Author Topic: Is this the reason Dr Craig only observed one gunshot wound to SC's neck?  (Read 1013 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

It's not conclusive that she was moved Holly, she may have been, she may not have been. But if she died with her head leaning against the BST, it doesn't mean the police moved her and one man'd recollections several months later isn't proof.

BTW, he doesn't specify 'worktops' he said 'units'.

I know one thing, Mike T's request for an exhumation won't be happening anytime soon (or ever) - Sheila was cremated.

Well if SC died with her head against the BST as noted by A/PS Woodcock and she was photographed with her head to the side of and flat to the floor who do you think moved her?  Afaik the only people inside WHF during this time were police officers and Dr Craig.  Given Dr Craig only saw 1 gsw perhaps because SC's found position was hiding the 2nd it seems more likely than not police officers moved her?  Chief Sup Harris who viewed SC with Dr Craig also notes in his WS 1 gsw only.

I'm not sure what you mean by one man's recollections several months later?  IF you mean A/PS Woodcock his WS is dated 20th Sep 1985. 

HMD's report also supports SC being moved post gsw's.

I'm sure blood stain analyst could work out exactly what happened here.   

There's a soc image of a bloodstain to the worktop.  I don't recall any images or ref to bloodstains on units ie cupboard doors?  I've no idea why soc officers didn't swab the stain on the worktop and have it analysed?  CAL refers to some bloodstaining on tiles around Aga.  These were described as smears.  I have it in my mind it was transfer from NB's hand if he tried to steady himself but that's just a guess on my part.

I think MikeT is referring to one of the children being exhumed.
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Sir David Attenborough added: "They always mean beautiful things like hummingbirds. I always reply by saying that I think of a little child in east Africa with a worm burrowing through his eyeball. The worm cannot live in any other way, except by burrowing through eyeballs. I find that hard to reconcile with the notion of a divine and benevolent creator."

Offline Caroline

Well if SC died with her head against the BST as noted by A/PS Woodcock and she was photographed with her head to the side of and flat to the floor who do you think moved her?  Afaik the only people inside WHF during this time were police officers and Dr Craig.  Given Dr Craig only saw 1 gsw perhaps because SC's found position was hiding the 2nd it seems more likely than not police officers moved her?  Chief Sup Harris who viewed SC with Dr Craig also notes in his WS 1 gsw only.

I'm not sure what you mean by one man's recollections several months later?  IF you mean A/PS Woodcock his WS is dated 20th Sep 1985. 

HMD's report also supports SC being moved post gsw's.

I'm sure blood stain analyst could work out exactly what happened here.   

There's a soc image of a bloodstain to the worktop.  I don't recall any images or ref to bloodstains on units ie cupboard doors?  I've no idea why soc officers didn't swab the stain on the worktop and have it analysed?  CAL refers to some bloodstaining on tiles around Aga.  These were described as smears.  I have it in my mind it was transfer from NB's hand if he tried to steady himself but that's just a guess on my part.

I think MikeT is referring to one of the children being exhumed.

I don't think she did die with her head against the BST - blood doesn't run up and she has a blood trial leading to her eye which came from her nose. The blood had travelled up, if she had died with her head propped up, the blood would have ran down, not up.

As you know the incident was treated as four murders and a suicide so blood spattered units wouldn't have been investigated. Woodcock does state that the 'units' and not the worktops had traces of blood.

I should have said Woodcock's statement was written several weeks after the murders.

Yes, I see that Mike is talking about Nicholas. The bullet wasn't recovered because it had fragmented.

Offline Holly Goodhead

I don't think she did die with her head against the BST - blood doesn't run up and she has a blood trial leading to her eye which came from her nose. The blood had travelled up, if she had died with her head propped up, the blood would have ran down, not up.

David said the same thing.  But forensic scientist Martyn Ismail said otherwise:

From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet

I'm not a forensic scientist, pathologist or BSA but based on MI's testimony above I guess one explanation might be that blood pooled in the back of SC's mouth/throat and was released upon movement.  Part of the biological function post death seems to be that 'purge fluid' emits through the mouth, nostrils and ears but this seems to take effect around the 24 hour mark. 

