Author Topic: Is this the reason Dr Craig only observed one gunshot wound to SC's neck?  (Read 951 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Perhaps more than anyone David1819 has made much of the fact police surgeon Dr Craig only observed 1 gsw.  David put this down to the fact Dr Craig carried a hip flask containing whisky and wrote Dr Craig off as an incompetent drunk.  Not a view I've ever shared.  Anyway most have pointed out that Dr Craig only observed 1 gsw per victim. 

Through posting with puglove it came to my attention that A/PS Woodcock who was one of the first, if not the first, to observe SC notes in his WS that SC's head was slightly raised against NB's bedside cabinet.  I'm looking at a good quality soc image and note the upper gsw contains the smear many of us have previously discussed.  I have always thought this smear appears to have a top and bottom ie a mirror with a sort of crease in the middle which I was unable to reconcile with the soc image of SC's head flat to the floor.  However on the assumption A/PS Woodcock's WS is correct could this explain the smear and the fact Dr Craig only identified 1 gsw?  If SC's head was slightly raised against NB's bedside cabinet with her chin somewhat in her neck this might explain the smear and the fact Dr Craig only observed 1 gsw?



England beat Japan 3-0 to win SheBelieves Cup

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/47464374

Offline Caroline

Perhaps more than anyone David1819 has made much of the fact police surgeon Dr Craig only observed 1 gsw.  David put this down to the fact Dr Craig carried a hip flask containing whisky and wrote Dr Craig off as an incompetent drunk.  Not a view I've ever shared.  Anyway most have pointed out that Dr Craig only observed 1 gsw per victim. 

Through posting with puglove it came to my attention that A/PS Woodcock who was one of the first, if not the first, to observe SC notes in his WS that SC's head was slightly raised against NB's bedside cabinet.  I'm looking at a good quality soc image and note the upper gsw contains the smear many of us have previously discussed.  I have always thought this smear appears to have a top and bottom ie a mirror with a sort of crease in the middle which I was unable to reconcile with the soc image of SC's head flat to the floor.  However on the assumption A/PS Woodcock's WS is correct could this explain the smear and the fact Dr Craig only identified 1 gsw?  If SC's head was slightly raised against NB's bedside cabinet with her chin somewhat in her neck this might explain the smear and the fact Dr Craig only observed 1 gsw?

Seems more plausible than the doctor being drunk!

Offline Holly Goodhead

Seems more plausible than the doctor being drunk!

Yes and David was convinced the smear around the upper wound was caused by the threaded end of the rifle swiping across the skin!  Whereas it could simply be where SC's chin was pushed into her neck by the beside cabinet in effect creating the mirror type image previously discussed. 

Anyway if I put my JB guilty hat on I guess it could be said if the second wound was initially hidden due to SC's position Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris may have been more inclined to go with murder/suicide. 
England beat Japan 3-0 to win SheBelieves Cup

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/47464374

Offline Caroline

Yes and David was convinced the smear around the upper wound was caused by the threaded end of the rifle swiping across the skin!  Whereas it could simply be where SC's chin was pushed into her neck by the beside cabinet in effect creating the mirror type image previously discussed. 

Anyway if I put my JB guilty hat on I guess it could be said if the second wound was initially hidden due to SC's position Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris may have been more inclined to go with murder/suicide.

I think it's perfectly clear that there is a mirror image.

Offline Holly Goodhead

I think it's perfectly clear that there is a mirror image.

Yes along with other evidence describing SC's head against the bedside cabinet it looks that way.  Although I will admit I do struggle a bit with making sense of the bloodstains.   

David disagrees.  Here's his take on IA which I will respond to shortly.  No doubt David has already factored it into his work of fiction.  Still I guess it's good to see a millennial take an interest  8)-)))   

Myster if you're reading this any thoughts? 

http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=193962#p193962
England beat Japan 3-0 to win SheBelieves Cup

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/47464374

Offline Holly Goodhead

I've reread various WS's and it seems those who first observed SC and were also first to depart soc didn't observe the 2 gsw's eg PC's Collins and Delgado, Chief Sup Harris, Dr Craig and DCI Jones. 

