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Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 12:30:31 PM

Title: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 12:30:31 PM
What is attachment?

It is a psychological, evolutionary and ethological theory concerning relationships between humans. The most important tenet is that young children need to develop a relationship with at least one primary caregiver for normal social and emotional development. The theory was formulated by psychiatrist and psychoanalyst John Bowlby.

Within attachment theory, infant behaviour associated with attachment is primarily the seeking of proximity to an attachment figure in stressful situations. Infants become attached to adults who are sensitive and responsive in social interactions with them, and who remain as consistent caregivers for some months during the period from about six months to two years of age. During the latter part of this period, children begin to use attachment figures (familiar people) as a secure base to explore from and return to. Parental responses lead to the development of patterns of attachment; these, in turn, lead to internal working models which will guide the individual's feelings, thoughts and expectations in later relations.  Separation anxiety or grief following the loss of an attachment figure is considered to be a normal and adaptive response for an attached infant. These behaviours may have evolved because they increase the probability of survival of the child.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Common sense on May 09, 2020, 12:34:51 PM
Yes. The attachment of the silencer meant that she didn't kill herself.

I'll get my coat.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 09, 2020, 12:38:17 PM
What is attachment?

It is a psychological, evolutionary and ethological theory concerning relationships between humans. The most important tenet is that young children need to develop a relationship with at least one primary caregiver for normal social and emotional development. The theory was formulated by psychiatrist and psychoanalyst John Bowlby.

Within attachment theory, infant behaviour associated with attachment is primarily the seeking of proximity to an attachment figure in stressful situations. Infants become attached to adults who are sensitive and responsive in social interactions with them, and who remain as consistent caregivers for some months during the period from about six months to two years of age. During the latter part of this period, children begin to use attachment figures (familiar people) as a secure base to explore from and return to. Parental responses lead to the development of patterns of attachment; these, in turn, lead to internal working models which will guide the individual's feelings, thoughts and expectations in later relations.  Separation anxiety or grief following the loss of an attachment figure is considered to be a normal and adaptive response for an attached infant. These behaviours may have evolved because they increase the probability of survival of the child.
Is committing mass murder one of the things associated with this disorder?
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 12:44:23 PM
It is known SC experienced a number of primary caregivers during the first 2/3 years of her life:

Birth - 2 weeks - birth mother

2 weeks - 3 months - children's home

3 months - 2 years - June who, according to Dr Ferguson, became severely depressed due to her decision to adopt which required in-patient psychiatric care and electroconvulsive treatment.

2 years - until June returned - uknown

June"s return - thereafter - Nanny

Not only did SC experience a number of primary caregivers during the first 2 years of her life but the quality of care provided by June was unlikely to have met the "Good enough mother" criteria postulated by Donald Winnicott due to her severe depression brought on by her decision to adopt.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 12:46:36 PM
Yes. The attachment of the silencer meant that she didn't kill herself.

I'll get my coat.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11431.msg585683#msg585683
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 12:52:15 PM
Is committing mass murder one of the things associated with this disorder?

A propensity towards violence and suicide. 

It is thought to be at the root of many societal ills hence governments around the world spend far more on early years intervention than they once did.

You have big names involved such as Kate Middleton:

https://indianexpress.com/article/parenting/family/kate-middleton-attachment-parenting-6013516/
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 01:00:07 PM
CC claimed in his book one of SC's earliest memories was of being left alone in a pram screaming for hours on end.  If June was severely depressed due to her decision to adopt was she able to meet SC's basic needs? 

Dr Tronick's 'Still Face Experiment'

https://youtu.be/apzXGEbZht0
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 09, 2020, 01:02:05 PM
A propensity towards violence and suicide. 

It is thought to be at the root of many societal ills hence governments around the world spend far more on early years intervention than they once did.

You have big names involved such as Kate Middleton:

https://indianexpress.com/article/parenting/family/kate-middleton-attachment-parenting-6013516/
Golly!  I hope Will and the kids are safe.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 01:14:56 PM
Dr Dan Siegal:

Disorganised attachment and violence:

https://youtu.be/iGDqJYEi_Ks
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 01:18:24 PM
Golly!  I hope Will and the kids are safe.

