Author Topic: What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?  (Read 77678 times)

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Offline Brietta

Re: What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?
« Reply #240 on: August 18, 2018, 10:28:50 PM »
No it was something like an employee had converted the basement into a room for his son.  It was all very strange.


Two different issues.

Snip
SC: And once the garage door was opened, it was not just a garage for a car, it was a type of "capsule" of about six by nine metres in size which became longer where there was a bed in the corner, and it was when we were searching this, the English man with grey hair whose identity I did not know, but who had explained this to me.


DCF: Yes.

SC: Humm... this garage belonged to a Portuguese man, the man from the laundry.

DCF: Yes.

SC: And when we entered the garage I asked who lived there, he replied that his son lived there and then there were distractions and because I was concentrated on the fifty year old English man, this man is Portuguese, it was only afterwards when I thought later about what we were searching for, it didn't occur to me and I think it is because of this that i mentioned it in my statement two weeks later, because I remember that there had been some distortions.

DCF: Yes.

SC: Of course with Murat there is Murat and the Russian individual, you know....I thought that we might well be looking for the totally wrong person and the fact that a bed existed in the garage and some children's toys.

DCF: Yes.

SC: I thought, ohhh...its worth mentioning this and that's the reason I mentioned it in my statement.
DCF: Fine, now (inaudible) describe the Portuguese man, the laundry man to me, yes'

SC: Yes.
I am certain that I read about this at the beginning, which (inaudible)' I think that afterwards, and afterwards coincides with the fact that he was the man from the laundry and of the van parked there, because as i have already explained, we were here in a small street here above which linked to the main road and to everything beside here on top, the rest was all pathways and I remember that on two or three occasions I thought...this is a dead end road, the van was parked there, I never saw anyone and more than once assumed that it would be cleaning staff and only this thought coincided with the presence of the man from the laundry, and if there were any reply to be made in relation to the link between the van parked there and the laundry man.
DCF: Yes.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm



Snip
The news comes as Expat Des Taylor, 78, a retired architect, said he tried to call police twice when he saw on television that Murat had been detained to warn them of special features in the house which may go undetected.

However when he called police headquarters in Portimao he says he was told to ring back later because they could not understand English.

He tried again to no avail, and finally had to ask his house maid to call two more stations before anyone took his details last night – 48 hours after the search began.

Mr Taylor said today: "The Portuguese police are useless."

He revealed that the house – 100 yards from where Madeleine was snatched - had a 9ft by 5ft basement hidden under the removable tiles in the living room. It is believed police have re-entered the property and are searching it today.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1551744/Madeleine-police-want-to-interview-Russian.html

"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?
« Reply #241 on: August 18, 2018, 10:33:22 PM »
Not at all, you posted an example that was particularly ambiguous.
There was nothing remotely ambiguous about my post.  The point was I (a non-expert) could tell the record wasn’t right, something which the experts should have got right in the first place but didn’t, therefore I was able to criticise the work they did without having the same skill set or knowledge as them.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline slartibartfast

Re: What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?
« Reply #242 on: August 18, 2018, 10:38:09 PM »
There was nothing remotely ambiguous about my post.  The point was I (a non-expert) could tell the record wasn’t right, something which the experts should have got right in the first place but didn’t, therefore I was able to criticise the work they did without having the same skill set or knowledge as them.

You knew the test pressing was not right, that makes you an expert. A layman would says it didn’t sound right and get the experts to investigate.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?
« Reply #243 on: August 18, 2018, 10:43:02 PM »
You knew the test pressing was not right, that makes you an expert. A layman would says it didn’t sound right and get the experts to investigate.
I am not an expert.  I know nothing about recording music or test pressings, I am not a sound engineer or record producer I am a consumer, with a pair of working ears and a brain.  I said it didn’t sound right and my opinion was shared by others both consumers and people within the industry.  My point stands.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Robittybob1

