Author Topic: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?  (Read 36869 times)

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Offline Benice

Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
« Reply #90 on: June 21, 2017, 01:16:30 PM »
I am allowed to point out that the first statements made by the McCanns say that Madeline told them the twins had cried on Wednesday evening. That changed in Gerry's second statement to Madeleine and one twin.

What I am not allowed to do is accuse them of lying because I don't know why their story changed.

Why should posters be allowed to accuse Amaral of lying when they don't know why he says what he says? They can point out that his account differs from that of others, but they should stop short of accusations if we are to have a level playing field.

Amarals claims were not made in a statement - they were carefully chosen by him to be included in a book which was going to be sold to the general public.  It was his claim that his allegations were based on the information in the files- a claim which formed a major part of his defence IIRC.

I do not believe that he would not have rigorously vetted every word in that book- probably several times over - before he was completely satisfied that the contents were exactly how he wanted them to be  - and way before the book went to the publisher too.         Therefore IMO either he deliberately changed evidence contained in the files to suit himself - or if all his false claims were innocent mistakes, then that shows an alarming degree of ignorance of the  facts of this case - on the part of the one  person who should have known what he was talking about.

With regard to a level playing field.  Hardly a day passes without repeated criticism of the McCann's actions being posted on this forum ad nauseam.    IMO compared to the McCanns - Amaral has got away very lightly when it comes to criticism.

It seems to me that some people thoroughly approve of the PT law which apparently allows Amaral to accuse others of lying - but strongly object when the same law is applied to him.

AIMHO

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline kizzy

Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
« Reply #91 on: June 21, 2017, 01:36:35 PM »
Ameral was there, with first hand information.  [doesn't believe abduction]

Mccanns there who do know what happened , but nothing to back up abduction.  [apart from there say so]

Now in stark reality, one of them are right, it's just which one.

Or who you would rather believe.

Offline Benice

Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
« Reply #92 on: June 21, 2017, 01:47:29 PM »
Ameral was there, with first hand information.  [doesn't believe abduction]

Mccanns there who do know what happened , but nothing to back up abduction.  [apart from there say so]

Now in stark reality, one of them are right, it's just which one.

Or who you would rather believe.

Amaral never met or spoke to the McCanns.   Therefore everything came to him second-hand.   A fairly serious disadvantage IMO.
AIMHO
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline G-Unit

Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
« Reply #93 on: June 21, 2017, 01:48:08 PM »
Amarals claims were not made in a statement - they were carefully chosen by him to be included in a book which was going to be sold to the general public.  It was his claim that his allegations were based on the information in the files- a claim which formed a major part of his defence IIRC.

I do not believe that he would not have rigorously vetted every word in that book- probably several times over - before he was completely satisfied that the contents were exactly how he wanted them to be  - and way before the book went to the publisher too.         Therefore IMO either he deliberately changed evidence contained in the files to suit himself - or if all his false claims were innocent mistakes, then that shows an alarming degree of ignorance of the  facts of this case - on the part of the one  person who should have known what he was talking about.

With regard to a level playing field.  Hardly a day passes without repeated criticism of the McCann's actions being posted on this forum ad nauseam.    IMO compared to the McCanns - Amaral has got away very lightly when it comes to criticism.

It seems to me that some people thoroughly approve of the PT law which apparently allows Amaral to accuse others of lying - but strongly object when the same law is applied to him.

AIMHO

If posters can't prove he deliberately lied rather than being mistaken or stupid they should not be allowed to label him a liar. Similar issue, same rules.


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Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
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Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
« Reply #94 on: June 21, 2017, 01:55:33 PM »
Amarals claims were not made in a statement - they were carefully chosen by him to be included in a book which was going to be sold to the general public.  It was his claim that his allegations were based on the information in the files- a claim which formed a major part of his defence IIRC.

I do not believe that he would not have rigorously vetted every word in that book- probably several times over - before he was completely satisfied that the contents were exactly how he wanted them to be  - and way before the book went to the publisher too.         Therefore IMO either he deliberately changed evidence contained in the files to suit himself - or if all his false claims were innocent mistakes, then that shows an alarming degree of ignorance of the  facts of this case - on the part of the one  person who should have known what he was talking about.

With regard to a level playing field.  Hardly a day passes without repeated criticism of the McCann's actions being posted on this forum ad nauseam.    IMO compared to the McCanns - Amaral has got away very lightly when it comes to criticism.

