UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on July 02, 2019, 10:35:51 AM
-
It seems to me one of the main determining factors is land mass v population. I guess its fairly obvious that countries with high density populations will fare better in producing a find than those with low density populations. The latter indicative of countries with large uninhabited areas.
As an example:
Disappeared Child Country Density Population KM2 Discovered Rank
1. Beaumont children Aus 3 N 192
2. Azaria Chamberlin Aus 3 N 192
3. Keith Bennett Eng 274 N 32
4. Sarah Payne Eng 274 Y 32
5. Karen Hadaway Eng 274 Y 32
6. Nicola Fellows Eng 274 Y 32
9. Madeleine McCann Por 112 N 73
8. Ben Needham Kos 81 N 97
9. Jennifer Klein US 34 N 146
10. Joanna Cipriano POR 112 N 73
11. Rui Pedro POR 112 N 73
12. Rene Hasee POR 112 N 73
NOTES:
1. Keith Bennett is an anomaly but we know his body is undiscovered on The Moors
3, 4, 5 children disappeared and discovered within England but figs are for whole of UK
8. disappeared from the Greek island of Kos but figs are for whole of Greece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density
-
You might like to add Joana Cipriano to your list as well as Rui Pedro, both disappeared in Portugal never to be found again.
-
And Rene Hasee
-
The population density of the Algarve is 90 per sq km btw.
-
You might like to add Joana Cipriano to your list as well as Rui Pedro, both disappeared in Portugal never to be found again.
Actually Joana was murdered by her uncle. The only reason she disappeared was because he claimed to have fed her remains to the pigs.
-
Actually Joana was murdered by her uncle. The only reason she disappeared was because he claimed to have fed her remains to the pigs.
She remains missing, no forensic trace of her has ever been discovered to prove her death and there is evidence to suggest that her mother and uncle have been the victims of a serious miscarriage of justice.
-
The population density of the Algarve is 90 per sq km btw.
Where are you getting your figs from?
-
Where are you getting your figs from?
Wikipedia. I don't dispute your figures, just saying that the population of the Algarve is lower than for the whole of Portugal.
-
Actually Joana was murdered by her uncle. The only reason she disappeared was because he claimed to have fed her remains to the pigs.
There is no proof she is dead... She was found guilty on a judgement of 2 to 1...so her parents, are convicted murderers but it's not proven beyond all doubt that they actually murdered her
-
There is no proof she is dead... She was found guilty on a judgement of 2 to 1...so her parents, are convicted murderers but it's not proven beyond all doubt that they actually murdered her
Whether it was proven or not she deserves to be on the list, as does Keith Bennett who we know was murdered by Ian Brady.
-
There is no proof she is dead... She was found guilty on a judgement of 2 to 1...so her parents, are convicted murderers but it's not proven beyond all doubt that they actually murdered her
Her parents didn't murder her. The only reason her mother was convicted was because she was complicit in the cover-up involving her brother. In any event, off topic!!
-
It seems to me one of the main determining factors is land mass v population. I guess its fairly obvious that countries with high density populations will fare better in producing a find than those with low density populations. The latter indicative of countries with large uninhabited areas.
As an example:
Disappeared Child Country Density Population KM2 Discovered Rank
1. Beaumont children Aus 3 N 192
2. Azaria Chamberlin Aus 3 N 192
3. Keith Bennett Eng 274 N 32
4. Sarah Payne Eng 274 Y 32
5. Karen Hadaway Eng 274 Y 32
6. Nicola Fellows Eng 274 Y 32
9. Madeleine McCann Por 112 N 73
8. Ben Needham Kos 81 N 97
9. Jennifer Klein US 34 N 146
NOTES:
1. Keith Bennett is an anomaly but we know his body is undiscovered on The Moors
3, 4, 5 children disappeared and discovered within England but figs are for whole of UK
8. disappeared from the Greek island of Kos but figs are for whole of Greece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density
The children that have been found their bodies were not concealed to any great degree. Perhaps that is the only thing determining a find ?