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2008/09/andrea-leadsom.html
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 01:26:05 PM
Dr Allan Schore on early attachment and the roots of suicide:

https://youtu.be/qQ236szRMD4
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 01:30:16 PM
Dr Allan Schore on how an infant's cognitive structure is effected by a mother's depression:

https://youtu.be/iTZQhCMy3vU
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Caroline on May 09, 2020, 01:32:56 PM
CC claimed in his book one of SC's earliest memories was of being left alone in a pram screaming for hours on end.  If June was severely depressed due to her decision to adopt was she able to meet SC's basic needs? 

Dr Tronick's 'Still Face Experiment'

https://youtu.be/apzXGEbZht0

One of mine is being in my cot doing the same - I didn't kill anyone ........... yet! Bwah ha, ha, ha, ha!!
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 01:44:13 PM
From The Centre On The Developing Child - Harvard University:

Maternal depression can undermine the development of young children:
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Caroline on May 09, 2020, 01:46:50 PM
From The Centre On The Developing Child - Harvard University:

Maternal depression can undermine the development of young children:

This also applies to Jeremy.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 01:50:09 PM
Prof Lavinia Barone:

Study found a correlation between mothers who commit filicide and those with attachment disorders:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285034528_Trauma_and_filicide_mothers_An_attachment_study
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Caroline on May 09, 2020, 01:51:25 PM
Prof Lavinia Barone:

Study found a correlation between mothers who commit filicide and those with attachment disorders:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285034528_Trauma_and_filicide_mothers_An_attachment_study

There's a link to psychopathy too - posted the link for you in another thread!
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 01:52:10 PM
This also applies to Jeremy.

Can you point me to where in Dr Ferguson's wit stats he refers to June being mentally unwell during JB's early years?
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Caroline on May 09, 2020, 01:55:16 PM
Can you point me to where in Dr Ferguson's wit stats he refers to June being mentally unwell during JB's early years?

Sorry? You have to be mentally unwell to have a distant relationship with your child? Where in AT does it state that?
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 02:03:19 PM
Sorry? You have to be mentally unwell to have a distant relationship with your child? Where in AT does it state that?

We're talking about the Bamber family.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Caroline on May 09, 2020, 02:29:45 PM
We're talking about the Bamber family.

So was I unless you think Jeremy wasn't in the Bamber family? For attachment theory to have influence both parents deny the child closeness and Sheila was very close to her father. I am not making any assumptions about June, as I didn't know her but she didn't spend the entire formative years of Sheila's life in hospital.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 02:51:11 PM
So was I unless you think Jeremy wasn't in the Bamber family? For attachment theory to have influence both parents deny the child closeness and Sheila was very close to her father. I am not making any assumptions about June, as I didn't know her but she didn't spend the entire formative years of Sheila's life in hospital.

Of course JB wasn't in the Bamber family when June suffered severe depressions in 1959 which required in-patient psychiatric care and electroconvulsive treatment due to her decision to adopt.  JB had not even been conceived.  He was born in January 1961 by which time, according to Dr Ferguson, June had made a full recovery.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 09, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
Apparently there is no evidence whatsoever that Jb is a psychopath.  By the same token we can only conclude that there is no evidence whatsoever that Sheila suffered attachment disorder.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 03:36:17 PM
Apparently there is no evidence whatsoever that Jb is a psychopath.  By the same token we can only conclude that there is no evidence whatsoever that Sheila suffered attachment disorder.

How can there be evidence of something that hasn't been considered?

The fact it hasn't been considered doesn't mean it's not going to be considered at a forthcoming appeal along with many other factors.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Nicholas on May 09, 2020, 03:38:16 PM
How can there be evidence of something that hasn't been considered?

The fact it hasn't been considered doesn't mean it's not going to be considered at a forthcoming appeal along with many other factors.

There won’t be anymore appeals for Bamber Holly

Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 03:44:27 PM
There won’t be anymore appeals for Bamber Holly

Oh OK then. 
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 09, 2020, 04:23:50 PM
How can there be evidence of something that hasn't been considered?