Re: What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?
« Reply #244 on: August 18, 2018, 10:44:28 PM »
Thanks Brietta -
IMO the place Stephen Carpenter is talking about is opposite the McCanns apartment block, not the place Mr Taylor is talking about.
So was the Laundry man an employee of Ocean Club?  Did he have access to keys to the apartments?  What was the laundry man's name.
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Offline Sunny

Re: What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?
« Reply #245 on: August 18, 2018, 10:46:17 PM »
I am not an expert.  I know nothing about recording music or test pressings, I am not a sound engineer or record producer I am a consumer, with a pair of working ears and a brain.  I said it didn’t sound right and my opinion was shared by others both consumers and people within the industry.  My point stands.

How did you get to hear a test pressing then Vertigo Swirl. I would imagine you would have to have some connection with the record industry to hear one.

I imagine anyone could tell if a song sounded wrong but then how do you know that isn't how the producer etc wanted it to sound?  Music choice is a very personal thing IMO.
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?
« Reply #246 on: August 18, 2018, 10:50:24 PM »
How did you get to hear a test pressing then Vertigo Swirl. I would imagine you would have to have some connection with the record industry to hear one.

I imagine anyone could tell if a song sounded wrong but then how do you know that isn't how the producer etc wanted it to sound?  Music choice is a very personal thing IMO.
My connection is with a musician, who passed me a copy of the test pressing for my views, do you require any further information?  My view was that of someone who listens to a lot of prerecorded music, but that doesn’t make me an expert in making music or recording it.   
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline slartibartfast

Re: What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?
« Reply #247 on: August 18, 2018, 10:56:04 PM »
My connection is with a musician, who passed me a copy of the test pressing for my views, do you require any further information?  My view was that of someone who listens to a lot of prerecorded music, but that doesn’t make me an expert in making music or recording it.

“I’m involved in a record release and I know from listening to the test pressing it’s not right.  It needs re-mastering.  I have absolutely no idea how this is done but I know it sounds wrong from my own (and others) observations.  Not being an expert in the process, should I flag up my concerns and get it re-mastered.

How do you know it needs remastering?
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?
« Reply #248 on: August 18, 2018, 10:57:20 PM »
“I’m involved in a record release and I know from listening to the test pressing it’s not right.  It needs re-mastering.  I have absolutely no idea how this is done but I know it sounds wrong from my own (and others) observations.  Not being an expert in the process, should I flag up my concerns and get it re-mastered.

How do you know it needs remastering?
Because it sounded shit. 
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline slartibartfast

Re: What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?
« Reply #249 on: August 18, 2018, 10:58:18 PM »
Because it sounded shit.

So how did you know it wasn’t just a duff pressing?
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?
« Reply #250 on: August 18, 2018, 11:12:14 PM »
So how did you know it wasn’t just a duff pressing?
Maybe it was, whatever it was, it was no good and not a faithful reproduction of the original recording I was played.  Anyway, this has gone far off topic now, I’ve made my point, you think I’m an idiot as usual, let’s leave it there.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline kizzy

Re: What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?
« Reply #251 on: August 21, 2018, 09:14:55 AM »
Naieve again... Professionals can be wrong and make mistakes  every day

correct - just wonder D what you make of this.


The hire car sampling.


In the last post I showed how the existing DNA profile from the car sample could be used along with DNA profiles from McCann family & friends + a others to enhance our understanding of who might have contributed to the DNA profile and thus how likely it is that Maddy was one of those people.

Now I would like to consider what else should have been done in 2007 as soon as the DNA profile was known.

The whole of the carpet from the car boot should have been retained and sealed as evidence. It should have been cut into many (at least 100) small pieces in a grid like fashion ad each piece subjected to DNA extraction and LCN DNA analysis.

In addition random samples should have been taken from all interior areas of the car, seats, carpets, swabs from door handles, windows, floor (e.g.under car boot carpet) etc. Perhaps a further 100 samples. These should also have been subjected to LCN DNA analysis.

What would this sampling & testing reveal?

