Was the naming of the arguidos an unnecessary and dumb move?

[Brietta]

I asked who made the decision, not who carried it out. Obviously the PJ put the status in place but why? Was it because the PJ decided it was the right thing to do or did the questions requested by OG made it unavoidable? It could have been because the men requested it.

It seems your question was rhetorical since you have covered a few of the bases yourself.  My guess would be that Ines Sequeira in her role as prosecutor might have had some say-so.  She did set the ball rolling on her appointment by approving an international letter of request.

[ShiningInLuz]

Heri once posted on here that a source had told him one of the arguidos had spilled some beans & incriminated another of the arguidos. We didn't hear any more but I wonder where his source got that info from? Possibly the same place Blacksmith got the full list of people SY wanted to question back in 2014?

I am not quite sure what is going on re either point.

Paulo Ribeiro stated in his Panorama interview that the police turned up on his doorstep, saying he had been named as matching a drawing or e-fit. I can only remember a single prior photo of him, and it is not good enough to permit me to make an accurate assessment of whether he matches any sketch or e-fit.  I would guess this was as a result of publicity around Crimewatch 2013, but there is no direct connection path that I am aware of.

I don't read Blacksmith, so unless you are kind enough to provide a copy of that list, I am at a disadvantage.

I have seen a list of the people allegedly interviewed by OG in Dec 2014, though I cannot verify its provenance.  I thought it was reasonably accurate.  However, Panorama asserted that Vitor dos Santos was questioned by OG, and Vitor dos Santos confirmed he was indeed interviewed by police around the end of 2014.  That was news to me because Vitor dos Santos was not on the list of interviewees that I have seen.

It appears Panorama has access to a better list than I have.

[ShiningInLuz]

This is a Portuguese investigation. 
Scotland Yard are constrained by the rules imposed by the Portuguese Justice system.
Which dictates that those Portuguese Nationals questioned by the Portuguese police asking set rogatory questions on behalf of Scotland Yard, with the Brits looking on as observers, were made arguidos by the Portuguese in accordance with Portuguese law.
Scotland Yard were refused permission to go anywhere else with investigating these arguidos ... again in accordance with Portuguese Law and as usual where JITs are not the procedure, it is a long drawn out time wasting procedure.

The point I am making is that Scotland Yard are constrained when allowed to work in a foreign country by the laws and procedures of that country.

Therefore the "dumb" epithet you insist on, actually has nothing to do with Scotland Yard beyond the procedures they must follow in investigating a case on foreign soil.
In my opinion, you are failing to appreciate that your criticism is entirely of the Portuguese lawful imposition of protection for the rights of Portuguese citizens ... which you appear to think "dumb".

No, I am not.

There is nothing to prevent OG doing exactly what the PJ did with Kate - namely starting her as a witness, then changing her to an arguida.

The list of people questioned in Dec 2014 contains a number who were allegedly to be questioned as witnesses, but to be changed to arguidos if the need arose.

If you have anything solid that OG were denied this approach, kindly provide it.  Otherwise you are making an unfounded claim.

If the media is to be believed, OG wanted DNA from the arguidos at all costs.  I don't put a great deal of store in that report.  However, if accurate, it was a dumb request.  Portugal's DNA laws just don't work like the UK's, and that should have been factored in by OG.

Notice, I have no need of an 'IMO' in my reply.

[ShiningInLuz]

Of course it was.  No one else has the right, other than those being questioned.

I think that was the point G-Unit was making. We have a paucity of evidence about whether it was imposed or requested.

Purely from memory, the media was running with the arguidos bit prior to the interviews.  So if the men requested it, it was because of some advance knowledge they had when they were 'requested' to turn up at Faro for questioning.

The only pertinent clue I can see is Sergey Malinka. He was originally questioned as a witness in 2007.  Then as an arguido in 2014.  That is an odd change of heart if the status was requested rather than imposed by the PJ.

