to SC's nightdress.

[Myster]

Thanks.  Yes I appreciate casings get hot but David seems to think this extends to the casing ejection port itself and that this caused the burn marks to SC's nightdress.

The port probably will get hot after firing many rounds over a short period. It is after all a combustion chamber from which hot gases are exhausted.  But more likely that the nightdress burn was from one of the last two red-hot casings which might have landed on it before being brushed off or rolling off onto the carpet. Could even be a burn from a lit cigarette, cigar or ash which she dropped before going to bed.

[Holly Goodhead]

The port probably will get hot after firing many rounds over a short period. It is after all a combustion chamber from which hot gases are exhausted.  But more likely that the nightdress burn was from one of the last two red-hot casings which might have landed on it before being brushed off or rolling off onto the carpet. Could even be a burn from a lit cigarette, cigar or ash which she dropped before going to bed.

I thought the ejection port was spring operated or the like.  Although the slow motion vid does seem to show something exhausted. 

The casings were found above SC's head so I'm not sure how they would come into contact with the mid/lower part of her nightdress. 

Yes could be a cigarette but what about the black particles surrounding the holes, surely a forensic scientist could include or exclude cigarette ash?

[Myster]

So it seems there were two exited bullets that ricocheted back towards the perp: DRH/5 and DRH/36.  As I said the muzzle velocity of the bullets used is 1040 ft/s.  I understand bullets are very hot when they leave the muzzle and can leave a powder tatoo:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1262834

I assume this is true with entry and graze wounds. 

All gsw's at WHF were inflicted at close range. 

Afaik no one has put forward any explanation for the holes in SC's nightie and the black particles surrounding them said to have been caused by a hot object and/or the graze wound to SC's abdomen noted by the pathologist. Is it possible the damage to the nightdress and graze wound were caused by the ricochet from an exited bullet?

Just had a closer look at M. Fletcher's Examination Record of the nightdress. Seems that the holes were tested for lead residue using Rhodizonate and none was found. So presumably they were not caused by a bullet...

https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/forensic-science/Pages/forensic-programs-crime-scene-rhodizonate.aspx

Next to hole * is smaller hole - made by hot

object - not full penetration - black particles around hole

Neg. Rhodizonate - not FD residues.  No spots of oil

visible on lower half of front part(?).  No evidence of rifle (18)

having been fired when breech end close to nightdress.

FD = Firearms Deposit maybe?

[Caroline]

Just had a closer look at M. Fletcher's Examination Record of the nightdress. Seems that the holes were tested for lead residue using Rhodizonate and none was found. So presumably they were not caused by a bullet...

https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/forensic-science/Pages/forensic-programs-crime-scene-rhodizonate.aspx

Next to hole * is smaller hole - made by hot

object - not full penetration - black particles around hole

Neg. Rhodizonate - not FD residues.  No spots of oil

visible on lower half of front part(?).  No evidence of rifle (18)

having been fired when breech end close to nightdress.

FD = Firearms Deposit maybe?

The holes were probably old, they could be simply from smoking  joint.

[Myster]

The holes were probably old, they could be simply from smoking  joint.

... or a Tom Thumb cigarillo at Christmas... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnC92aZRjC8

[Caroline]

... or a Tom Thumb cigarillo at Christmas... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnC92aZRjC8