As you know the incident was treated as four murders and a suicide so blood spattered units wouldn't have been investigated. Woodcock does state that the 'units' and not the worktops had traces of blood.

I was only aware of bloodstains on the kitchen worktop near the phone.  BSA wasn't used in investigation so even if the units were bloodstained there's no evidence how it came to be there.  NB's upstairs injuries generated a lot of blood loss.  Yes it was first considered murder/suicide but the bodies were bagged for suspicious deaths and many bloodstained exhibits were collected and tested.  Eg why cut out bloodstained wallpaper from the hallway for testing but not remove the blood from the worktop and units if present?
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Sir David Attenborough added: "They always mean beautiful things like hummingbirds. I always reply by saying that I think of a little child in east Africa with a worm burrowing through his eyeball. The worm cannot live in any other way, except by burrowing through eyeballs. I find that hard to reconcile with the notion of a divine and benevolent creator."

Offline Caroline

David said the same thing.  But forensic scientist Martyn Ismail said otherwise:

From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet

I'm not a forensic scientist, pathologist or BSA but based on MI's testimony above I guess one explanation might be that blood pooled in the back of SC's mouth/throat and was released upon movement.  Part of the biological function post death seems to be that 'purge fluid' emits through the mouth, nostrils and ears but this seems to take effect around the 24 hour mark. 

I was only aware of bloodstains on the kitchen worktop near the phone.  BSA wasn't used in investigation so even if the units were bloodstained there's no evidence how it came to be there.  NB's upstairs injuries generated a lot of blood loss.  Yes it was first considered murder/suicide but the bodies were bagged for suspicious deaths and many bloodstained exhibits were collected and tested.  Eg why cut out bloodstained wallpaper from the hallway for testing but not remove the blood from the worktop and units if present?

So it isn't purge fluid then but - there is is and it bring into question MI's opinion (however expert).

Offline Caroline

Just watching the new drama 'Innocent' - I would say there is more than a little influenced by the Bamber case. Holly will enjoy it, they're having a real go at FSS! And there are some dodgy rellies involved too! The rellies kitchen looks life WHF (bit tidier), there's a caravan park and it's set beside the sea!  &%%6
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 12:36:13 AM by Caroline »

Offline Holly Goodhead

Just watching the new drama 'Innocent' - I would say there is more than a little influenced by the Bamber case. Holly will enjoy it, they're having a real go at FSS! And there are some dodgy rellies involved too! The rellies kitchen looks life WHF (bit tidier), there's a caravan park and it's set beside the sea!  &%%6

Does it feature opium poppies in the garden? 
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Sir David Attenborough added: "They always mean beautiful things like hummingbirds. I always reply by saying that I think of a little child in east Africa with a worm burrowing through his eyeball. The worm cannot live in any other way, except by burrowing through eyeballs. I find that hard to reconcile with the notion of a divine and benevolent creator."

Offline Holly Goodhead

So it isn't purge fluid then but - there is is and it bring into question MI's opinion (however expert).

No it doesn't appear to be 'purge fluid' which emits about the 24 hour mark but I guess SC's head may have been propped against BST in such a way blood flowed as per image or blood pooled in her mouth and was released upon movement and when she was lying flat.  I trust the expert opinion of a bio chemist over lay opinion. 

The evidence SC was moved:

- A/PS Woodcock WS - SC's head was slightly raised against BST which contradicts soc image
- David at one time was fond of posting up a handwritten note from PS Adams? claiming SC's position, rifle and bible in soc image appeared different to his (and other members of TFG?) initial recollections.
- Prof Herb MacDonnel - SC was moved
- Dr Martyn Ismail - SC was moved



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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CbogTy__YE&t=2s

Sir David Attenborough added: "They always mean beautiful things like hummingbirds. I always reply by saying that I think of a little child in east Africa with a worm burrowing through his eyeball. The worm cannot live in any other way, except by burrowing through eyeballs. I find that hard to reconcile with the notion of a divine and benevolent creator."