I can see the case of Joana Cipriano has a separate board and there is probably an existing thread on this board re the above but I'm unable to find it so I've started a new one, which might not meet everyone's approval but I've long since come to the conclusion that you can't please everyone!
Joana Cipriano's case was subject to the Portuguese Justice System which concluded she had been murdered.
Thus the case having being solved the possibility of a connection between two cases of two little girls vanishing without trace from villages in close proximity to each other was probably not given the deserved attention.
It wasn't given any attention at all.
In My Opinion The Cipriano Case was one of the worst Miscarriages of Justice of all time.
I can see the case of Joana Cipriano has a separate board and there is probably an existing thread on this board re the above but I'm unable to find it so I've started a new one, which might not meet everyone's approval but I've long since come to the conclusion that you can't please everyone!
Why Eleanor, surely you don't believe them both to be innocent? Even with Marcos Correia in tow, she laid the blame squarely at her brothers feet rendering her an accomplice after the fact by her own account of what had occurred. She even took the blame for him early on claiming that it was she who bashed her daughters head against the doorframe.
Why Eleanor, surely you don't believe them both to be innocent? Even with Marcos Correia in tow, she laid the blame squarely at her brothers feet rendering her an accomplice after the fact by her own account of what had occurred. She even took the blame for him early on claiming that it was she who bashed her daughters head against the doorframe.
I think both of them may well be innocent. No forensic evidence against either.... In fact no real evidence against either at the trial.... Apart from confessions... In the csde of Leonora... According to the Portuguese court beaten out if her by the PJ and amaral found guilty of trying to cover it up which makes him complicit. I haven't seen any confession of banging Joannas head off the door frame.
Leonoras problem was having been found guilty she had no chance if parole if she protested innocence.
Looking at the case in detail
No real evidence... No forensics... PJ guilty of torture... Amaral guilty of perjury
And Cristovao was involved in this one as well.
I think both of them may well be innocent. No forensic evidence against either.... In fact no real evidence against either at the trial.... Apart from confessions... In the csde of Leonora... According to the Portuguese court beaten out if her by the PJ and amaral found guilty of trying to cover it up which makes him complicit. I haven't seen any confession of banging Joannas head off the door frame.
Leonoras problem was having been found guilty she had no chance if parole if she protested innocence.
Looking at the case in detail
No real evidence... No forensics... PJ guilty of torture... Amaral guilty of perjury
Who knows if there was a link between the two cases, what is certain is the Cipriano case was very shoddily investigated and the evidence was hardly conclusive, and when Leonor had the temerity to complain about her treatment her sentence was increased I believe. Utterly bizarre, the way Portuguese justice works IMO. The only person who served time for the torture was the torture victim herself, for apparently lying about it despite the courts agreeing she was tortured. This makes sense how, exactly?
It makes as much sense to me as ignoring the fact that a distance of only seven miles separated the villages of Luz and Figuera and only three years separated the disappearance of a little girl from both.
If the disappearances had been linked though, it would have raised questions about the safety of Joanna's mother's conviction for her murder by the same team who investigated both disappearances; using similar tactics in both cases to arrive at conclusions which led to Madeleine's mother being made arguida in Madeleine's case.
Taken in conjunction with the serious assaults perpetrated against children in that area at that time and apparently ignored until Scotland Yard looked at them again on reviewing Madeleine's case ... I think the people who have bombarded the internet for years asking questions have been asking entirely the wrong ones.
There certainly are some similarities between the cases of Maddie & Joana.Yes, the McCanns were just not bothered at all, even going so far as to tell their mates “nah, no need to go to reception to call the police, she’s bound to be back in a day or two”. Then they went back to their table and ordered dessert.
When Joana went missing, neither her mother or uncle bothered to pick up their phones & tell the police.
When Maddie went missing, neither her mother or father bothered to pick up their phones & tell the police.
Probably Amaral's fault somehow.
Yes, the McCanns were just not bothered at all, even going so far as to tell their mates “nah, no need to go to reception to call the police, she’s bound to be back in a day or two”. Then they went back to their table and ordered dessert.
It's was Fiona who suggested to Matt he should go to reception & call the police. Kate was busy punching & kicking walls & deleting her call history, Gerry was busy elsewhere.Yeah, anything to distract the rest of the group from calling the police, obviously. That’s why people stage abductions - cos they know the police won’t be called.
I am probably more incensed by what was done to Leonor Cipriano than I am by what was done to Kate McCann. The British Ambassador didn't turn up toute de bloody suite because he had nothing better to do. And after the other debacle of Michael Cooke then The British Embassy weren't having that one again.
They knew that there was a distinct possibility that Kate McCann could be beaten into a confession. This is what The PJ did in those days, especially when Goncalo Amaral was involved, as he was instrumental in the beating of Leonor Cipriano.