The fact it hasn't been considered doesn't mean it's not going to be considered at a forthcoming appeal along with many other factors.
How is Sheila going to be assessed for a disorder when she has been dead for 35 years?
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 04:46:38 PM
How is Sheila going to be assessed for a disorder when she has been dead for 35 years?

It's not necessary for the defence to assess SC to put forward a theory about an attachment disorder brought on by June's mental illness.

Even if SC was alive and tests showed her adult attachment style showed a disorganised attachment or helpless and hostile attachment style it wouldn't necessarily mean she was responsible.  It is just one of many aspects that points away from JB towards SC.  Of course the prosecution will have access to JB's entire prison file. 
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 09, 2020, 04:49:05 PM
It's not necessary for the defence to assess SC to put forward a theory about an attachment disorder brought on by June's mental illness.

Even if SC was alive and tests showed her adult attachment style showed a disorganised attachment or helpless and hostile attachment style it wouldn't necessarily mean she was responsible.  It is just one of many aspects that points away from JB towards SC.  Of course the prosecution will have access to JB's entire prison file.
You will never be able to prove she suffered from this disorder and and as such it can only be a possibility, or a suggestion - do courts grant appeals of mass murderers on the basis of such vagaries? What if a psychiatrist is found to assess JB as a psychopath without meeting him, would that then shift the balance back to his being guilty?
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 05:02:51 PM
You will never be able to prove she suffered from this disorder and and as such it can only be a possibility, or a suggestion - do courts grant appeals of mass murderers on the basis of such vagaries? What if a psychiatrist is found to assess JB as a psychopath without meeting him, would that then shift the balance back to his being guilty?

JB's conviction will never be quashed unless the blood/silencer is undermined in a very compelling unequivocal way.  This will then allow JB to add numerous other points which as a stand alone or even collectively would not be enough for a referral to CoA. One such point will be that SC's early start in life ie numerous caregivers and June's severe depression brought on by her decision to adopt put SC at risk of suffering an attachment disorder with a propensity towards filicide, suicide and violence as per all the info I've uploaded.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 09, 2020, 05:10:56 PM
JB's conviction will never be quashed unless the blood/silencer is undermined in a very compelling unequivocal way.  This will then allow JB to add numerous other points which as a stand alone or even collectively would not be enough for a referral to CoA. One such point will be that SC's early start in life ie numerous caregivers and June's severe depression brought on by her decision to adopt put SC at risk of suffering an attachment disorder with a propensity towards filicide, suicide and violence as per all the info I've uploaded.
If the blood/silencer evidence is undermined in a very compelling unequivocal way there will be no need to over-egg the pudding with theories about what disorder Sheila may or may not have been suffering from, something which can never be proved.

Which one was Sheila in your view btw, and supply the evidence?

Children who have attachment issues can develop two possible types of disorders: Reactive Attachment Disorder and Disinhibited Social Engagement Disorder.

Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD)

Children with RAD are less likely to interact with other people because of negative experiences with adults in their early years. They have difficulty calming down when stressed and do not look for comfort from their caregivers when they are upset. These children may seem to have little to no emotions when interacting with others. They may appear unhappy, irritable, sad, or scared while having normal activities with their caretaker. The diagnosis of RAD is made if symptoms become chronic.

Disinhibited Social Engagement Disorder (DSED)

Children with DSED do not appear fearful when meeting someone for the first time. They may be overly friendly, walk up to strangers to talk or even hug them. Younger children may allow strangers to pick them up, feed them, or give them toys to play with. When these children are put in a stranger situation, they do not check with their parents or caregivers, and will often go with someone they do not know.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 05:51:08 PM
If the blood/silencer evidence is undermined in a very compelling unequivocal way there will be no need to over-egg the pudding with theories about what disorder Sheila may or may not have been suffering from, something which can never be proved.

Which one was Sheila in your view btw, and supply the evidence?

Children who have attachment issues can develop two possible types of disorders: Reactive Attachment Disorder and Disinhibited Social Engagement Disorder.

Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD)

Children with RAD are less likely to interact with other people because of negative experiences with adults in their early years. They have difficulty calming down when stressed and do not look for comfort from their caregivers when they are upset. These children may seem to have little to no emotions when interacting with others. They may appear unhappy, irritable, sad, or scared while having normal activities with their caretaker. The diagnosis of RAD is made if symptoms become chronic.

Disinhibited Social Engagement Disorder (DSED)

Children with DSED do not appear fearful when meeting someone for the first time. They may be overly friendly, walk up to strangers to talk or even hug them. Younger children may allow strangers to pick them up, feed them, or give them toys to play with. When these children are put in a stranger situation, they do not check with their parents or caregivers, and will often go with someone they do not know.

It's not a case of over egging the pudding but demolishing the prosecution case. 

I believe there are 4 attachment stykes:

Secure - autonomous
Avoidant - dismissing
Anxious - preoccupied; and
Disorganised - unresolved

I believe SC suffered the last for the reasons I've given.

https://www.evergreenpsychotherapycenter.com/styles-adult-attachment/

https://www.evergreenpsychotherapycenter.com/about/
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 09, 2020, 05:52:31 PM
If anyone is interested they can take an online test to check out their own adult attachment style.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 09, 2020, 05:58:21 PM
That being the case is there any evidence of Sheila exhibiting any of these attributes as a parent?

Our Maltreatment Pathway Model (see diagram) and the Assessment of Disorganised Attachment and Maltreatment (Adam) Project is already helping professionals feel more confident when assessing why it is that some parents abuse their children. The model identifies three key predictors of maltreatment signalled by parental behaviour, alongside one child-related indicator of maltreatment, namely disorganised attachment.


The three key predictors of maltreatment from the parents’ behaviour are:

● Unresolved loss and trauma (see Madigan et al, 2006). This refers to significantly repressed or denied interpersonal losses which re-emerge under conditions reminding a parent of their own vulnerability. Caring for infants and toddlers is one such condition. Unresolved loss and trauma may be accompanied by dissociative experiences such as “blanking out”; often a person will also experience symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder.

● Disconnected and extremely insensitive parenting (Out et al, 2009). A consequence of unresolved loss and trauma is that parenting includes sudden changes in behaviour which are neither accompanied by explanatory gestures or vocalisations, nor by signs of affection or playfulness. Such disconnected parenting also includes frightened or frightening behaviour and disruptive emotional communication. Extremely insensitive parenting denotes caregiving that is excessively withdrawn and neglectful or, conversely, over-intrusive and aggressive, typically involving rough handling and hostile language (Lyons-Ruth and Jacobvitz, 2008).

● Low parental mentalisation and reflective function (see Allen et al, 2008; Fonagy and Target, 2005). This is a significantly reduced ability to appreciate that others have different intentions and feelings from one’s own. An example of low reflective function is the mother who didn’t see why, on a cold morning, she needed to put her one-year old son’s shoes and socks on because “my feet are like toast”. Parents with low reflective function often speak about their babies ­”hating them”. Such misattributions are found among parents who maltreat their children (Allen et al, 2008; Crittenden, 2008; Slade, 2008).
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on May 09, 2020, 05:59:18 PM
If anyone is interested they can take an online test to check out their own adult attachment style.
I can already predict which disorder I have. Dismissive.  Where’s the link?
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on May 09, 2020, 10:08:05 PM
It is known SC experienced a number of primary caregivers during the first 2/3 years of her life:

Birth - 2 weeks - birth mother

2 weeks - 3 months - children's home

3 months - 2 years - June who, according to Dr Ferguson, became severely depressed due to her decision to adopt which required in-patient psychiatric care and electroconvulsive treatment.

2 years - until June returned - uknown

June"s return - thereafter - Nanny

Not only did SC experience a number of primary caregivers during the first 2 years of her life but the quality of care provided by June was unlikely to have met the "Good enough mother" criteria postulated by Donald Winnicott due to her severe depression brought on by her decision to adopt.

How do you know June’s depression was brought on by her decision to adopt?

People all over the world can suffer clinical depression , and it’s usually to do with brain chemistry.

