Author Topic: Which officers moved SC and why?  (Read 505 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Which officers moved SC and why?
« on: February 19, 2018, 01:16:44 PM »
There can be no doubt SC was moved by EP.  A/PS Woodcock confirms in his WS that SC's head was raised against NB's bedside cabinet and bizarrely some 17 years after the event forensic scientist Martyn Ismail, instructed by the prosecution, also said SC's head was propped against the bedside cabinet based on soc images.  MI said SC was pulled by the feet. 

Of course it is a serious matter when a police officer disturbs the soc but were the intentions good or sinister? 

Positive reasons could include:

- Check for life
- Make rifle safe
- Recover Crispy under bed
- Modesty - SC was found without underwear


Sinister reasons could include:

- Wanting to access bedside cabinet or under mattress to look for valuables/cash.  AE claims JB queried with EP the missing contents of NB's wallet: cards and several hundred pounds.

- If anything dodgy was going on with the opium poppies and an officer was working with a crime gang and WHF an officer may have been looking for anything incriminating: names, addresses, drugs, handgun.  This sounds a bit far-fetched but just putting it out there! 

- Interfere with SC's body sexually

Offline Caroline

Re: Which officers moved SC and why?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2018, 11:54:01 PM »
There can be no doubt SC was moved by EP. A/PS Woodcock confirms in his WS that SC's head was raised against NB's bedside cabinet and bizarrely some 17 years after the event forensic scientist Martyn Ismail, instructed by the prosecution, also said SC's head was propped against the bedside cabinet based on soc images.  MI said SC was pulled by the feet. 

Of course it is a serious matter when a police officer disturbs the soc but were the intentions good or sinister? 

Positive reasons could include:

- Check for life
- Make rifle safe
- Recover Crispy under bed
- Modesty - SC was found without underwear


Sinister reasons could include:

- Wanting to access bedside cabinet or under mattress to look for valuables/cash.  AE claims JB queried with EP the missing contents of NB's wallet: cards and several hundred pounds.

- If anything dodgy was going on with the opium poppies and an officer was working with a crime gang and WHF an officer may have been looking for anything incriminating: names, addresses, drugs, handgun.  This sounds a bit far-fetched but just putting it out there! 

- Interfere with SC's body sexually

Yes there can.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Which officers moved SC and why?
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2018, 08:52:32 AM »
Yes there can.

Yes you're right Dr Craig may have moved SC.

Maybe I should have said after SC sustained the 2nd gsw her head fell backwards against NB's bedside cabinet as observed and documented by A/PS Woodcock who was 1 of 3 officers to first enter the main bedroom and observe SC at approx 7.30am.  The other 2 officers being PC's Collins and Delgado.  SC's found position aligns with pathological evidence from Dr Vanezis and Prof Knight based on bloodstains. Forensic scientist Martyn Ismail also said SC's head would have fallen straight back against NB's bedside cabinet. When DC Bird photographed SC circa 10.30am her position had changed with her head flat on the floor and to the left of the bedside cabinet.  Who moved SC and why?  One things for sure it wasn't JB.

DI Cook admitted lifting SC's arm to enable DC Bird to photograph bloodstains underneath her wrist and before and after photos exist to this effect. 

I think it was officer Montgomery who made safe the rifle. 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 08:55:56 AM by Holly Goodhead »

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Which officers moved SC and why?
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2018, 06:16:10 PM »
There can be no doubt SC was moved by EP.  A/PS Woodcock confirms in his WS that SC's head was raised against NB's bedside cabinet and bizarrely some 17 years after the event forensic scientist Martyn Ismail, instructed by the prosecution, also said SC's head was propped against the bedside cabinet based on soc images.  MI said SC was pulled by the feet. 

Of course it is a serious matter when a police officer disturbs the soc but were the intentions good or sinister? 

Positive reasons could include:

- Check for life
- Make rifle safe
- Recover Crispy under bed
- Modesty - SC was found without underwear


Sinister reasons could include:

- Wanting to access bedside cabinet or under mattress to look for valuables/cash.  AE claims JB queried with EP the missing contents of NB's wallet: cards and several hundred pounds.

- If anything dodgy was going on with the opium poppies and an officer was working with a crime gang and WHF an officer may have been looking for anything incriminating: names, addresses, drugs, handgun.  This sounds a bit far-fetched but just putting it out there! 

- Interfere with SC's body sexually

Crispy was recovered from inside the cupboard not under the bed. So that's one positive reason ruled out.

Offline Caroline

Re: Which officers moved SC and why?
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2018, 07:26:00 PM »
Crispy was recovered from inside the cupboard not under the bed. So that's one positive reason ruled out.