-
I believe of the more important aspects of recovering a disappeared child before any serious harm befalls him/her is the rapid response of the emergency services tasked with dealing with the situation.
I do not think it augurs well for the child if the authorities write them off at the start of the investigation when there is not a scintilla of evidence to justify what may have happened to them.
Deciding on 'whodunit' and looking for the evidence to fit to a suspect as opposed to finding out what actually happened to the child is not the text book way in which to progress a missing child case which is apparently the manner in which Madeleine's disappearance was dealt with.
======================================================
Information started circulating from sources connected to the Portuguese police that the story was full of holes from the side of the McCanns and their friends.
Indeed within two days of Madeleine disappearing, this crime correspondent was filing this piece in the Portuguese Daily: Diario of the Noticias: "Headline: a badly told story."
We started to receive information according to which the police suspected the theory they had apprehensions, didn't believe the theory that she had been kidnapped.
To conclude, the police started to suspect the parents from the word go.
JOSE MANUEL OLIVEIRA
Crime reporter, 'Diario de Noticias'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/7106086.stm
-
The children that have been found their bodies were not concealed to any great degree. Perhaps that is the only thing determining a find ?
Impossible to say really since we have no idea whether the bodies of those undiscovered are concealed or not. Bodies quickly decompose.
I tend to think those that are undiscovered have disappeared in places with large areas of uninhabited land and close to water too by way of oceans and seas.
-
I believe of the more important aspects of recovering a disappeared child before any serious harm befalls him/her is the rapid response of the emergency services tasked with dealing with the situation.
I do not think it augurs well for the child if the authorities write them off at the start of the investigation when there is not a scintilla of evidence to justify what may have happened to them.
Deciding on 'whodunit' and looking for the evidence to fit to a suspect as opposed to finding out what actually happened to the child is not the text book way in which to progress a missing child case which is apparently the manner in which Madeleine's disappearance was dealt with.
======================================================
Information started circulating from sources connected to the Portuguese police that the story was full of holes from the side of the McCanns and their friends.
Indeed within two days of Madeleine disappearing, this crime correspondent was filing this piece in the Portuguese Daily: Diario of the Noticias: "Headline: a badly told story."
We started to receive information according to which the police suspected the theory they had apprehensions, didn't believe the theory that she had been kidnapped.
To conclude, the police started to suspect the parents from the word go.
JOSE MANUEL OLIVEIRA
Crime reporter, 'Diario de Noticias'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/7106086.stm
That ignores the fact that in the days immediately following the disappearance the GNR and other elements conducted a ground search to a radius of 15km from Luz.
-
That ignores the fact that in the days immediately following the disappearance the GNR and other elements conducted a ground search to a radius of 15km from Luz.
The searches carried out by the GNR ~ the emergency services ~ volunteers et al are all well documented.
But as documented by Jose Manuel Oliveira the senior management team had organised in an entirely different way.
These were the guys who were responsible for the direction the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance would be conducted and according to Oliveira who was in that loop of the action they had decided appropriate action within hours.
That action which he outlined had nothing at all to do with promoting the search for Madeleine McCann. According to Oliveira they had made their decision and started promoting pursuit of that ... not Madeleine ... and the first step in that was his headline of "A Badly Told Story"
The guys doing the physical searching would in my opinion be in ignorance that senior management and their use of the press were ploughing a very different furrow from the one they were.
-
There is no proof she is dead... She was found guilty on a judgement of 2 to 1...so her parents, are convicted murderers but it's not proven beyond all doubt that they actually murdered her
Obvious a split decision is still OK, is it?
-
That ignores the fact that in the days immediately following the disappearance the GNR and other elements conducted a ground search to a radius of 15km from Luz.
Whatever the authorities believe in the early days they will be keen to recover the disappeared child as this will yield the greatest clues as to what exactly happened.