It would seem that Amaral was unaware of what went on while Leonor Cipriano was being beaten. So Amaral was no where near The Police Station for two days while this was going on? Amaral was somewhere else, was he? And he had nothing to do with PJ Officers being brought down from Lisbon?
This is such utter rubbish that it leaves me almost speechless, but only almost.
There certainly are some similarities between the cases of Maddie & Joana.
When Joana went missing, neither her mother or uncle bothered to pick up their phones & tell the police.
When Maddie went missing, neither her mother or father bothered to pick up their phones & tell the police.
Probably Amaral's fault somehow.
Yes I do.
Why was Leonor beaten black and blue over several hours? And please don't tell me it was because The PJ wanted to know what she had done with the body IF she had already confessed.
And the non existent Forensics were a joke.
No one has so far effectively proved that the child arrived back home from the shop in the first place.
I think both of them may well be innocent. No forensic evidence against either.... In fact no real evidence against either at the trial.... Apart from confessions... In the csde of Leonora... According to the Portuguese court beaten out if her by the PJ and amaral found guilty of trying to cover it up which makes him complicit. I haven't seen any confession of banging Joannas head off the door frame.
Leonoras problem was having been found guilty she had no chance if parole if she protested innocence.
Looking at the case in detail
No real evidence... No forensics... PJ guilty of torture... Amaral guilty of perjury
What was the motive given at trial?
I've read the siblings were having an incestuous relationship and JC caught them in a compromising position? Is there any truth in this?
It can't be certain what sparked the violence but João Cipriano (Leonor's brother) had a history of violence and criminal conduct, he had only recently been released on parole in respect of an earlier attempted murder. It can only be surmised what drink and drug fuelled event took place. Whether Joana returned and found them in a compromising position is merely a theory, only Leonor and João know what actually occurred and they won't say.
It all sounds very grisly along with the involvement of pigs if true. 8(8-))
Just for the record, Leonor Cipriano has a long record of child abandonment while she went off with different men. It was left to family and neighbours to rear her many children.I'm quietly confident that the right people were convicted.
You could say that if you ignore the facts.
1. A neighbour sitting at her window SAW the girl return home.
2. Her shoes were in the house.
3. The tins of milk which she was sent to the shop for were in the house.
4. The forensics revealed deep cleaning but blood still remained on the door frame and on shoes.
I'm quietly confident that the right people were convicted.
I wonder why GA didn't call for Grimes and the dogs?
I can see the case of Joana Cipriano has a separate board and there is probably an existing thread on this board re the above but I'm unable to find it so I've started a new one, which might not meet everyone's approval but I've long since come to the conclusion that you can't please everyone!
'The cases are connected' narrative is a supporter invention meant to give support to the abduction from the bedroom theory but in reality there is no evidence which indicates any intruder in 5a or that someone climbed in the bedroom window. IMO Joana Cipriano was murdered by her uncle in a moment of madness while Maddie McCann walked out of her apartment on her own and met with an accident in the street outside before being carried away.
It was the British police who brought Grime and his two dogs into the investigation.
Oh yes of course. I wonder what might have happened had they been brought in for this case?
The dogs wouldn't have found a body, they would have alerted to blood in certain places & PJ would have misinterpreted the forensic results.(Joana's DNA was not found in any of the forensic samples harvested)
All IMO.
The cadaver odour dog might have alerted or even taken investigators to a burial site.Yeh, but she's still missing remember and the two convicted are both innocent, so those stupid dogs would be of no use.
The cadaver odour dog might have alerted or even taken investigators to a burial site.
I think you need to revisit the case files instead of posting untruths. When Leonor Cipriano originally confessed she did so to cover up for her brother. She did so freely and without any coercion. The forensic and circumstantial evidence was more than sufficient to convict both of them. The additional sentence handed down to Leonor Cipriano for lying under oath (perjury) was also warranted.Please tell us about the forensic evidence that proves Joana was killed by her Uncle and mother.
There can be little doubt that the Portuguese police interrogated Leonor Cipriano and her brother using questionable methods. It is also clear that police officers under the control of Gonçalo Amaral tortured Leonor Cipriano in a desperate attempt to save Joana had she still been alive. Amaral paid a very heavy price for those events.
I'm quietly confident that the right people were convicted.As long as you’re happy that’s the main thing.
As long as you’re happy that’s the main thing.You're right. You have to be happy in life.
You're right. You have to be happy in life.
I find it intriguing the delineation in this associated case - 'supporters' call 'torture' and 'miscarriage of justice' and 'sceptics' call 'fair kop' and 'means to an end' (to a degree). Funny that, given the bearing on the reputation of GA.
I like to try to put myself in the other non-gender specific, carbon based unit's shoes (or moccasins) - this was a heinous crime (allegedly), with two people known to the local police as ne'er do wells at best, they have the uncle in one room singing like Barry Manilow on a Cruise Ship - confessing to 'just killing her', and in the next room we have the specimen of a 'mother' telling whichever tale her lawyer thinks might get her the least time.