Delgado initially found Crispy under the bed, he was later put in the wardrobe to stop him running amok around the SC


david1819

  • Guest
Re: Which officers moved SC and why?
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2018, 10:11:34 PM »
Delgado initially found Crispy under the bed, he was later put in the wardrobe to stop him running amok around the SC

By who?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Which officers moved SC and why?
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2018, 11:47:55 PM »
By who?

It will come to me tomorrow when I'm sober! 

I'm not even a dog lover but who would put a traumatised pooch in a wardrobe on the basis he might wreck soc when he had free run for some 4 hours  8(8-))

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Which officers moved SC and why?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2018, 02:49:05 PM »
I thought I recalled reading about the person who put Crispy in the wardrobe but I'm struggling to find it.  I had it in my mind it was DI Cook but it seems he removed Crispy from the wardrobe and handed him to officers outside.  I'll look again later.  Does anyone else know the answer?   

According to DI Cook's trial testimony it was A/PS Woodcock who made safe the rifle in the presence of officer Montgomery.  It seems this was after DC Bird took photos. 

I'm wondering if Dr Craig moved SC.  If he did it might also explain the cushions etc found around NB ie he placed them there to prevent getting blood on his soles when he certified death.  I'm assuming that to certify death he would need some sort of contact with the body eg check for pulse or lift eyelid.  By this I mean if he moved SC doubt he would think twice about placing the cushions around the blood near NB's body.

Obviously we don't have access to all WS's.  It might be that whoever moved SC fessed up in a WS.  Hence the prosecution didn't make anything of this at trial.  I don't even think the prosecution made anything of the bible at trial.  Hardly surprising I guess when it seems clear the prosecution went out of its way to withhold any bloodstain test results. 

Claims of JB 'staging' SC and the bible seem to have evolved out of the 2002 appeal.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Which officers moved SC and why?
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2018, 05:15:02 PM »
Crispy was recovered from inside the cupboard not under the bed. So that's one positive reason ruled out.

I think this was probably what I was thinking about when I thought I recalled DI Cook putting Crispy in the wardrobe.  So I'm not sure I've seen anything about who placed him in the wardrobe.  It perhaps shows how old the case is as today such treatment of an animal would be unacceptable with RSPCA getting involved.  Most know dogs get frightened by loud bangs eg fireworks so 25/26 gunshots inside WHF and all the commotion must have traumatised little Crispy.  To then stuff him inside a wardrobe is IMO horrible.   

A/PS Woodcock and PC's Collins and Delgado all say he was under the bed when they entered. 

As an aside David maybe now you appreciate Crispy was running around you might rethink any noises emanating from SC?  Also the following might account for you thinking you can see different colour complexions in June/SC's skin tones.

Ever wondered why women seem to get a lot more from browsing interior-decorating catalogues than men do? Well, it turns out that women are generally significantly better at discriminating between subtle differences in colour hues, according to 2012 research led by Israel Abramov, a professor of vision at the City University of New York.

His tests on men and women with normal colour vision and 20/20 sight found that men were especially poor at discriminating between colours at the shorter-wavelength end of our visual spectrum that is, between different shades of violets and blues.

Men are also far more likely to have some form of colour blindness. The disorder usually has a genetic component and is rarely found in women.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5411059/Research-reveals-women-colder-hands.html

Amazing what you can learn from the DM.  And it's an easy read too.  Not sure why there's a need for any other written material apart from of course JB case related docs.   8)-)))

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Which officers moved SC and why?
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2018, 07:39:06 PM »
I think this was probably what I was thinking about when I thought I recalled DI Cook putting Crispy in the wardrobe.  So I'm not sure I've seen anything about who placed him in the wardrobe.  It perhaps shows how old the case is as today such treatment of an animal would be unacceptable with RSPCA getting involved.  Most know dogs get frightened by loud bangs eg fireworks so 25/26 gunshots inside WHF and all the commotion must have traumatised little Crispy.  To then stuff him inside a wardrobe is IMO horrible.   

A/PS Woodcock and PC's Collins and Delgado all say he was under the bed when they entered. 


It seems like an absurd thing to do.

As an aside David maybe now you appreciate Crispy was running around you might rethink any noises emanating from SC? 

There's not much noise a small dog can make on a carpet floor under a bed.

Also the following might account for you thinking you can see different colour complexions in June/SC's skin tones.

Ever wondered why women seem to get a lot more from browsing interior-decorating catalogues than men do? Well, it turns out that women are generally significantly better at discriminating between subtle differences in colour hues, according to 2012 research led by Israel Abramov, a professor of vision at the City University of New York.

His tests on men and women with normal colour vision and 20/20 sight found that men were especially poor at discriminating between colours at the shorter-wavelength end of our visual spectrum that is, between different shades of violets and blues.