PC Collins and Delgado also report seeing only 1 cartridge case.  DRH/1 was found to the left of SC's head between the bible and slipper.  DRH/2 was found to the right of SC's head and according to DC Hammersley was not immediately obvious.  The fact it was not immediately obvious might be explained by the fact SC's found position was concealing it and it was only revealed once she was moved.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7216.0;attach=6645

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=199

If SC's head was slightly raised against NB's bedside cabinet as per A/PS Woodcock and forensic scientist Martyn Ismail the casing may have ended up under her head, shoulder or upper back area.

England beat Japan 3-0 to win SheBelieves Cup

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/47464374

Offline Myster

Yes along with other evidence describing SC's head against the bedside cabinet it looks that way.  Although I will admit I do struggle a bit with making sense of the bloodstains.   

David disagrees.  Here's his take on IA which I will respond to shortly.  No doubt David has already factored it into his work of fiction.  Still I guess it's good to see a millennial take an interest  8)-)))   

Myster if you're reading this any thoughts?

http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=193962#p193962

Going over this yet again doesn't change my opinion that it isn't a mirror image. If it was a mirror image folded along what appears to be a crease mark, the image on both sides of that mark would be more or less identical (as in a Rorschach ink blot test... a horrible word to get your tongue around!)... but they're NOT identical!  Furthermore, the area around the wound would be far messier from blood oozing out of the wound and not as regular as it appears to be.  IMO it seems that someone, whether the killer, policeman, or medical examiner has drawn a thumb or finger (or the end of the rifle plus or minus moderator in the case of the killer) across the wound once or maybe twice from left to right to leave those two blobs indicated by the turquoise arrows. There are also faint lines in the smears from left  to right indicating the direction of travel of whatever caused them.
.
So I agree with a millenial... for once.    millenial LOL!... had to look that one up.

Hoots, shoots or whatever!
To see a World in a Grain of Sand and a Heaven in a Cosy Bed with a Hot Water Bottle.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Going over this yet again doesn't change my opinion that it isn't a mirror image. If it was a mirror image folded along what appears to be a crease mark, the image on both sides of that mark would be more or less identical (as in a Rorschach ink blot test... a horrible word to get your tongue around!)... but they're NOT identical!  Furthermore, the area around the wound would be far messier from blood oozing out of the wound and not as regular as it appears to be.  IMO it seems that someone, whether the killer, policeman, or medical examiner has drawn a thumb or finger (or the end of the rifle plus or minus moderator in the case of the killer) across the wound once or maybe twice from left to right to leave those two blobs indicated by the turquoise arrows. There are also faint lines in the smears from left  to right indicating the direction of travel of whatever caused them.
.
So I agree with a millenial... for once.    millenial LOL!... had to look that one up.

Hoots, shoots or whatever!

Hi Myster  8**8:/:

Well I only asked again in light of new info ie the fact it now seems clear the police moved SC from her found position. If her head was slightly raised against NB's bedside cabinet it might mean her chin was resting in her neck.  I thought you raised the possibility of a mirror image in the past but it may have been John.  Maybe mirror image is the wrong term but the smearing around the upper wound might have been caused by the folds of flesh connecting.   

There's hardly any blood around the lower non-fatal gsw but by comparison an abundance around the upper fatal gsw.  Since the upper wound was immediately fatal that rules SC out.  All the expert evidence is that SC sustained the gsw's and died circa 3.30am so by the time the police etc observed her any blood would surely have dried?  Leaving only the killer or the rifle/moderator swiping across the skin upon discharge.  However Prof Knight at trial said gsw's don't immediately leak blood.  Apparently blood vessels contract for a few seconds until blood leaks.  Meaning by the time blood started leaking the rifle was probably away from the wound. So we're left with the killer!  I don't see the rifle/moderator sweeping across the skin upon discharge making the mark.  I'm looking at a good quality soc image and the marks (dried bloodstain) around the upper wound resemble dried blood stains around the armpit area. 

