Is There Any Connection Between The Disappearance of Joana Cipriano and MM?

[Holly Goodhead]

I wonder why GA didn't call for Grimes and the dogs?

[Angelo222]

I wonder why GA didn't call for Grimes and the dogs?

It was the British police who brought Grime and his two dogs into the investigation.

[Angelo222]

I can see the case of Joana Cipriano has a separate board and there is probably an existing thread on this board re the above but I'm unable to find it so I've started a new one, which might not meet everyone's approval but I've long since come to the conclusion that you can't please everyone!

'The cases are connected' narrative is a supporter invention meant to give support to the abduction from the bedroom theory but in reality there is no evidence which indicates any intruder in 5a or that someone climbed in the bedroom window. IMO Joana Cipriano was murdered by her uncle in a moment of madness while Maddie McCann walked out of her apartment on her own and met with an accident in the street outside before being carried away.

[Holly Goodhead]

'The cases are connected' narrative is a supporter invention meant to give support to the abduction from the bedroom theory but in reality there is no evidence which indicates any intruder in 5a or that someone climbed in the bedroom window. IMO Joana Cipriano was murdered by her uncle in a moment of madness while Maddie McCann walked out of her apartment on her own and met with an accident in the street outside before being carried away.

Do you believe the unidentified fingerprint on the side of the patio door at 5A originated from GNR officer Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa?

[Holly Goodhead]

It was the British police who brought Grime and his two dogs into the investigation.

Oh yes of course.  I wonder what might have happened had they been brought in for this case?

[misty]

Oh yes of course.  I wonder what might have happened had they been brought in for this case?

The dogs wouldn't have found a body, they would have alerted to blood in certain places & PJ would have misinterpreted the forensic results.(Joana's DNA was not found in any of the forensic samples harvested)
All IMO.

[Holly Goodhead]

The dogs wouldn't have found a body, they would have alerted to blood in certain places & PJ would have misinterpreted the forensic results.(Joana's DNA was not found in any of the forensic samples harvested)
All IMO.

The cadaver odour dog might have alerted or even taken investigators to a burial site.

[The General]

The cadaver odour dog might have alerted or even taken investigators to a burial site.

Yeh, but she's still missing remember and the two convicted are both innocent, so those stupid dogs would be of no use.

[misty]

The cadaver odour dog might have alerted or even taken investigators to a burial site.

A dog like Eddie may well have led them to the pig pen where PJ claimed Joana had been disposed of.....

[Vertigo Swirl]

I think you need to revisit the case files instead of posting untruths. When Leonor Cipriano originally confessed she did so to cover up for her brother. She did so freely and without any coercion.  The forensic and circumstantial evidence was more than sufficient to convict both of them. The additional sentence handed down to Leonor Cipriano for lying under oath (perjury) was also warranted.

There can be little doubt that the Portuguese police interrogated Leonor Cipriano and her brother using questionable methods. It is also clear that police officers under the control of Gonçalo Amaral tortured Leonor Cipriano in a desperate attempt to save Joana had she still been alive. Amaral paid a very heavy price for those events.

Please tell us about the forensic evidence that proves Joana was killed by her Uncle and mother.

[Vertigo Swirl]

I'm quietly confident that the right people were convicted.

As long as you’re happy that’s the main thing.

[The General]

As long as you’re happy that’s the main thing.

You're right. You have to be happy in life.
I find it intriguing the delineation in this associated case - 'supporters' call 'torture' and 'miscarriage of justice' and 'sceptics' call 'fair kop' and 'means to an end' (to a degree). Funny that, given the bearing on the reputation of GA.

I like to try to put myself in the other non-gender specific, carbon based unit's shoes (or moccasins)  - this was a heinous crime (allegedly), with two people known to the local police as ne'er do wells at best, they have the uncle in one room singing like Barry Manilow on a Cruise Ship - confessing to 'just killing her', and in the next room we have the specimen of a 'mother' telling whichever tale her lawyer thinks might get her the least time.
I'm gonna be straight, I don't think much coercion was required at any point. I think there's every chance the coppers gave both of them a hiding, and I'd have done exactly the same - does that make me a bad person? Yes. Tough shit.

[Mr Gray]

You're right. You have to be happy in life.
I find it intriguing the delineation in this associated case - 'supporters' call 'torture' and 'miscarriage of justice' and 'sceptics' call 'fair kop' and 'means to an end' (to a degree). Funny that, given the bearing on the reputation of GA.

I like to try to put myself in the other non-gender specific, carbon based unit's shoes (or moccasins)  - this was a heinous crime (allegedly), with two people known to the local police as ne'er do wells at best, they have the uncle in one room singing like Barry Manilow on a Cruise Ship - confessing to 'just killing her', and in the next room we have the specimen of a 'mother' telling whichever tale her lawyer thinks might get her the least time.
I'm gonna be straight, I don't think much coercion was required at any point. I think there's every chance the coppers gave both of them a hiding, and I'd have done exactly the same - does that make me a bad person? Yes. Tough shit.

You can be a straight as you like... It's of no importance... I think you have little knowledge of he case so what does it matter

I can't be bothered to correct all the errors in your post but the word torture wasn't coined by sceptics but by amnesty international

[Mr Gray]

I think you need to revisit the case files instead of posting untruths. When Leonor Cipriano originally confessed she did so to cover up for her brother. She did so freely and without any coercion.  The forensic and circumstantial evidence was more than sufficient to convict both of them. The additional sentence handed down to Leonor Cipriano for lying under oath (perjury) was also warranted.

There can be little doubt that the Portuguese police interrogated Leonor Cipriano and her brother using questionable methods. It is also clear that police officers under the control of Gonçalo Amaral tortured Leonor Cipriano in a desperate attempt to save Joana had she still been alive. Amaral paid a very heavy price for those events.

there is no real confirmation that leonora confessed earlier without coercian...only a claim by the lawyer for the PJ at the torture trial...there was no forensic evidence. Blood found which the pj claimed belonged to joanna was never dna tested...I dont thnk it was even confirmed as being human.

[Mr Gray]

It can't be certain what sparked the violence but João Cipriano (Leonor's brother) had a history of violence and criminal conduct, he had only recently been released on parole in respect of an earlier attempted murder.  It can only be surmised what drink and drug fuelled event took place. Whether Joana returned and found them in a compromising position is merely a theory, only Leonor and João know what actually occurred and they won't say.

What little evidence there is appears to point to the child being knocked about, probably by her uncle, it doesn't take much to kill a child if her head is hit off a door frame. Leonor took the blame initially and claimed that her brother's only involvement was in hiding his niece's body. She later changed this to save her own skin and putting the blame on her brother.     

there is an interview with amaral on this forum where the reporter....who probably knows far more about this case than we do...says most portuguese think Leonora is innocent



MST : Let me ask you a question, do you think that in this country many people believes that Leonor Cipriano killed her daughter ?
GA : I think so.
MST : Very few people, Gonçalo Amaral, very few people.
GA : You think?
MST : How can a woman without any instruction, without any proof, who was beaten hard by the PJ...
GA : It wasn't proved that she was beaten, you are going to...
MST : How could she manage to be so clever that she kills her daughter, hides the body and the PJ couldn't get a single trace?
GA : Not a single residue