Men are also far more likely to have some form of colour blindness. The disorder usually has a genetic component and is rarely found in women.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5411059/Research-reveals-women-colder-hands.html

Amazing what you can learn from the DM.  And it's an easy read too.  Not sure why there's a need for any other written material apart from of course JB case related docs.   8)-)))


What accounts for me being able to see the different color complexions in June/SC's skin tones and you not seeing them. Is probably your alcohol consuption and my lack of. According to what you posted you should be able to notice the different color complexions better than me! Yet you dont notice them at all. You are doing a Dr Craig!

 (&^&

« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 07:42:41 PM by David1819 »

Offline Caroline

Re: Which officers moved SC and why?
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2018, 10:08:06 PM »
By who?

Can't remember off hand - it is written  somewhere though.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Which officers moved SC and why?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2018, 09:18:31 AM »
It seems like an absurd thing to do.

Think his barking was probably grating when officers were trying to in effect work but even so it could be argued the person responsible had a propensity for cruelty to animals and had a sadistic streak when many other options existed eg place in a room not involved such as upstairs bathroom or take outside and put in out building.  The reason given to preserve the soc is nonsensical when he had free run for some 4 hours.  I think we should try to figure out who was responsible and work out his psyche like a bunch of psychologists did with Hitler! 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CkfuBn5vmNs

There's not much noise a small dog can make on a carpet floor under a bed.

When A/PS Woodcock, PC's Collins and Delgado entered the main bedroom he was found under the bed but prior to this he may have been scampering around all over the place.  Officers are on high alert and extremely vigilant so the slightest movement or sound would be picked up on.  Potentially their lives and the lives of others were dependent on them being prepared to react in an instance: "Sheilas gone crazy she's got the gun".  Ever thought of joining the TA now known as Army Reserve?

https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/the-army-reserve/#

What accounts for me being able to see the different color complexions in June/SC's skin tones and you not seeing them. Is probably your alcohol consuption and my lack of. According to what you posted you should be able to notice the different color complexions better than me! Yet you dont notice them at all. You are doing a Dr Craig!

 (&^&

Or could be your caffeine fixes are causing your pupils to dialate and causing enhanced accommodation:

https://www.nature.com/articles/eye2016288

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accommodation_reflex

Anyway, Call Me Dave, hopefully you will uncover another 'forensic evidence breakthrough' that you will share with me again over a beer/coffee.  I've recently discovered a new beer in Waitrose: Ninkasi by Wild Beer.  It transpires Wild Beer has a pub in Wapping Wharf.

We all have our poisons in one form or another!   &^&*%

Online APRIL

Re: Which officers moved SC and why?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2018, 01:09:14 PM »
Think his barking was probably grating when officers were trying to in effect work but even so it could be argued the person responsible had a propensity for cruelty to animals and had a sadistic streak when many other options existed eg place in a room not involved such as upstairs bathroom or take outside and put in out building.  The reason given to preserve the soc is nonsensical when he had free run for some 4 hours.  I think we should try to figure out who was responsible and work out his psyche like a bunch of psychologists did with Hitler! 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CkfuBn5vmNs

When A/PS Woodcock, PC's Collins and Delgado entered the main bedroom he was found under the bed but prior to this he may have been scampering around all over the place.  Officers are on high alert and extremely vigilant so the slightest movement or sound would be picked up on.  Potentially their lives and the lives of others were dependent on them being prepared to react in an instance: "Sheilas gone crazy she's got the gun".  Ever thought of joining the TA now known as Army Reserve?

https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/the-army-reserve/#

Or could be your caffeine fixes are causing your pupils to dialate and causing enhanced accommodation:

https://www.nature.com/articles/eye2016288

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accommodation_reflex

Anyway, Call Me Dave, hopefully you will uncover another 'forensic evidence breakthrough' that you will share with me again over a beer/coffee.  I've recently discovered a new beer in Waitrose: Ninkasi by Wild Beer.  It transpires Wild Beer has a pub in Wapping Wharf.

We all have our poisons in one form or another!   &^&*%


Why do you want to be called Dave? *%87

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Which officers moved SC and why?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2018, 02:32:49 PM »

Why do you want to be called Dave? *%87

I don't.  It's my nickname for David on the basis of David Cameron's unauthorised biography entitled 'Call Me Dave'.  I think he was known to introduce himself this way.  I've put the commas in the wrong places so it doesn't read well.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 02:37:34 PM by Holly Goodhead »

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Which officers moved SC and why?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2018, 03:13:12 PM »
Can't remember off hand - it is written  somewhere though.

From CAL P. 708:

From under the bed came a whimper, tentatively, Collins moved aside the eiderdown and saw June's little brown and White dog quivering with terror.  To protect the crime scene, the traumatised animal was deposited inside the main wardrobe.  P708 electronic version)

Can we infer PC Collins was responsible?  Can't find anything in PC Collin's WS to this effect.