[ShiningInLuz]

When being asked did you murder Madeleine all protection necessary should have and looks to have been afforded the Arguidos.

https://joana-morais.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/arguidos-answered-to-250-questions-and.html

Going away from topic though.

If they were genuinely asked that, did OG really expect them to crack and admit it?

The date on this is interesting.  It is 3 July 2014.  It talks of 11 witnesses being questioned.  That would not happen until Dec 2014.

Either JM did some post-editing, or the media had a lot of leaked info on their hands.  Hmmmmm.

[misty]

I am not quite sure what is going on re either point.

Paulo Ribeiro stated in his Panorama interview that the police turned up on his doorstep, saying he had been named as matching a drawing or e-fit. I can only remember a single prior photo of him, and it is not good enough to permit me to make an accurate assessment of whether he matches any sketch or e-fit.  I would guess this was as a result of publicity around Crimewatch 2013, but there is no direct connection path that I am aware of.

I don't read Blacksmith, so unless you are kind enough to provide a copy of that list, I am at a disadvantage.

I have seen a list of the people allegedly interviewed by OG in Dec 2014, though I cannot verify its provenance.  I thought it was reasonably accurate.  However, Panorama asserted that Vitor dos Santos was questioned by OG, and Vitor dos Santos confirmed he was indeed interviewed by police around the end of 2014.  That was news to me because Vitor dos Santos was not on the list of interviewees that I have seen.

It appears Panorama has access to a better list than I have.

In your post #1468, you said it was dumb for the PJ to make the "3 burglars" arguidos. During the original investigation. the PJ didn't analyse the phone data in enough detail to discover that there was an important triangulation of calls during the crucial period around Madeleine's disappearance.
Heri went on to report a possible development to us. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2784.msg173384#msg173384 . That may have rendered the statement it was dumb to question the 4 men equally dumb. I do not know who Heri's source was but Blacksmith's source was certainly spot on with the names of the additional people SY wanted to question. I don't think the link to the blog is available now but the info is available on the forum which is currently self-imploding under a thread entitled Blacksmith.

[jassi]

In your post #1468, you said it was dumb for the PJ to make the "3 burglars" arguidos. During the original investigation. the PJ didn't analyse the phone data in enough detail to discover that there was an important triangulation of calls during the crucial period around Madeleine's disappearance.
Heri went on to report a possible development to us. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2784.msg173384#msg173384 . That may have rendered the statement it was dumb to question the 4 men equally dumb. I do not know who Heri's source was but Blacksmith's source was certainly spot on with the names of the additional people SY wanted to question. I don't think the link to the blog is available now but the info is available on the forum which is currently self-imploding under a thread entitled Blacksmith.

Clearly not important enough to actually lead anywhere, it would appear.

[barrier]

I do not know who Heri's source was but Blacksmith's source was certainly spot on with the names of the additional people SY wanted to question. I don't think the link to the blog is available now but the info is available on the forum which is currently self-imploding under a thread entitled Blacksmith.

You have to be a member to see it I believe.

[ShiningInLuz]

In your post #1468, you said it was dumb for the PJ to make the "3 burglars" arguidos. During the original investigation. the PJ didn't analyse the phone data in enough detail to discover that there was an important triangulation of calls during the crucial period around Madeleine's disappearance.
Heri went on to report a possible development to us. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2784.msg173384#msg173384 . That may have rendered the statement it was dumb to question the 4 men equally dumb. I do not know who Heri's source was but Blacksmith's source was certainly spot on with the names of the additional people SY wanted to question. I don't think the link to the blog is available now but the info is available on the forum which is currently self-imploding under a thread entitled Blacksmith.

My memory may be at fault, but I remember in the Panorama interview with Pedro do Carmo that the PJ considered 3 men in Luz making calls/texts to each other not to be sufficient cause for further investigation.

The phone system did not permit 'triangulation'.  Roughly speaking, all 3 mobile operators split Luz into west v east, and that is as detailed as it gets.

