Conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room!

[Robittybob1]

Ok - so obviously k mccann new straight away that maddie had been abducted.

Not only, did two highly intelligent people leave their children alone.

They also let 20 odd people, trample round the apartment.

Even your average burgled victim, knows not to let anyone touch anything, till police arrive.

Conclusion, because of this, who would know, if anyone had been in the room or not.

Why did they let all those people in.

From my understanding Kate thought Madeleine had been abducted but her friends told her that can't have happened, so she accepted  that to begin with, but in the mean time people were coming and going in the apartment.  Had her friends backed her to begin with I think the crime scene would have been preserved.

They behaved like any normal panic-stricken parents would behave.    I doubt if they were thinking in terms of a 'crime scene' in those first 5/10 minutes of frantic searching.    And in any case it wasn't a crime scene until searches in 5a and around the vicinity had failed to find Madeleine.

Why you choose to criticise the parents for not behaving like policemen from the second they found Madeleine gone, whilst ignoring the fact that the policemen who should have been behaving like policemen - failed miserably to do their job properly - is inexplicable to me.

AIMHO

IMO The GNR fell into a similar trap, they looked at the scene and it didn't appear to be a break in so they too thought it will just be a matter of time till she is found wandering somewhere.

[kizzy]

From my understanding Kate thought Madeleine had been abducted but her friends told her that can't have happened, so she accepted  that to begin with, but in the mean time people were coming and going in the apartment.  Had her friends backed her to begin with I think the crime scene would have been preserved.
IMO The GNR fell into a similar trap, they looked at the scene and it didn't appear to be a break in so they too thought it will just be a matter of time till she is found wandering somewhere.

From your understanding. no offence, but seems like an excuse.

Well from my understanding, k mccann knew straight away maddie had been abducted.

Searched the place, and don't forget open window.

IMO as well, my understanding is no one tells the mccanns what to do.

[kizzy]

They behaved like any normal panic-stricken parents would behave.    I doubt if they were thinking in terms of a 'crime scene' in those first 5/10 minutes of frantic searching.    And in any case it wasn't a crime scene until searches in 5a and around the vicinity had failed to find Madeleine.

Why you choose to criticise the parents for not behaving like policemen from the second they found Madeleine gone, whilst ignoring the fact that the policemen who should have been behaving like policemen - failed miserably to do their job properly when they arrived - is inexplicable to me.

AIMHO

I choose to criticize parents, because i do not believe maddie was abducted, is that explicable.

It wasn't the second maddie had gone was it.

K mcann herself searched the apartment, in her words knew straight away maddie had been abducted

[Carana]

So what of the open window ? I think it's accepted now that the alleged abductor didn't enter through it and if it was an escape route surely he would have opened it as soon as he entered the room likewise if it was to hand the child out to someone else at the window as time was of the essence and he couldn't do it with a child in his arms. If Tannerman was in the apartment  when Gerry entered Gerry would have seen the open window.

I'm not sure whether someone lifted the blinds or not to get in. They don't appear to have been forced and that type of mechanism jams quite easily. On the other hand, if alleged perp was able to lift it a bit, and if the window wasn't locked and if he/she was able to grab the rope thing and pull at the right angle, I guess it wouldn't be impossible - just a lot of "ifs".

If, however, that was the case, I doubt that Gerry wouldn't have noticed, which is why I dismissed the idea in the perp-already-there scenario.

I also thought of the verandah door as a possible entry point, but then I can't imagine someone closing it again to the same approximate gap level. If the door hadn't been in roughly the same position, again I'd have thought that Gerry would have noticed.

So I guess the door seems the most likely. If that's the case, then the kitchen or the parents' bedroom would seem to fairly logical options (IMO).

However, I'm not entirely convinced that anyone was actually lurking inside during Gerry's check.

[Benice]

I choose to criticize parents, because i do not believe maddie was abducted, is that explicable.

It wasn't the second maddie had gone was it.

K mcann herself searched the apartment, in her words knew straight away maddie had been abducted

So you criticise the McCanns for not treating the apartment like a crime scene, but have no criticism at all of the policemen whose job it was to cordon off the crime scene, and by failing to do that - added to the possible destruction/contamination of evidence.    Fair enough - that's your prerogative.