I'm gonna be straight, I don't think much coercion was required at any point. I think there's every chance the coppers gave both of them a hiding, and I'd have done exactly the same - does that make me a bad person? Yes. Tough shit.
I think you need to revisit the case files instead of posting untruths. When Leonor Cipriano originally confessed she did so to cover up for her brother. She did so freely and without any coercion. The forensic and circumstantial evidence was more than sufficient to convict both of them. The additional sentence handed down to Leonor Cipriano for lying under oath (perjury) was also warranted.
There can be little doubt that the Portuguese police interrogated Leonor Cipriano and her brother using questionable methods. It is also clear that police officers under the control of Gonçalo Amaral tortured Leonor Cipriano in a desperate attempt to save Joana had she still been alive. Amaral paid a very heavy price for those events.
It can't be certain what sparked the violence but João Cipriano (Leonor's brother) had a history of violence and criminal conduct, he had only recently been released on parole in respect of an earlier attempted murder. It can only be surmised what drink and drug fuelled event took place. Whether Joana returned and found them in a compromising position is merely a theory, only Leonor and João know what actually occurred and they won't say.
What little evidence there is appears to point to the child being knocked about, probably by her uncle, it doesn't take much to kill a child if her head is hit off a door frame. Leonor took the blame initially and claimed that her brother's only involvement was in hiding his niece's body. She later changed this to save her own skin and putting the blame on her brother.
You're right. You have to be happy in life.
I find it intriguing the delineation in this associated case - 'supporters' call 'torture' and 'miscarriage of justice' and 'sceptics' call 'fair kop' and 'means to an end' (to a degree). Funny that, given the bearing on the reputation of GA.
I like to try to put myself in the other non-gender specific, carbon based unit's shoes (or moccasins) - this was a heinous crime (allegedly), with two people known to the local police as ne'er do wells at best, they have the uncle in one room singing like Barry Manilow on a Cruise Ship - confessing to 'just killing her', and in the next room we have the specimen of a 'mother' telling whichever tale her lawyer thinks might get her the least time.
I'm gonna be straight, I don't think much coercion was required at any point. I think there's every chance the coppers gave both of them a hiding, and I'd have done exactly the same - does that make me a bad person? Yes. Tough shit.
Indeed!
I share that sentiment as well as the descisions made by Investigator Superintendent Steve Fulcher who got two childrens bodies back to their parents for burial. by 'forgetting' to give the killer his 'rights' that must have been torture of sorts for that poor killer.
Investigator Superintendent Steve Fulcher lost his career, small price to pay I should imagine, can't just go around torturing poor defenceless citizens and denying them presumption of innocence.
There is a TV series about this: A Confession TV Series (2019) | Cast, Episodes | And Everything You Need to Know Biography, Crime, Drama, UK
If you have proof the ciprianos are killers you should share it... But you dont
I never claimed they were killers, that was due process within a legal setting- nowt to do wi me sir.
However, if you have proof of their innocence then I am happy to read all about it.
Theres no proof either way...
I have no doubt in my mind she was a bad mother and little Joanna suffered horrible abuse.
You're right. You have to be happy in life.It makes you a supporter of police brutality, and other shonky methods of trying to get a conviction due to a complete lack of any forensic evidence, which certainly is a hard position to defend IMO.
I find it intriguing the delineation in this associated case - 'supporters' call 'torture' and 'miscarriage of justice' and 'sceptics' call 'fair kop' and 'means to an end' (to a degree). Funny that, given the bearing on the reputation of GA.
I like to try to put myself in the other non-gender specific, carbon based unit's shoes (or moccasins) - this was a heinous crime (allegedly), with two people known to the local police as ne'er do wells at best, they have the uncle in one room singing like Barry Manilow on a Cruise Ship - confessing to 'just killing her', and in the next room we have the specimen of a 'mother' telling whichever tale her lawyer thinks might get her the least time.
I'm gonna be straight, I don't think much coercion was required at any point. I think there's every chance the coppers gave both of them a hiding, and I'd have done exactly the same - does that make me a bad person? Yes. Tough shit.
Yes. There is a connection.
Both were female, both have never been found, Amaral was the coordinator in both cases, officers from the DCCB were involved in both investigations.Both disappeared within a few miles of each other, in a low population density area, in suspcious circs, within three years of each other, and disappeared completely without trace. What are the chances, eh?
Both children lacked parental concern for their welfare, to an astonishing degree!
I've just removed a number of posts.
The sheer level of childishness here is quite unbelievable. Sadly it seems some contributors have nothing more to offer other than to engage in silly spats with a few emoticons thrown in for effect. I've also noticed that 1 or 2 seem to spend a lot of time hovering, often not contributing much by way of on-topic posts, and then when a spat starts up they're straight in adding fuel to the fire. It's not going unnoticed. Keep it up and expect a temporary ban with the potential for a permanent.