The Smithman e-fits

[Carana]

So is the existence of God a fact because so many people believe it.. Is evolution a fact because so many believe it

You and G-Unt appear to be agreeing for once. LOL

And I agree with you both on that point.

[G-Unit]

You and G-Unt appear to be agreeing for once. LOL

And I agree with you both on that point.

I think that's twice Davel and I have agreed on this thread. It's surely a record. 

[Robittybob1]

We could say Martin Smith has a tendency to recognise people by the way they move, as I do by the sound of their voice, but you can't draw the sound of their voice or the way they move but you can draw the person you thought it was from memory.
I could imagine a situation of a completely dark room and you hear the sound of a voice and you obviously recognise it, it was someone you know and then it all goes blank, they've knocked you out, but later the police want to create an E-fit of the person they want to speak to.  Could you not produce an e-fit of the person you knew but you absolutely never saw on the night?

[Mr Gray]

We could say Martin Smith has a tendency to recognise people by the way they move, as I do by the sound of their voice, but you can't drawn the sound of their voice or the way they move but you can draw the person you thought it was from memory.
I could imagine a situation of a completely dark room and you hear the sound of a voice and you obviously recognise it, it was someone you know and then it all goes blank, they've knocked you out, but later the police want to create an E-fit of the person they want to speak to.  Could you not produce an e-fit of the person you knew but you absolutely never saw on the night?

You wouldn't produce an e fit you would give the persons name ...

[Robittybob1]

No Rob. The fact is that many people share the same opinion, not that the opinion is a fact.

I very nearly agreed with you, but tell me are you saying that the concept of "similarity" can never be a fact, it is always going to be just an opinion?
In geometry "similar" has a definition "Two triangles are congruent if they have the same three sides and exactly the same three angles. ... Thus, two triangles with the same sides will be congruent. (Note: If two triangles have three equal angles, they need not be congruent. All that we know is these triangles are similar.)"

You are right with triangle they can vary in size but still be similar  but not for people size is one of the defining characters, they are not going to be considered similar if their heights are different, but then e-fits are based on faces.   Do we have a height associated with the e-fit?

[Mr Gray]

I very nearly agreed with you, but tell me are you saying that the concept of "similarity" can never be a fact, it is always going to be just an opinion?
In geometry "similar" has a definition "Two triangles are congruent if they have the same three sides and exactly the same three angles. ... Thus, two triangles with the same sides will be congruent. (Note: If two triangles have three equal angles, they need not be congruent. All that we know is these triangles are similar.)"

If you takd a, word out of context you may change it's meaning

[Robittybob1]

You wouldn't produce an e fit you would give the persons name ...

You might have forgotten the name.  It is an example they could publish an e-fit and a name in some cases.  They do here . "If you see this person don't approach him as he could be dangerous, ring the police."

[Mr Gray]

You might have forgotten the name.  It is an example they could publish an e-fit and a name in some cases.  They do here . "If you see this person don't approach him as he could be dangerous, ring the police."

But Smith hadn't seen this man before... But he, saw Gerry after and that could be argued is where the face came from

[Robittybob1]

But Smith hadn't seen this man before... But he, saw Gerry after and that could be argued is where the face came from

Is that what he said,he had "never seen him before"?  We don't know the conversation that preceded the making of these Smithman e-fits.  They were done away from the PJ who took the statements. Can we be sure the statements and the e-fits are connected?

Martin Smith is rather contradictory on that point:
"— States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.
— Adds that in May and August of 2006, he saw ROBERT MURAT in Praia da Luz bars. On one of these occasions, the first, he was inebriated and spoke to everyone. He did not wear glasses at that time. He also states that the individual who carried the child was not ROBERT. He would have recognised him immediately."

[Mr Gray]

Is that what he said,he had "never seen him before"?  We don't know the conversation that preceded the making of these Smithman e-fits.  They were done away from the PJ who took the statements. Can we be sure the statements and the e-fits are connected?

Are you suggesting MS had seen this man before... He didn't mention this in his statement... And there's, nothing to suggest he had

[Robittybob1]

That is a classic example of when an opinion and a fact are the same thing.  It is a fact the many people would have the same opinion, so it becomes a fact that there is a similarity even though it starts off as an opinion.

The classic example related to the McCann is the issue over whether Angus  Symington is similar to Robert Murat.
Now I saw a statement from Robert Murat expressing how similar they both looked yet others on the forum say they are not similar.

[G-Unit]

But Smith hadn't seen this man before... But he, saw Gerry after and that could be argued is where the face came from

Has anyone ever wondered why Oakley International appear to have had access to what appears to have been facial composite software?

Not only that, but a trained operator would have been needed to work with the witnesses.

The company which makes the software and provides the training in the UK is here;
http://www.visionmetric.com/testimonials/

Their customers appear to be law enforcement bodies, including the Metropolitan Police. I can find no price for purchasing the system, but I wouldn't think it was cheap.
 

[Robittybob1]

Are you suggesting MS had seen this man before... He didn't mention this in his statement... And there's, nothing to suggest he had

Because he doesn't deny it, it makes it possible to suggest it, without the need to call him a liar.  He doesn't explain why it is "not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph."

[Robittybob1]

Are you suggesting MS had seen this man before... He didn't mention this in his statement... And there's, nothing to suggest he had

The biggest mystery is why it took them 2 weeks before they reported it.  I would suggest that could happen if there was some connection.

[Brietta]

Has anyone ever wondered why Oakley International appear to have had access to what appears to have been facial composite software?

Not only that, but a trained operator would have been needed to work with the witnesses.

The company which makes the software and provides the training in the UK is here;
http://www.visionmetric.com/testimonials/

Their customers appear to be law enforcement bodies, including the Metropolitan Police. I can find no price for purchasing the system, but I wouldn't think it was cheap.

In my opinion it appears to be very cost effective in terms of a training package for personnel which is inclusive of accommodation and some meals. 
The software is probably the most expensive component ... but depending on interest many home computers can also boast an impressively expensive collection of programmes some intuitive.


Facial Composite Training Course
26th February – 2nd March 2018
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About the course: This 1 week course covers all aspects relating to the effective production and use
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❖ Cognitive and holistic interview methods and maximising witness retrieval
❖ Witness-operator mock crime scenarios
❖ National guidelines. achieving best evidence and generating exhibits
❖ Procedural and legal responsibilities
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The training course will be conducted in accordance with the current guidelines from the ACPO facial
ID group and National Occupational Standards.
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efit@visionmetric.com . Confirmation of registration will be given.
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Sunday 25th February -Thursday March 1st 2018)
❖ Lunch and refreshments at the Canterbury Innovation Centre, University of Kent.
o Evening meals are NOT included in the cost.
o Accommodation for extra nights can be arranged on request

file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/Facial%20Composite%20Training%20Course%20February%202018.pdf