I've holidayed on the Algarve a couple of times but never really ventured inland. Going by Google satellite it appears one could take an inland route from PDL to Faro (airport) and hit some sparsely populated areas?
-
The searches carried out by the GNR ~ the emergency services ~ volunteers et al are all well documented.
But as documented by Jose Manuel Oliveira the senior management team had organised in an entirely different way.
These were the guys who were responsible for the direction the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance would be conducted and according to Oliveira who was in that loop of the action they had decided appropriate action within hours.
That action which he outlined had nothing at all to do with promoting the search for Madeleine McCann. According to Oliveira they had made their decision and started promoting pursuit of that ... not Madeleine ... and the first step in that was his headline of "A Badly Told Story"
The guys doing the physical searching would in my opinion be in ignorance that senior management and their use of the press were ploughing a very different furrow from the one they were.
Is there a link to Oliveira's article? I seem to remember one has been posted before, but how to find it.
By the way, I don't think they kept in the dark the Major in the GNR who was organising extensive ground searches, do you?
-
Whatever the authorities believe in the early days they will be keen to recover the disappeared child as this will yield the greatest clues as to what exactly happened.
I've holidayed on the Algarve a couple of times but never really ventured inland. Going by Google satellite it appears one could take an inland route from PDL to Faro (airport) and hit some sparsely populated areas?
I'm not sure where you are heading with this thought, so I'll try splitting things down.
1. There are two routes from Luz to Faro. The older route is the EN125, which runs through a lot of towns and villages. The newer route is the A22, a motorway which goes through nothing. The T9 would all have used the motorway on journeys between Luz and Faro.
2. Portugal is part of the Schengen Zone, which covers most of Europe. It means you can cross borders without being checked. So one can drive along the A22 and enter Spain without hinder. That might take perhaps an hour and a half from Luz, to enter a foreign country with a different police force.
3. If you are thinking of body concealment or disposal, anyone with knowledge of the terrain around Luz would know how to achieve that with ease. I now live inland from Luz, on a plot large enough to make MBM disappear, even if a thorough police search was conducted. There are hundreds or thousands of such plots.
Hopefully I have covered all bases.
-
Is there a link to Oliveira's article? I seem to remember one has been posted before, but how to find it.
By the way, I don't think they kept in the dark the Major in the GNR who was organising extensive ground searches, do you?
https://www.dn.pt/dossiers/sociedade/caso-maddie/noticias/interior/esta-e-uma-historia-muito-mal-contada-977892.html
In my opinion the answer to your second question is ... yes.
-
Whether it was proven or not she deserves to be on the list, as does Keith Bennett who we know was murdered by Ian Brady.
Why do we know Keith Bennett was murdered by Ian Brady?
-
Why do we know Keith Bennett was murdered by Ian Brady?
I'm not sure we do. Brady liked playing mind games .
-
https://www.dn.pt/dossiers/sociedade/caso-maddie/noticias/interior/esta-e-uma-historia-muito-mal-contada-977892.html
In my opinion the answer to your second question is ... yes.
*&(+(+
I've just read the article (again) and I interpret it as the police taking all reasonable steps to to handle all options.
If you care to start up a new thread, it would be an interesting topic to debate.
But I fear we are dreadfully off-topic here.
Once again *&(+(+
-
Why do we know Keith Bennett was murdered by Ian Brady?
This must have been a difficult question.
-
I'm not sure where you are heading with this thought, so I'll try splitting things down.
1. There are two routes from Luz to Faro. The older route is the EN125, which runs through a lot of towns and villages. The newer route is the A22, a motorway which goes through nothing. The T9 would all have used the motorway on journeys between Luz and Faro.
2. Portugal is part of the Schengen Zone, which covers most of Europe. It means you can cross borders without being checked. So one can drive along the A22 and enter Spain without hinder. That might take perhaps an hour and a half from Luz, to enter a foreign country with a different police force.
