I still think that Eddie was influenced by something to alert as he did in apartment 5A and all I can think of are scents left by the previous investigation which used substances with which he was likely to be familiar and 5A the only place which had been treated with them.
That is only your thoughts.
Going back to basics - it wasn't a 100% nothing... found in there. 5A
That is why were here today - imo something was found.
Yet nothing - nothing 100% nothing was found in any other apartment.
I still think that Eddie was influenced by something to alert as he did in apartment 5A and all I can think of are scents left by the previous investigation which used substances with which he was likely to be familiar and 5A the only place which had been treated with them.
I still think that Eddie was influenced by something to alert as he did in apartment 5A and all I can think of are scents left by the previous investigation which used substances with which he was likely to be familiar and 5A the only place which had been treated with them.
That's an interesting observation Brietta and would explain the alerts in 5a but not elsewhere. It would be interesting to know if any of the chemicals used by CSI have an impact on these dogs. Maybe someone has come across this previously.Wasn't it noted by Grime that the effects of masking are minimised. The police would know if chemicals used by the police routinely prevented a cadaver dog from doing its job.
Did Grime or Harrison ever make reference to this possibility in any of their conclusions because if they didn't I feel that was a serious ommission.
Still there was nothing to ‘misinterpret’ with Murat because there were no alerts....even though that forensic fluid used in apartment 5a had been used there too.
One might well presume a forensic team visited the Murat residence to collect samples and in the process use substances for detecting blood ... but I am afraid it requires a cite to substantiate that presumption.
Here you go.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/may/16/ukcrime.gilestremlett
And there was still no alerts in Murat’s villa even though substances would have been used in the villa that were used in 5a....I believe dispelling a belief on your part that they may have been the cause of the alerts in 5a.
With respect ... your cite mentions nothing about searching for blood using a substance such as ~ "Kastle-Mayer" peroxide test ~ which means it is not a valid cite.
Which in my opinion makes your following sentence ... just as your first was ... inaccurate and misleading.
With respect ... your cite mentions nothing about searching for blood using a substance such as ~ "Kastle-Mayer" peroxide test ~ which means it is not a valid cite.
Which in my opinion makes your following sentence ... just as your first was ... inaccurate and misleading.
and someof us know exactly why
I still think that Eddie was influenced by something to alert as he did in apartment 5A and all I can think of are scents left by the previous investigation which used substances with which he was likely to be familiar and 5A the only place which had been treated with them.
11
I don't know what you mean by 'treated with them'. As I understand it the only substance which would have come into contact with any part of the apartment would have been distilled water used to moisten a swab. The swab would then be tested with the substances, not the source stain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aPz_AV0t3U
I don't know what you mean by 'treated with them'. As I understand it the only substance which would have come into contact with any part of the apartment would have been distilled water used to moisten a swab. The swab would then be tested with the substances, not the source stain.As well as the dragon's blood used in the search for usable fingerprints ... chemicals for the detection of blood were also used
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aPz_AV0t3U
And the tests would not be carried out in the apartment either. Swabs would be used to retrive samples on any indicated blood present. test are done in laboritories...
As well as the dragon's blood used in the search for usable fingerprints ... chemicals for the detection of blood were also used
Snip
Also, innumerable tracks [footprints] that were taken to be canine in origin mixed with red- and white-coloured chemical products, as used to see fingerprints
Snip
There proceeded the search for possible blood traces in all of the apartment, using a variable- wave light source appropriate for the task.This search resulted in the detection of several spots having a red-brown tone that suggested blood, which were subjected to a "Kastle-Mayer" peroxidise test, the result obtained, in all cases, being negative.
There also proceeded the observation and search for blood traces inside the apartment using a chemical product to find latent blood traces. In the application of the referred product no results characteristic of the presence of blood traces were found
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
We've all watched the video of a dog familiar with crime scenes reacting excitedly on the approach to apartment 5A .
Why would he do that unless, to paraphrase Martin Grime, he smelled a scent with which he was familiar? Could that scent to which he was familiar have been the scent of a crime scene where he would be able to participate in what to him was the game of search? as per his training.
As well as the dragon's blood used in the search for usable fingerprints ... chemicals for the detection of blood were also used
Snip
Also, innumerable tracks [footprints] that were taken to be canine in origin mixed with red- and white-coloured chemical products, as used to see fingerprints
Snip
There proceeded the search for possible blood traces in all of the apartment, using a variable- wave light source appropriate for the task.This search resulted in the detection of several spots having a red-brown tone that suggested blood, which were subjected to a "Kastle-Mayer" peroxidise test, the result obtained, in all cases, being negative.
There also proceeded the observation and search for blood traces inside the apartment using a chemical product to find latent blood traces. In the application of the referred product no results characteristic of the presence of blood traces were found
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
We've all watched the video of a dog familiar with crime scenes reacting excitedly on the approach to apartment 5A .