Had this been done several things might have been revealed including:-

1. Was it possible to get DNA profiles from any other parts of the vehicle?

2. Were the 15 (or more or less) Maddy markers present anywhere else in the vehicle?

3. Were there parts of the vehicle that gave single person DNA profiles? (I am aware of the Gerry McCann profile from the key fob I'm talking about the car itself.

4. Were the 15 Maddy markers present in other pieces of carpet from the boot?

5. Were the 22 other markers from the car boot present in any other samples?

6. Were there samples that included markers not found among the 37 in the car boot sample?

7. Was there an area of the car boot carpet that gave significantly poor or zero DNA results?

What might any or these results indicate or prove?
1. If yes then these profiles might be used to show how the 15 Maddy markers could have come together in the single sample from the boot.
2. If yes then the pattern of profiles seen would show whether the 15 Maddy markers were present in only one or a few areas of the car or were widespread. If they were present only in one area that would indicate her body could have been placed in the boot at some point. If widespread the chances are that these markers are coming from the DNA of others.

3. Any single person profiles would identify people who had definitely been in the vehicle (or their DNA transferred there. Clearly a single person profile that matched Maddy's would be significant, but others could also be used in a subtraction analysis on other samples.

4. If yes this would identify an area (or areas) that had Maddy's markers. The size and shape of any such areas would be very informative. e.g. a few drips spread out, a single small area consistent with a pool of liquid soaking into the carpet, a ring with a blank area in the center consistent with cleaning of a spill or leak etc

5. The presence of these other 22 markers in other samples, especially any single ID samples would permit subtraction analysis on the boot sample

6. This would show whether the car boot sample contained all the markers present in the car or not. Creating a complete picture of the amount of DNA contamination in the car.

7. This would indicate an area that had been specifically cleaned shortly before the car was seized as evidence.


Why weren't these things done?

I am at a complete loss to explain why these things or at least some of them were not done. The case was huge worldwide news at the time. The McCann's were being suspected of disposing of Maddy's body. The evidence from the single sample in the car boot suggested that could be the case but was inconclusive. Here was a great opportunity to either clear the McCann's or gather evidence that would help to prove they did dispose of Maddy's body. Why did no one.... NOT EVEN THE McCANN's themselves..... insist that this car was examined thoroughly and every scrap of evidence extracted?

http://my-mccann-thoughts.blogspot.com/
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 09:43:08 AM by kizzy »

Offline Robittybob1

Re: What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?
« Reply #252 on: August 21, 2018, 10:11:30 AM »
Kizzy - I see that protocol has been devised by Richard Phillips. (RP)

Unless RP has DNA analysis experience I wonder if he is certain this will work.  I would like to see this done actually to see if it can work. 

The interesting out come if say the DNA was a mixed sample from 3 people we might get sample sites that are from one or two persons.  and if these others were subtracted from the result (37 alleles)  and see if what remains is all from Madeleine. 
It would be horrendously expensive.
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Offline kizzy

Re: What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?
« Reply #253 on: August 21, 2018, 10:25:48 AM »
Kizzy - I see that protocol has been devised by Richard Phillips. (RP)

Unless RP has DNA analysis experience I wonder if he is certain this will work.  I would like to see this done actually to see if it can work. 

The interesting out come if say the DNA was a mixed sample from 3 people we might get sample sites that are from one or two persons.  and if these others were subtracted from the result (37 alleles)  and see if what remains is all from Madeleine. 
It would be horrendously expensive.


IIRC he was a scientist.

Surly it would not have cost more than 11 million + what has already been spent.

if it could have either, prove or disprove the mcns involvement

Offline Robittybob1

Re: What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?
« Reply #254 on: August 21, 2018, 10:39:22 AM »

IIRC he was a scientist.

Surly it would not have cost more than 11 million + what has already been spent.

if it could have either, prove or disprove the mcns involvement
They would need to do some tests to see if the method gave valid results, to know how reliable it was.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 01:07:25 AM by John »
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John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.