It seems to me that some people thoroughly approve of the PT law which apparently allows Amaral to accuse others of lying - but strongly object when the same law is applied to him.

AIMHO
Lots of woulds, coulds, might have, and IYO.

AIMHO
What's up, old man?

Offline kizzy

Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
« Reply #95 on: June 21, 2017, 01:57:01 PM »
Amaral never met or spoke to the McCanns.   Therefore everything came to him second-hand.   A fairly serious disadvantage IMO.
AIMHO

So in your logic, every case solved has to be first hand information. [by each senior officer].

When you are in charge of a case. i would guess that is why you have a team

To relay first hand info , to you

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
« Reply #96 on: June 21, 2017, 02:18:40 PM »
Lots of woulds, coulds, might have, and IYO.

AIMHO

Be nice is being very careful not to post lion as fact and that is why she has included these caveats
Some posters simply post and believe  their opinion  is fact

Offline Benice

Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
« Reply #97 on: June 21, 2017, 05:21:52 PM »
So in your logic, every case solved has to be first hand information. [by each senior officer].

When you are in charge of a case. i would guess that is why you have a team

To relay first hand info , to you

Actually it was you who mentioned 'first hand information'.   I presumed you did so because you thought it would be an advantage to any policeman when it came to investigating a case.

I merely pointed out that in this case Amaral did not have the advantage of first hand information - and had to rely on secondhand info from others.

His choice - but a choice I will never understand.

AIMHO
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Brietta

Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
« Reply #98 on: June 21, 2017, 05:31:21 PM »
So in your logic, every case solved has to be first hand information. [by each senior officer].

When you are in charge of a case. i would guess that is why you have a team

To relay first hand info , to you

There is a thread in the member's section asking what Amaral and co got right.  Eight posts have been made since  September 03, 2015.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Eleanor

Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
« Reply #99 on: June 21, 2017, 05:39:01 PM »
There is a thread in the member's section asking what Amaral and co got right.  Eight posts have been made since  September 03, 2015.

Was there anything?

Offline Benice

Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
« Reply #100 on: June 21, 2017, 06:00:03 PM »
If posters can't prove he deliberately lied rather than being mistaken or stupid they should not be allowed to label him a liar. Similar issue, same rules.

Proving that someone deliberately lied - without their admission is virtually impossible.

However, if common sense, logic and reasoned thought (even when backed up with cites) are no longer allowed to be utilised when forming and giving an opinion on whether someone has lied or not   - then how can we claim to be a debating forum.  I don't think we can.

This is my personal opinion.  No-one is obliged to agree with it.

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline G-Unit

Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
« Reply #101 on: June 21, 2017, 06:20:37 PM »
Proving that someone deliberately lied - without their admission is virtually impossible.

However, if common sense, logic and reasoned thought (even when backed up with cites) are no longer allowed to be utilised when forming and giving an opinion on whether someone has lied or not   - then how can we claim to be a debating forum.  I don't think we can.

This is my personal opinion.  No-one is obliged to agree with it.

If people can say 'Amaral lied imo' then why not 'Kate lied imo'?
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
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Offline slartibartfast

Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
« Reply #102 on: June 21, 2017, 07:10:15 PM »
Proving that someone deliberately lied - without their admission is virtually impossible.

However, if common sense, logic and reasoned thought (even when backed up with cites) are no longer allowed to be utilised when forming and giving an opinion on whether someone has lied or not   - then how can we claim to be a debating forum.  I don't think we can.

This is my personal opinion.  No-one is obliged to agree with it.

You can say someone got something wrong in your opinion based on x, y and z without fear of censure. Lying implies a deliberate act to deceive and is difficult to prove, hence libellous.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Brietta

Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
« Reply #103 on: June 21, 2017, 07:27:10 PM »
If people can say 'Amaral lied imo' then why not 'Kate lied imo'?

Amaral was handed a criminal conviction from a Portuguese court for perjury ... it is therefore a proven fact that his falsifying of documents to cover for alleged torturers is not a matter of opinion.

Perjury:: the offence of wilfully telling an untruth or making a misrepresentation under oath.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
« Reply #104 on: June 21, 2017, 07:29:26 PM »
Amaral was handed a criminal conviction from a Portuguese court for perjury ... it is therefore a proven fact that his falsifying of documents to cover for alleged torturers is not a matter of opinion.

Perjury:: the offence of wilfully telling an untruth or making a misrepresentation under oath.
It would be unsafe to say because he lied in one case he lied in another.
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