Why would he do that unless, to paraphrase Martin Grime, he smelled a scent with which he was familiar? Could that scent to which he was familiar have been the scent of a crime scene where he would be able to participate in what to him was the game of search? as per his training.
As well as the dragon's blood used in the search for usable fingerprints ... chemicals for the detection of blood were also used
Snip
Also, innumerable tracks [footprints] that were taken to be canine in origin mixed with red- and white-coloured chemical products, as used to see fingerprints
Snip
There proceeded the search for possible blood traces in all of the apartment, using a variable- wave light source appropriate for the task.This search resulted in the detection of several spots having a red-brown tone that suggested blood, which were subjected to a "Kastle-Mayer" peroxidise test, the result obtained, in all cases, being negative.
There also proceeded the observation and search for blood traces inside the apartment using a chemical product to find latent blood traces. In the application of the referred product no results characteristic of the presence of blood traces were found
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
We've all watched the video of a dog familiar with crime scenes reacting excitedly on the approach to apartment 5A .
Why would he do that unless, to paraphrase Martin Grime, he smelled a scent with which he was familiar? Could that scent to which he was familiar have been the scent of a crime scene where he would be able to participate in what to him was the game of search? as per his training.
I would say the apartment must have lit up the dogs senses given the numerous chemicals which the Portuguese CSI previously applied to floors, walls, windows, door and furnishings etc. Was Martin Grime ever asked about this?
I would say the apartment must have lit up the dogs senses given the numerous chemicals which the Portuguese CSI previously applied to floors, walls, windows, door and furnishings etc. Was Martin Grime ever asked about this?
Does anyone have any information on Dragon Blood with reference to police searching for blood. I have looked and can't find any reference regarding this apart from in the Madeleine police files. Without knowing what this actually is we surely can't answer the post that starts this thread.
IMO the thread is irrelevant anyway.
Mr Grime's report and any forensic reports become evidence under Portuguese law.
Should the case come to court any such report is subject to scrutiny and evaluation by the court.
The Judge may choose if he so wishes appoint an expert in the field, from anywhere in the world, to explain the significance of the reports to the court.
In a nutshell what the punters on here think is neither here nor there.
In a nutshell what the punters on here think about any aspect of the disappearance of a missing child is neither here nor there.
Absolutely agree.
Sorry, I didn't read far enough. I expect it was Luminol. I also expect he'd come across it before. It might indeed have told him he was approaching a crime scene, but would it have caused alerts?I thought that was a good point. If we can see traces of Luminol we might think we are approaching a crime scene. So they must have thoroughly cleaned the apartment after the PJ left.
IMO the thread is irrelevant anyway.Is it in court?
Mr Grime's report and any forensic reports become evidence under Portuguese law.
Should the case come to court any such report is subject to scrutiny and evaluation by the court.
The Judge may choose if he so wishes appoint an expert in the field, from anywhere in the world, to explain the significance of the reports to the court.
In a nutshell what the punters on here think is neither here nor there.
Does anyone have any information on Dragon Blood with reference to police searching for blood. I have looked and can't find any reference regarding this apart from in the Madeleine police files. Without knowing what this actually is we surely can't answer the post that starts this thread.
I thought that was a good point. If we can see traces of Luminol we might think we are approaching a crime scene. So they must have thoroughly cleaned the apartment after the PJ left.I agree with G-Unit that the unnamed chemical used was probably Luminol.
No doubt the dog could sense luminol. How that alters Eddie's response is unknown.
I agree with G-Unit that the unnamed chemical used was probably Luminol.
We have only seen video of areas associated with McCann which makes it impossible to assess the dog's reaction on approach to other places ... but Martin Grime makes reference to the dog becoming excitable as he walked along the pathway to the door of 5A.
To the extent that he did not obey the 'sit' command prior to entry. We saw it demonstrated in the garage sequence that he was trained to sit and then given the command to search.
We've seen the window which the dog had to pass covered in dragon's blood (fingerprint powder) precisely the area as noted by Martin Grime, where his intense interest began.
We have also seen his lengthy inspection of the apartment sniffing everywhere and anywhere before eventually barking.
Thank you for finding that information on Dragons blood Brietta.There is a full video showing the dogs in the other apartments. (well Eddie at least for I've never watched it all the way through). I'll get the link for you.
I can understand why the PJ didn't release videos of the dogs in the other apartments as they didn't alert to them so what would be the point from their point of view. However, from our point of view it probably would have been better to see the dogs behaviour and Martin Grime guiding them so that the questions some have asked, regarding his possible directing the dogs would be silenced or held up as correct. I believe that he was professional and did it correctly as he had been doing the job for years.