Think a pathologist and blood pattern analyst would have to advise.  Looking at the soc image it seems to me there's a lot of swelling in that area either internal from bruising or a build up of blood so I guess once SC's head came to rest against the cabinet it may have caused the mark.  Prof Knight did say the heart can continue functioning after the brain ceases to function.  Also bearing in mind involuntary movement post death does occur.

The Rorschach ink blot test is a psychological test as opposed to biochemistry?  It's the reason I'm loathed to commit to saying what I can see in these images unlike some ie David who claims to see SC's palm print and muzzle impressions from the rifle sans silencer.   
England beat Japan 3-0 to win SheBelieves Cup

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/47464374

Offline Caroline

Hi Myster  8**8:/:

Well I only asked again in light of new info ie the fact it now seems clear the police moved SC from her found position. If her head was slightly raised against NB's bedside cabinet it might mean her chin was resting in her neck.  I thought you raised the possibility of a mirror image in the past but it may have been John.  Maybe mirror image is the wrong term but the smearing around the upper wound might have been caused by the folds of flesh connecting.   

There's hardly any blood around the lower non-fatal gsw but by comparison an abundance around the upper fatal gsw.  Since the upper wound was immediately fatal that rules SC out.  All the expert evidence is that SC sustained the gsw's and died circa 3.30am so by the time the police etc observed her any blood would surely have dried?  Leaving only the killer or the rifle/moderator swiping across the skin upon discharge.  However Prof Knight at trial said gsw's don't immediately leak blood.  Apparently blood vessels contract for a few seconds until blood leaks.  Meaning by the time blood started leaking the rifle was probably away from the wound. So we're left with the killer!  I don't see the rifle/moderator sweeping across the skin upon discharge making the mark.  I'm looking at a good quality soc image and the marks (dried bloodstain) around the upper wound resemble dried blood stains around the armpit area. 

Think a pathologist and blood pattern analyst would have to advise.  Looking at the soc image it seems to me there's a lot of swelling in that area either internal from bruising or a build up of blood so I guess once SC's head came to rest against the cabinet it may have caused the mark.  Prof Knight did say the heart can continue functioning after the brain ceases to function.  Also bearing in mind involuntary movement post death does occur.

The Rorschach ink blot test is a psychological test as opposed to biochemistry?  It's the reason I'm loathed to commit to saying what I can see in these images unlike some ie David who claims to see SC's palm print and muzzle impressions from the rifle sans silencer.

But it's not a fact that the police moved her body.

Offline Holly Goodhead

But it's not a fact that the police moved her body.

Well according to A/PS Woodcock's WS when he observed SC at approx 7.30 am her head was slightly raised against NB's bedside cabinet.  Soc image of SC taken at approx 10.30 am shows SC's head flat to the floor to the left of NB's bedside cabinet.  Roll on some 17 years and forensic scientist for the prosecution Martyn Ismail seemed to agree with A/PS Woodcock's observations noted in his WS.  It seems someone moved SC and it wasn't JB.  If SC's head was against NB's bedside cabinet with her chin in her neck it might account for the fact Dr Craig only observed 1 gsw.  Other officers first at scene also only noted 1 gsw eg Chief Sup Harris.   
England beat Japan 3-0 to win SheBelieves Cup

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/47464374

Offline Caroline

Well according to A/PS Woodcock's WS when he observed SC at approx 7.30 am her head was slightly raised against NB's bedside cabinet.  Soc image of SC taken at approx 10.30 am shows SC's head flat to the floor to the left of NB's bedside cabinet.  Roll on some 17 years and forensic scientist for the prosecution Martyn Ismail seemed to agree with A/PS Woodcock's observations noted in his WS.  It seems someone moved SC and it wasn't JB.  If SC's head was against NB's bedside cabinet with her chin in her neck it might account for the fact Dr Craig only observed 1 gsw.  Other officers first at scene also only noted 1 gsw eg Chief Sup Harris.

