Could the alerts in 5a have been caused by previous CSI chemicals?

[Miss Taken Identity]

I don't know what you mean by 'treated with them'. As I understand it the only substance which would have come into contact with any part of the apartment would have been distilled water used to moisten a swab. The swab would then be tested with the substances, not the source stain.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aPz_AV0t3U

And the tests would not be carried out in the apartment either. Swabs would be used  to retrive  samples on any indicated blood present. test are done in laboritories...

[Brietta]

I don't know what you mean by 'treated with them'. As I understand it the only substance which would have come into contact with any part of the apartment would have been distilled water used to moisten a swab. The swab would then be tested with the substances, not the source stain.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aPz_AV0t3U

As well as the dragon's blood used in the search for usable fingerprints ... chemicals for the detection of blood were also used

Snip
Also, innumerable tracks [footprints] that were taken to be canine in origin mixed with red- and white-coloured chemical products, as used to see fingerprints

Snip
There proceeded the search for possible blood traces in all of the apartment, using a variable- wave light source appropriate for the task.This search resulted in the detection of several spots having a red-brown tone that suggested blood, which were subjected to a "Kastle-Mayer" peroxidise test, the result obtained, in all cases, being negative.

There also proceeded the observation and search for blood traces inside the apartment using a chemical product to find latent blood traces. In the application of the referred product no results characteristic of the presence of blood traces were found
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm


We've all watched the video of a dog familiar with crime scenes reacting excitedly on the approach to apartment 5A .

Why would he do that unless, to paraphrase Martin Grime, he smelled a scent with which he was familiar?  Could that scent to which he was familiar have been the scent of a crime scene where he would be able to participate in what to him was the game of search? as per his training.

[Brietta]

And the tests would not be carried out in the apartment either. Swabs would be used  to retrive  samples on any indicated blood present. test are done in laboritories...

At a later stage swabs were indeed used for laboratory testing after the British dog inspection ~ 12 Processos Vol XII Page 3224 to 3225  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm ... but the first Portuguese investigation used chemicals prior to the British dog inspection. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm

[slartibartfast]

As well as the dragon's blood used in the search for usable fingerprints ... chemicals for the detection of blood were also used

Snip
Also, innumerable tracks [footprints] that were taken to be canine in origin mixed with red- and white-coloured chemical products, as used to see fingerprints

Snip
There proceeded the search for possible blood traces in all of the apartment, using a variable- wave light source appropriate for the task.This search resulted in the detection of several spots having a red-brown tone that suggested blood, which were subjected to a "Kastle-Mayer" peroxidise test, the result obtained, in all cases, being negative.

There also proceeded the observation and search for blood traces inside the apartment using a chemical product to find latent blood traces. In the application of the referred product no results characteristic of the presence of blood traces were found
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm


We've all watched the video of a dog familiar with crime scenes reacting excitedly on the approach to apartment 5A .

Why would he do that unless, to paraphrase Martin Grime, he smelled a scent with which he was familiar?  Could that scent to which he was familiar have been the scent of a crime scene where he would be able to participate in what to him was the game of search? as per his training.

Unless you have some evidence to support that, people may view it as myth making.

[G-Unit]

As well as the dragon's blood used in the search for usable fingerprints ... chemicals for the detection of blood were also used

Snip
Also, innumerable tracks [footprints] that were taken to be canine in origin mixed with red- and white-coloured chemical products, as used to see fingerprints

Snip
There proceeded the search for possible blood traces in all of the apartment, using a variable- wave light source appropriate for the task.This search resulted in the detection of several spots having a red-brown tone that suggested blood, which were subjected to a "Kastle-Mayer" peroxidise test, the result obtained, in all cases, being negative.

There also proceeded the observation and search for blood traces inside the apartment using a chemical product to find latent blood traces. In the application of the referred product no results characteristic of the presence of blood traces were found
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm


We've all watched the video of a dog familiar with crime scenes reacting excitedly on the approach to apartment 5A .

Why would he do that unless, to paraphrase Martin Grime, he smelled a scent with which he was familiar?  Could that scent to which he was familiar have been the scent of a crime scene where he would be able to participate in what to him was the game of search? as per his training.

Sorry, I didn't read far enough. I expect it was Luminol. I also expect he'd come across it before. It might indeed have told him he was approaching a crime scene, but would it have caused alerts?

[John]

As well as the dragon's blood used in the search for usable fingerprints ... chemicals for the detection of blood were also used

Snip
Also, innumerable tracks [footprints] that were taken to be canine in origin mixed with red- and white-coloured chemical products, as used to see fingerprints

Snip
There proceeded the search for possible blood traces in all of the apartment, using a variable- wave light source appropriate for the task.This search resulted in the detection of several spots having a red-brown tone that suggested blood, which were subjected to a "Kastle-Mayer" peroxidise test, the result obtained, in all cases, being negative.

