Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?

[Robittybob1]

 I sometimes wonder if Pamela Fenn got her days mixed up after all the time had passed. I'm definitely unsure which night was the late night.
Which night could Madeleine cry for an hour and a quarter?  Which night did Matt stay out late?  Who did he stay drinking with?

[Robittybob1]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Mrs Pamela Fenn 20 August 2007

"She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse."

Did the McCanns stay out late on the Tuesday night?

[Robittybob1]

G-unit raised a similar issue before http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2705.msg250719#msg250719

[Robittybob1]

Lace also questioned this statement. "I would question Mrs. Fenn's recollection of what she heard and when she heard it.

The crying episode,   Mrs. Fenn said she heard a child crying on the Tuesday evening,  this child cried for three quarters of an hour, then the child cried 'Daddy'.

In my opinion,    what Mrs. Fenn heard was Amelie wake up crying,   she then woke Sean and Madeleine,   in my opinion Sean then cried,  and then Madeleine called 'Daddy'    she then went into Kate and Gerry's bedroom,  Gerry was just about to go into their bedroom.   

I think Mrs. Fenn got the timing wrong as this all happened later than she said it did.

In my opinion this night is also what Madeleine referred to when she said 'why didn't you come when Sean and me were crying'    she meant the Tuesday night in my opinion,   Sean and Madeleine were woken by Amelie crying. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6217.msg231788#msg231788

[John]

I sometimes wonder if Pamela Fenn got her days mixed up after all the time had passed. I'm definitely unsure which night was the late night.
Which night could Madeleine cry for an hour and a quarter?  Which night did Matt stay out late?  Who did he stay drinking with?

It was the Tuesday night, the next night she went bout to her friends house to get some peace and quiet.  The Thursday night she was at home and spoke over the balcony to one of the tapas crowd when she heard all the commotion going on.

I think you are confused Robbie, Mrs Fenn wasn't!

[Robittybob1]

It was the Tuesday night, the next night she went bout to her friends house to get some peace and quiet.  The Thursday night she was at home and spoke over the balcony to one of the tapas crowd when she heard all the commotion going on.

I think you are confused Robbie, Mrs Fenn wasn't!

Well I'll admit I'm confused on this topic, and your post makes it even more confusing, for I thought we had established yesterday that Mrs Fenn had not gone out the next night.

I agree she was there on the Thursday night.

Can you recall why you think she went out on the Wednesday night?

[Innominate]

I sometimes wonder if Pamela Fenn got her days mixed up after all the time had passed. I'm definitely unsure which night was the late night.
Which night could Madeleine cry for an hour and a quarter?  Which night did Matt stay out late?  Who did he stay drinking with?

Does this help?

Reply 'Yes, yeah, erm so yeah Wednesday was slightly different I suppose cos it rained and things were off, although by the afternoon it had cleared up, erm and so on Wednesday night I didnt go to dinner cos I'd thrown up the night before, you know it was just another weird thing about holiday cos I'm never ill, neither is Matt, as long as I've known him I've never known him be sick, erm'.
1578 'So you, on the Wednesday evening then, you stayed in the apartment with Grace''
 Reply 'Yeah, yeah. I remember reading my book on the sofa for a while and then think I, I went to bed but it would have been quite, you know it would have been about nine, cos I'd been up most of the night before, erm and I mean I know that on Thursday night when we sat down at the table, Kate said that to Madeleine and Sean had you know, said they'd been crying on the Wednesday night and asking where erm, they'd said they'd been crying and, and some, you know, this is sort of with hindsight but I you know, I was trying to think whether I'd heard anything but'.
1578 'On the Wednesday evening'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.
1578 'Who said they'd been crying sorry''
 Reply 'Kate did, when we sat down at the table on the Thursday night, Kate said that erm, Madeleine and Sean had cried, said they'd been crying, erm and you know wondered where she was, or wondered where you know, Mummy and Daddy were, erm I mean this was kind of after Madeleine disappeared, we talked, she mentioned that when we sat at the table on Thursday and then after Madeleine had disappeared, erm McCANNS said, oh well I wonder whether on the Wednesday, you know somebody had tried to get in perhaps or had got in and they'd seen something, erm you know and I was next door in the apartment but I mean I didnt hear any, well you know, I didnt hear anything, I could well have been asleep, erm you could hear quite a lot through the apartments because Grace, she always wakes up early but because she seemed to have diarrhoea every night, she'd wake up sort of six o'clock most mornings and we'd always have to put her in the, in the shower or in the bath first thing, and Gerry and Kate would always hear that and so you know, most of the comments first thing in the morning would be like, oh so Grace was up early again, she'd be invariably screaming her head off, so'.
1578 'On Wednesday evening'.
 Reply 'Mmm'.
1578 'When you were poorly, what time would Matthew have gone down to''
 Reply 'About half eight'.
1578 'About half eight''
 Reply 'Mmm'.
1578 'And do you recall what time he returned''
 Reply 'No but it was quite late that night, it was later than any of the other nights'.
1578 'Why was that''
 Reply 'Cos they'd gone to the bar after dinner and had a couple of drinks there, whereas you know, all the other nights we just got up from the table and went, went back to bed, so you know, it might have been about midnight or half midnight, as opposed to you know, probably about eleven I think when maybe they might have gone back to our rooms, back to the apartments'.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm

[Robittybob1]

OK so Matt stays out late on the Wednesday night but does that mean the McCanns stayed out late too?
Wasn't that the night Gerry went back before Kate, the night Kate slept in the kids room on her own?

[Robittybob1]

David Payne rogatory "00:10:35 1485 "What about the night before' The Wednesday night, did you take any pictures, were any pictures taken then' Or did you see any pictures being taken then''
 Reply "In the evening''
1485 "Yeah, because I understand that you stayed later on the Wednesday night.'
 Reply "We did, ....." 

So David stayed out later.  Wouldn't the McCanns stay too?

also " Err you know Wednesday night we stayed a bit later that night err you know we, we had a drink in the bar after which was the only night that we, you know we did that, but apart from that there's nothing else.'"

[Innominate]

OK so Matt stays out late on the Wednesday night but does that mean the McCanns stayed out late too.
Wasn't that the night Gerry went back before Kate, the night Kate slept in the kids room on her own?

KMcC:

Regarding this night she says that none of the children cried, she would have noticed as she was in the room. Regarding the fact that Madeleine on the next morning, Thursday, during breakfast said to both of them that she had been crying and that nobody had come to her room, she presumes that this crying must have been before she and Gerry returned to the apartment. When she asked Madeleine about this however, the child gave no importance to the matter. On this night they also checked on the children every half hour; however she thinks that 45 minutes had gone by from the time of the last check to when they arrived, as exceptionally they went to the Tapas bar. On this day she thinks that Gerry arrived at the apartment around 23:50 and she arrived 5 minutes afterwards. She went to sleep in Madeleine's room 15/20 minutes afterwards. Before this she spent a few minutes in her bed next to Gerry's.

====

So Wednesday appears to be the late night.

===

KMcC wrt Tuesday:

When asked about the fact her daughter had been crying on the night of the Tuesday for one hour and 15 minutes, between 10:30 and 11:45, she says it is not true. She says that on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, and sleep with her and Gerry in their room. She says that before Madeleine appeared in their room, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine went to the room almost at the same time she head the crying. She does not remember if afterwards she or Gerry went to the childrens' room, however she states that Amelie cried for a short time.

-------------

Pamela Fenn:

She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.

====

The time of arrival from the Fenn statement ties up with the time of arrival from KMcC statement and the RO rogatory, so this would appear to indicate Mrs Fenn got her date wrong.

Obviously, if this is the case then KMcC and GMcC must have been aware that the children were crying when they returned, which would case doubt on the claim that Madeleine told them she had been crying the next morning.

But, it is confusing and I'm not sure that interpretation is correct.

It is also complicated by the fact the Mrs Fenn's statement and timing may have been public knowledge by the time of KMcC statement.

[Robittybob1]

Good work once again Qwerty  thanks.  It was the bit I needed to find. 

The thing is on the Wednesday night Gerry comes back first so maybe Madeleine stopped crying as soon as she heard Gerry arriving so Gerry was none the wiser that Madeleine had been crying. Madeleine then fell asleep and by the time Kate went into the room (arrived after Gerry, spent sometime in Gerry's company and then went to the kids room) she would not be aware Madeleine had been crying either.

[jassi]

Weren't two of them bawling their heads off ?
Unlikely that both would stop simultaneously when  parent returned  IMO

[Robittybob1]

Weren't two of them bawling their heads off ?
Unlikely that both would stop simultaneously when  parent returned  IMO

That could have been earlier before the mystery couple came and comforted the kids.  A thought occurred what would happen if one of the friends doing a listening check on all the apartments went passed the McCann's apartment while the mystery couple were in there?  What would they do about that?

[jassi]

I have heard mention of them before, but where did the story of this mystery couple  come from ? 
Is there ant proof that they even existed?

[Robittybob1]

I have heard mention of them before, but where did the story of this mystery couple  come from ? 
Is there ant proof that they even existed?

We had a thread on it recently and it is hard to work out but the only person likely to have been aware of a mystery couple next door was Rachael Mampilly as she stayed in apartment 5B all night.