Yes, so you keep saying but no one else reported this.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Yes, so you keep saying but no one else reported this.

One of the first respondents observations corroborates with forensic scientist what more is required?  Even appeal court judges were impressed with it although obviously at the time they didn't have the benefit of A/PS Woodcock's WS.
 
England beat Japan 3-0 to win SheBelieves Cup

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/47464374

Offline Caroline

Perhaps more than anyone David1819 has made much of the fact police surgeon Dr Craig only observed 1 gsw.  David put this down to the fact Dr Craig carried a hip flask containing whisky and wrote Dr Craig off as an incompetent drunk.  Not a view I've ever shared.  Anyway most have pointed out that Dr Craig only observed 1 gsw per victim. 

Through posting with puglove it came to my attention that A/PS Woodcock who was one of the first, if not the first, to observe SC notes in his WS that SC's head was slightly raised against NB's bedside cabinet.  I'm looking at a good quality soc image and note the upper gsw contains the smear many of us have previously discussed.  I have always thought this smear appears to have a top and bottom ie a mirror with a sort of crease in the middle which I was unable to reconcile with the soc image of SC's head flat to the floor.  However on the assumption A/PS Woodcock's WS is correct could this explain the smear and the fact Dr Craig only identified 1 gsw?  If SC's head was slightly raised against NB's bedside cabinet with her chin somewhat in her neck this might explain the smear and the fact Dr Craig only observed 1 gsw?

Collins was the first to discover Sheila and didn't mention her head being raised. However, as you indicate, Woodcock does mention her head being raised BUT, he also mentions seeing two GS wounds. The thing about Woodcock is that he mentions things that no one else does - such as the table being 'overturned'. Interestig though, he does mention that there was blood on the floor and kitchen units which clearly means that blood was being transfered to objects - but not (as it seems) - to Sheila.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Collins was the first to discover Sheila and didn't mention her head being raised. However, as you indicate, Woodcock does mention her head being raised BUT, he also mentions seeing two GS wounds. The thing about Woodcock is that he mentions things that no one else does - such as the table being 'overturned'. Interestig though, he does mention that there was blood on the floor and kitchen units which clearly means that blood was being transfered to objects - but not (as it seems) - to Sheila.

He doesn't say her head was flat to the floor either.  And he only mentions 1 casing maybe because the 2nd was concealed by the position SC was found in.

I've previously posted maybe the reason A/PS Woodcock mentions 2 gsw's and other members of the raid team don't eg PC's Collins and Delgado is that A/PS Woodcock was at the soc after others had already departed and was subsequently aware of the 2 gsw's after SC had been moved.  According to his WS he made the rifle safe at approx 11.10am.   

A/PS Woodcock was clearly someone big on detail hence his WS is double the length of the others. 

I've answered the blood on the kitchen floor and worktops in the post on the other thread.

England beat Japan 3-0 to win SheBelieves Cup

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/47464374

Offline Caroline

He doesn't say her head was flat to the floor either.  And he only mentions 1 casing maybe because the 2nd was concealed by the position SC was found in.

I've previously posted maybe the reason A/PS Woodcock mentions 2 gsw's and other members of the raid team don't eg PC's Collins and Delgado is that A/PS Woodcock was at the soc after others had already departed and was subsequently aware of the 2 gsw's after SC had been moved.  According to his WS he made the rifle safe at approx 11.10am.   

A/PS Woodcock was clearly someone big on detail hence his WS is double the length of the others. 

I've answered the blood on the kitchen floor and worktops in the post on the other thread.

It's not conclusive that she was moved Holly, she may have been, she may not have been. But if she died with her head leaning against the BST, it doesn't mean the police moved her and one man'd recollections several months later isn't proof.

BTW, he doesn't specify 'worktops' he said 'units'.

I know one thing, Mike T's request for an exhumation won't be happening anytime soon (or ever) - Sheila was cremated.