IMO Even if  Kate knew in her heart that Madeleine had been abducted that doesn't mean she wasn't hoping against hope that she was wrong.   Once again a perfectly normal reaction by any parent in that horrific situation IMO.

[sadie]

If this diagram is drawn correctly it would be easy to go from the kids bedroom across to the parents room without being seen from the patio.

I agree, risky but just about possible, with the patio door opening at its western side.

I have always wondered if the Abductor could have come in via the parents bedroom patio door tho, cos that was hidden behind a bush from where the Tapas group were sitting.  I tried to awaken interest in it a couple of years ago, but IIRC, not a soul responded.  Good to see that you, Rob, could see the possibilities.

No forensics were done on the parents patio windows.  I wonder why?  Maybe it was locked or maybe the photo which Carana just showed was as it was at the time.  However, the parents left in the daylight.  Would they have closed the shutters in the daylight?

As John pointed out about that time on forum, most of the steps up were not illuminated by the street lamp opposite, anyone ascending was in shadow part of the way  .... so a pretty well concealed way in.  Although there would have been some illumination from the distant street lamp by the little car parking area opposite the Tapas Reception.


I still think the front door is the obvious and easiest way in and out.  Hidden away in a recess that is not passed by anyone .... and dark.  With the wall to the pathway, it would be easy to "bob down" to hide oneself completely had anyone come across block 5 parking area along the usual track.

[kizzy]

So you criticise the McCanns for not treating the apartment like a crime scene, but have no criticism at all of the policemen whose job it was to cordon off the crime scene, and by failing to do that - added to the possible destruction/contamination of evidence.    Fair enough - that's your prerogative.

IMO Even if  Kate knew in her heart that Madeleine had been abducted that doesn't mean she wasn't hoping against hope that she was wrong.   Once again a perfectly normal reaction by any parent in that horrific situation IMO.

Kmccann knew, maddie had been abducted,why let all those people in, when she had already searched.

 Why didn't they search the surrounding area, why were they all allowed to go in there.

When imo it was obvious,  maddie wasn't in there, only other sleeping children.

[Carana]

Kmccann knew, maddie had been abducted,why let all those people in, when she had already searched.

 Why didn't they search the surrounding area, why were they all allowed to go in there.

When imo it was obvious,  maddie wasn't in there, only other sleeping children.

Possibly because others couldn't believe that she'd disappeared and thought Kate might have missed somewhere?
Kids can hide in the strangest places sometimes...

[Brietta]

Kmccann knew, maddie had been abducted,why let all those people in, when she had already searched.

 Why didn't they search the surrounding area, why were they all allowed to go in there.

When imo it was obvious,  maddie wasn't in there, only other sleeping children.

This is off topic ... the subject of the thread is the discussion of whether or not the intruder was in the flat during Gerry's check.

Please stick to that.

[kizzy]

This is off topic ... the subject of the thread is the discussion of whether or not the intruder was in the flat during Gerry's check.

Please stick to that.

This was my point, how would they know if an intruder had been in or not?

[barrier]

This is off topic ... the subject of the thread is the discussion of whether or not the intruder was in the flat during Gerry's check.

Please stick to that.

You can only discuss if an intruder was in the flat during GM's visit if its known for certain there was one(intruder),yet to see any one confirm this.

[kizzy]

This is off topic ... the subject of the thread is the discussion of whether or not the intruder was in the flat during Gerry's check.

Please stick to that.

IMO It is only a topic, not a fact that an intruder existed.

[jassi]

IMO It is only a topic, not a fact that an intruder existed.

An intruder is most certainly not a fact except in the minds of some.

[Brietta]

IMO It is only a topic, not a fact that an intruder existed.

  ... and isn't it refreshing to be a member of a forum which welcomes such diversification to be discussed on the appropriate thread ... or not as the fancy takes one.

To facilitate that ... all future off topic or inappropriate comment will be deleted.

[Miss Taken Identity]

Rachael Rogatory "yeah I mean we basically came to the conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room when Gerry had gone in to check'"

Is that a sensible conclusion  - what does the forum think?

Yeah they PROBABLY came to that conclusion because the story didn't fit a time line they created.

NOW..here is the thing. How did this intruder get in, not via the window with whooshing curtains  AND not the same way Gerry  came in cos he used a key?