There also proceeded the observation and search for blood traces inside the apartment using a chemical product to find latent blood traces. In the application of the referred product no results characteristic of the presence of blood traces were found
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm


We've all watched the video of a dog familiar with crime scenes reacting excitedly on the approach to apartment 5A .

Why would he do that unless, to paraphrase Martin Grime, he smelled a scent with which he was familiar?  Could that scent to which he was familiar have been the scent of a crime scene where he would be able to participate in what to him was the game of search? as per his training.

I would say the apartment must have lit up the dogs senses given the numerous chemicals which the Portuguese CSI previously applied to floors, walls, windows, door and furnishings etc. Was Martin Grime ever asked about this?

[Mr Gray]

I would say the apartment must have lit up the dogs senses given the numerous chemicals which the Portuguese CSI previously applied to floors, walls, windows, door and furnishings etc. Was Martin Grime ever asked about this?

Good point John

[Brietta]

I would say the apartment must have lit up the dogs senses given the numerous chemicals which the Portuguese CSI previously applied to floors, walls, windows, door and furnishings etc. Was Martin Grime ever asked about this?

I seem to remember from somewhere that Martin Grime asked of the Portuguese officers if such chemicals had been used I've no idea where I've got that impression from so haven't mentioned it prior to now as I have no cite for it.

It is from there that I began thinking about it ... I don't think he gave any reason for asking but just the fact he did ~ if my memory of it is correct ~ suggests there must have been one. 

[Sunny]

Does anyone have any information on Dragon Blood with reference to police searching for blood. I have looked and can't find any reference regarding this apart from in the Madeleine police files.  Without knowing what this actually is we surely can't answer the post that starts this thread.

[Alice Purjorick]

Does anyone have any information on Dragon Blood with reference to police searching for blood. I have looked and can't find any reference regarding this apart from in the Madeleine police files.  Without knowing what this actually is we surely can't answer the post that starts this thread.

IMO the thread is irrelevant anyway.
Mr Grime's report and any forensic reports become evidence under Portuguese law.
Should the case come to court any such report is subject to scrutiny and evaluation by the court.
The Judge may choose if he so wishes appoint an expert in the field, from anywhere in the world, to explain the significance of the reports to the court.
In a nutshell what the punters on here think is neither here nor there.

[Erngath]

IMO the thread is irrelevant anyway.
Mr Grime's report and any forensic reports become evidence under Portuguese law.
Should the case come to court any such report is subject to scrutiny and evaluation by the court.
The Judge may choose if he so wishes appoint an expert in the field, from anywhere in the world, to explain the significance of the reports to the court.
In a nutshell what the punters on here think is neither here nor there.

In a nutshell what the punters on here think about any aspect of the disappearance of a missing child is neither here nor there.
Absolutely agree.

[Alice Purjorick]

In a nutshell what the punters on here think about any aspect of the disappearance of a missing child is neither here nor there.
Absolutely agree.

Well we know the child disappeared without trace sometime between 17:30 and 22:00 on May 3rd 2007.
Beyond that is anyone's guess. The sad fact is a whole industry grew up on the back of it and we, like it or not, are part of the ensuing circus witnessed by our presence here. If we all found it as thoroughly distasteful as some suggest, this forum would not exist.

[Robittybob1]

Sorry, I didn't read far enough. I expect it was Luminol. I also expect he'd come across it before. It might indeed have told him he was approaching a crime scene, but would it have caused alerts?

I thought that was a good point.  If we can see traces of Luminol we might think we are approaching a crime scene.  So they must have thoroughly cleaned the apartment after the PJ left.
No doubt the dog could sense luminol.  How that alters Eddie's response is unknown.

[Robittybob1]

IMO the thread is irrelevant anyway.
Mr Grime's report and any forensic reports become evidence under Portuguese law.
Should the case come to court any such report is subject to scrutiny and evaluation by the court.
The Judge may choose if he so wishes appoint an expert in the field, from anywhere in the world, to explain the significance of the reports to the court.
In a nutshell what the punters on here think is neither here nor there.

Is it in court?

[Brietta]

Does anyone have any information on Dragon Blood with reference to police searching for blood. I have looked and can't find any reference regarding this apart from in the Madeleine police files.  Without knowing what this actually is we surely can't answer the post that starts this thread.

I don't think dragon's blood is anything extraordinary and I have no idea why it is called that as it is just another fingerprint powder ... they could have called it red.

Snip
Fingerprint powders are supplied in field kits in several colors, but black, gray, and dragon's blood are the most frequently used. The commercial powders have been developed over many years. They are dependable and of the proper composition. Choosing the powder that best contrasts with the background is a good rule of thumb to follow. Dragon's blood has the advantage of showing up on either a dark or light background. However, the choice of powder depends upon the objective of the investigator-whether the latent print is being developed for photographing or lifting. A test should be made of the area selected for the test print. First, it should be lightly brushed with powder to see if any unseen latent fingerprint is actually present. Then the surface can be wiped clean and the test print made and processed
http://www.tpub.com/maa/181.htm