I also cannot see the use of chemicals affecting the dogs as they would have been used to searching crime scenes with forensic residue. From what I have seen and read cadaver dogs with their incredible noses do not alert everywhere only in specific places which would indicate that the chemicals are irrelevant.
All the above post is IMO.
There is a full video showing the dogs in the other apartments. (well Eddie at least for I've never watched it all the way through). I'll get the link for you.
https://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8
Thank you so much Robittybob1, one for me to watch later as I am off to work in a moment. There is so much to read and watch in the case. 8((()*/And a one and a half hour video of a dog going here there and everywhere is particularly hard to watch. I have not achieved it yet.
I agree with G-Unit that the unnamed chemical used was probably Luminol.
We have only seen video of areas associated with McCann which makes it impossible to assess the dog's reaction on approach to other places ... but Martin Grime makes reference to the dog becoming excitable as he walked along the pathway to the door of 5A.
To the extent that he did not obey the 'sit' command prior to entry. We saw it demonstrated in the garage sequence that he was trained to sit and then given the command to search.
We've seen the window which the dog had to pass covered in dragon's blood (fingerprint powder) precisely the area as noted by Martin Grime, where his intense interest began.
We have also seen his lengthy inspection of the apartment sniffing everywhere and anywhere before eventually barking.
Thank you for finding that information on Dragons blood Brietta.
I can understand why the PJ didn't release videos of the dogs in the other apartments as they didn't alert to them so what would be the point from their point of view. However, from our point of view it probably would have been better to see the dogs behaviour and Martin Grime guiding them so that the questions some have asked, regarding his possible directing the dogs would be silenced or held up as correct. I believe that he was professional and did it correctly as he had been doing the job for years.
I also cannot see the use of chemicals affecting the dogs as they would have been used to searching crime scenes with forensic residue. From what I have seen and read cadaver dogs with their incredible noses do not alert everywhere only in specific places which would indicate that the chemicals are irrelevant.
All the above post is IMO.
Thank you for finding that information on Dragons blood Brietta.
I can understand why the PJ didn't release videos of the dogs in the other apartments as they didn't alert to them so what would be the point from their point of view. However, from our point of view it probably would have been better to see the dogs behaviour and Martin Grime guiding them so that the questions some have asked, regarding his possible directing the dogs would be silenced or held up as correct. I believe that he was professional and did it correctly as he had been doing the job for years.
I also cannot see the use of chemicals affecting the dogs as they would have been used to searching crime scenes with forensic residue. From what I have seen and read cadaver dogs with their incredible noses do not alert everywhere only in specific places which would indicate that the chemicals are irrelevant.
All the above post is IMO.
The use of chemicals might not affect the alerts but might explain eddies alleged initial excitement when entering 5a
5A was the first location searched in Portugal. Perhaps that contributed to Eddie's excitement as he began to do his job. We don't know which areas of the apartment were sprayed with chemicals, nor do we know if any of them have been studied for their effects on the work of these dogs. Therefore we're really unable to reach any meaningful conclusions in my opinion.
well you don't know do you so it is all just guess work.
It could go both ways [evidence could be missed] if that's the case imo
No evidence is no evidence. Isn't that the argument used against the dog alerts?No evidence is no evidence irrespective of what is being argued. Enough deflection now ... back on topic please.
Thank you for finding that information on Dragons blood Brietta.
I can understand why the PJ didn't release videos of the dogs in the other apartments as they didn't alert to them so what would be the point from their point of view. However, from our point of view it probably would have been better to see the dogs behaviour and Martin Grime guiding them so that the questions some have asked, regarding his possible directing the dogs would be silenced or held up as correct. I believe that he was professional and did it correctly as he had been doing the job for years.
I also cannot see the use of chemicals affecting the dogs as they would have been used to searching crime scenes with forensic residue. From what I have seen and read cadaver dogs with their incredible noses do not alert everywhere only in specific places which would indicate that the chemicals are irrelevant.
All the above post is IMO.
I agree.
Evidence of an abductor may have been missed.
You can see Eddie in action in the other Tapas 9 apartments on this video. Note that Grime is walking down the same pathway for a second time & imo there was no "straining at the leash" visible then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4NMYPsFKb8&feature=youtu.be&t=38m10s
Not only no straining at the leash ... he remained sitting for a considerable period while waiting to be told to start work.So was there a point you are making?
An entirely different approach to that also recorded on video when he burst over the threshold of apartment 5A.
So was there a point you are making?
There were no CSI chemicals in 5B, 5D or 5H which may have primed the dog to alert.....So are we sure the other apartments occupied by the Tapas 9 were not checked for traces of blood with luminol?
So are we sure the other apartments occupied by the Tapas 9 were not checked for traces of blood with luminol?
Were they just given a general search and a sniff over by a sniffer dog in the early stages?