3. If you are thinking of body concealment or disposal, anyone with knowledge of the terrain around Luz would know how to achieve that with ease. I now live inland from Luz, on a plot large enough to make MBM disappear, even if a thorough police search was conducted. There are hundreds or thousands of such plots.
Hopefully I have covered all bases.
Yes, thanks.
I was just thinking someone with limited knowledge or just looking at a map could say take N125 from PDL, N266, IC1, IP2, N2 and end up at Faro having hit some sparsely populated areas.
My pet theory is that MM was abducted by someone staying in one of the apartments who could observe what was going on and may have had a hire car and left PDL Thu/Fri for a return flight from Faro.
-
Impossible to say really since we have no idea whether the bodies of those undiscovered are concealed or not. Bodies quickly decompose.
I tend to think those that are undiscovered have disappeared in places with large areas of uninhabited land and close to water too by way of oceans and seas.
I think it’s hard to make any firm conclusions with the small selection of disappearances you have used.
-
Why do we know Keith Bennett was murdered by Ian Brady?
OK, maybe he ran away from home to start a new life, The fact is, he is still missing.
-
This must have been a difficult question.
Difficult for whom? I’m sure it would be difficult for Keith’s family to know that people on the internet were questioning whether or not Ian Brady was involved in his disappearance, but do fill your boots, no skin off my nose.
-
Difficult for whom? I’m sure it would be difficult for Keith’s family to know that people on the internet were questioning whether or not Ian Brady was involved in his disappearance, but do fill your boots, no skin off my nose.
So you won’t/can’t answer the question?
-
So you won’t/can’t answer the question?
I did answer it. We don’t know for 100% certain. Maybe he didn’t. Maybe he didn’t kill any of the children. Happy now?
-
Why do we know Keith Bennett was murdered by Ian Brady?
This is a good question Slati. I cannot offer a cite as I heard this in confidence at a meeting re child protection.
There was a belief that Keith was a copy cat by someone known to Brady. and did it as a mark of approval and respect (god I feel sick even typing this). It is also believed that he isn't buried on the same moor where his other victims were found. Hindley was promised a lot to pin point the area, she couldn't be cause it may have been moved or she wasn't present when he was buried. There is more to that conversation- very interesting as well. I can't bring it to an open forum.
-
This is a good question Slati. I cannot offer a cite as I heard this in confidence at a meeting re child protection.
There was a belief that Keith was a copy cat by someone known to Brady. and did it as a mark of approval and respect (god I feel sick even typing this). It is also believed that he isn't buried on the same moor where his other victims were found. Hindley was promised a lot to pin point the area, she couldn't be cause it may have been moved or she wasn't present when he was buried. There is more to that conversation- very interesting as well. I can't bring it to an open forum.
Maybe VS assumed because Brady confessed, he had done it?
-
Maybe VS assumed because Brady confessed, he had done it?
I believe Hindley confessed way before Brady ever did, from prison and under no duress or likelihood of ever being released from prison.
-
Maybe VS assumed because Brady confessed, he had done it?
Maybe you assume he had done it, because he confessed, or don’t you believe he did it?
-
I believe Hindley confessed way before Brady ever did, from prison and under no duress or likelihood of ever being released from prison.
Hindley confessed because she was found being 'active' with Lesley Ann Downey on a tape. Before that she was saying he made her do it and all that cr@p. She only began helping find the childrens bodies on the expectation it would get her free on parole. She was a willing participant.They took photographs of where the children were buried as this gave some kind of sick pleasure. hence, why Brady never revealed where Keith was buried.
-
Hindley confessed because she was found being 'active' with Lesley Ann Downey on a tape. Before that she was saying he made her do it and all that cr@p. She only began helping find the childrens bodies on the expectation it would get her free on parole. She was a willing participant.They took photographs of where the children were buried as this gave some kind of sick pleasure. hence, why Brady never revealed where Keith was buried.