Paulo Ribeiro apparently lived in 'west' Luz, and in Panorama said he was home that night.  If his phone traffic that night turned up outside 'west' Luz, it would be suspicious.  Roughly speaking, the only other place it would be detected was 'east' Luz, which is a large area with many establishments, but critically it also contains apartment 5A.

If you wish to PM me with some pointer to Blacksmith, or whichever forum is imploding, I will be happy to spend some time looking at the list of 11 again.

With regards to Heri, I have met him in the flesh. I found him to be extremely affable. He had a decent amount of local knowledge, as he had visited Luz more than once.  His understanding of the 3 burglars angle was obviously far superior to mine.  He has been far more active with OG and the media than I have.  I rate his expertise in the case highly.  I simply disagree with his theory.

I also discussed with Heri 'my' theory.  He was one of those who urged me to contact OG with it, which I did.  I am fairly sure he did not abandon 'his' theory in favour of 'my' theory. He is probably the reason that 'my' theory featured prominently on Panorama's 10th anniversary special.  I cannot see why Panorama would have been interested in me otherwise.

[misty]

You have to be a member to see it I believe.

I'm not a member & I can read it.

[misty]

My memory may be at fault, but I remember in the Panorama interview with Pedro do Carmo that the PJ considered 3 men in Luz making calls/texts to each other not to be sufficient cause for further investigation.

The phone system did not permit 'triangulation'.  Roughly speaking, all 3 mobile operators split Luz into west v east, and that is as detailed as it gets.

Paulo Ribeiro apparently lived in 'west' Luz, and in Panorama said he was home that night.  If his phone traffic that night turned up outside 'west' Luz, it would be suspicious.  Roughly speaking, the only other place it would be detected was 'east' Luz, which is a large area with many establishments, but critically it also contains apartment 5A.

If you wish to PM me with some pointer to Blacksmith, or whichever forum is imploding, I will be happy to spend some time looking at the list of 11 again.

With regards to Heri, I have met him in the flesh. I found him to be extremely affable. He had a decent amount of local knowledge, as he had visited Luz more than once.  His understanding of the 3 burglars angle was obviously far superior to mine.  He has been far more active with OG and the media than I have.  I rate his expertise in the case highly.  I simply disagree with his theory.

I also discussed with Heri 'my' theory.  He was one of those who urged me to contact OG with it, which I did.  I am fairly sure he did not abandon 'his' theory in favour of 'my' theory. He is probably the reason that 'my' theory featured prominently on Panorama's 10th anniversary special.  I cannot see why Panorama would have been interested in me otherwise.

From reading Heri's blog & his comments on here, it seems he had uncovered information which the PJ had missed so there was a little more than just a few phone calls being of interest. Clearly Panorama were interested enough to include it in their documentary. However, if the 3 burglars were still a part of the current lines of investigation the  BBC would not have been permitted to air the details or approach the former suspects. Likewise, VS.
Maybe you're just looking in the wrong direction.

[ShiningInLuz]

From reading Heri's blog & his comments on here, it seems he had uncovered information which the PJ had missed so there was a little more than just a few phone calls being of interest. Clearly Panorama were interested enough to include it in their documentary. However, if the 3 burglars were still a part of the current lines of investigation the  BBC would not have been permitted to air the details or approach the former suspects. Likewise, VS.
Maybe you're just looking in the wrong direction.

I am not looking in any particular direction.

I am not making any claim about what OG is working on.  Other than the remit excludes the McCanns.

[barrier]

I'm not a member & I can read it.

If I type Blacksmith in it leads me to a sign in page.

[misty]

If I type Blacksmith in it leads me to a sign in page.

Google is a girl's best friend. Try J....H...... + Blacksmith + arguidos & it should be the first link.

[barrier]

Google is a girl's best friend. Try J....H...... + Blacksmith + arguidos & it should be the first link.

Many thanks.