Like I said. Hindley confessed to involvement in the murder of Bennett long before Brady did.
-
I think it’s hard to make any firm conclusions with the small selection of disappearances you have used.
Which disappearances would you like me to include?
-
Which disappearances would you like me to include?
Is there any particular reason why you ignored my suggestions?
-
Which disappearances would you like me to include?
None in particular. It’s simply that your sample is too small to be able to draw any definitive conclusions.
-
None in particular. It’s simply that your sample is too small to be able to draw any definitive conclusions.
I agree with this. There are also many other factors to consider including the time and resources spent on looking for the missing child in the hours, days and weeks. after the disappearance, but even then it’s not a given that a body will be found. Also the resources and time available to the person doing the abduction and hiding plays an important part.
-
I agree with this. There are also many other factors to consider including the time and resources spent on looking for the missing child in the hours, days and weeks. after the disappearance, but even then it’s not a given that a body will be found. Also the resources and time available to the person doing the abduction and hiding plays an important part.
Agreed.
-
Is there any particular reason why you ignored my suggestions?
None whatsoever other than I haven't seen them. I'll go and look now!
-
None in particular. It’s simply that your sample is too small to be able to draw any definitive conclusions.
I agree. It's hardly scientific just a hypothesis to be developed!
-
I agree. It's hardly scientific just a hypothesis to be developed!
Ok, so to narrow down from country density to population density urban / extra urban / rural, etc where the crimes were committed. I believe this will give a more useful data set, but may be skewed by simple weight of numbers of pair of eyes. But I think a more pertinent factor may be opportunity afforded to the proximity of accessible remote locations, with low or negligible footfall.
Edit: Or, conversely, in densely populated areas, access to enclosed, secure premises. So maybe no correlation at all actually.
-
None whatsoever other than I haven't seen them. I'll go and look now!
Table now updated. If anyone else puts forward the names of children disappeared they can be added too.
-
Ok, so to narrow down from country density to population density urban / extra urban / rural, etc where the crimes were committed. I believe this will give a more useful data set, but may be skewed by simple weight of numbers of pair of eyes. But I think a more pertinent factor may be opportunity afforded to the proximity of accessible remote locations, with low or negligible footfall.
Edit: Or, conversely, in densely populated areas, access to enclosed, secure premises. So maybe no correlation at all actually.
It will need some thinking through to iron out all sorts eg the value a country places on disappeared children and means to investigate are just two that spring to mind!
-
It will need some thinking through to iron out all sorts eg the value a country places on disappeared children and means to investigate are just two that spring to mind!
I am sure there are a lot more disappeared children who's names we will never know. Some families live under the radar.
Only recently have we seen a rise in aknowledgement that British born children are being 'removed' from the birth country against their will. We could be talking tens of thousands over many years.
With regards to the locations of disappeared/murdered children this isn't an excersise which will throw up difinitive behaviours of kidknappers/abductors. reasons fall into these categories;
- Paedophiles who like to groom and abuse over a period of time with the child not in captivity but seen as a converted participant- by the paedophile!
Paedophiles who like to groom and abuse over a period of time with the child not in captivity like to groom and abuse over a period of time with the child not in captivity and is encouraged to bring friends along- which may lead to the child being a sex slave-not in captivity.
Paedophiles who like to snatch and keep children in captivity for self pleasure
Paedophiles who like to snatch and keep children in captivity as a sex slave /prostitute
Paedophiles who like to snatch and keep children in captivity to use as a victim of a 'snuff' movie
Paedophiles who are serial killers-like to snatch and keep children in captivity as a sex slave for a period of time-before killing and disposing of body.
Paedophiles who are serial killers like to snatch/rape/torture and drop in shallow grave. some like the idea of the child being found!- maybe not so much now with DNA etc.
You will also need to look at the behaviour. some children are easily found, as if this was deliberate, and some never found.