You’re making assumptions.

Please stick to FACTS and TRUTHS, rather than assumptions...
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on May 09, 2020, 10:18:34 PM
It is known SC experienced a number of primary caregivers during the first 2/3 years of her life:

Birth - 2 weeks - birth mother

2 weeks - 3 months - children's home

3 months - 2 years - June who, according to Dr Ferguson, became severely depressed due to her decision to adopt which required in-patient psychiatric care and electroconvulsive treatment.

2 years - until June returned - uknown

June"s return - thereafter - Nanny

Not only did SC experience a number of primary caregivers during the first 2 years of her life but the quality of care provided by June was unlikely to have met the "Good enough mother" criteria postulated by Donald Winnicott due to her severe depression brought on by her decision to adopt.


So how about fathers who tragically lose their wives when they’re giving birth, or sometimes die within weeks ?

There’s many men who’ve been left in that heartbreaking situation, and their children don’t grow up to become Schizophrenics or Psychopaths....
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: APRIL on May 10, 2020, 08:22:58 AM
How do you know June’s depression was brought on by her decision to adopt?

People all over the world can suffer clinical depression , and it’s usually to do with brain chemistry.

You’re making assumptions.

Please stick to FACTS and TRUTHS, rather than assumptions...


Spy, those are not Holly's words. They're the words used by Dr Ferguson. They're words I've questioned, and whilst I hasten to add I'm neither psychiatrist nor psychologist, I've done enough work with depressed people to question that June suffered clinical depression. I think it was more about life circumstances. Who of us wouldn't be depressed, when desperate to conceive, month after month, we failed? Who of us wouldn't have visualized the feel of our own baby in our arms. There would come a grieving process, a time to adjust, followed by relief at then knowledge that a baby would be possible, albeit, by adoption, followed by excitement. Then comes the day 'our' baby is placed in our arms. A VITALLY important moment. We are, quite naturally, nervous. All manner of questions going through our minds. What happens next may set the tone of our relationship, and here, I have to become personal. I'd been placed, sleeping, into my new mother's arms. At 11 weeks, I'd have been aware that they were not my 'real' mother's. I opened my eyes, and to quote my adoptive mother "You dropped your lip" It may have been that moment in which our future relationship was sealed. She never bonded with me. All my life she maintained that I'd never liked her. Adoptive motherhood can be fragile. If June was experiencing something similar, her visions of perfect motherhood would have gone out the window. A second depression was inevitable NOT, though, because "of her decision to adopt".
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: G-Unit on May 10, 2020, 11:06:55 AM

Spy, those are not Holly's words. They're the words used by Dr Ferguson. They're words I've questioned, and whilst I hasten to add I'm neither psychiatrist nor psychologist, I've done enough work with depressed people to question that June suffered clinical depression. I think it was more about life circumstances. Who of us wouldn't be depressed, when desperate to conceive, month after month, we failed? Who of us wouldn't have visualized the feel of our own baby in our arms. There would come a grieving process, a time to adjust, followed by relief at then knowledge that a baby would be possible, albeit, by adoption, followed by excitement. Then comes the day 'our' baby is placed in our arms. A VITALLY important moment. We are, quite naturally, nervous. All manner of questions going through our minds. What happens next may set the tone of our relationship, and here, I have to become personal. I'd been placed, sleeping, into my new mother's arms. At 11 weeks, I'd have been aware that they were not my 'real' mother's. I opened my eyes, and to quote my adoptive mother "You dropped your lip" It may have been that moment in which our future relationship was sealed. She never bonded with me. All my life she maintained that I'd never liked her. Adoptive motherhood can be fragile. If June was experiencing something similar, her visions of perfect motherhood would have gone out the window. A second depression was inevitable NOT, though, because "of her decision to adopt".

That's so sad that a perfectly normal reaction by a baby to a strange face can affect someone so powerfully. I think (and hope) adoptive parents are better prepared these days and understand that there will be a period of adjustment.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: APRIL on May 10, 2020, 11:23:25 AM
That's so sad that a perfectly normal reaction by a baby to a strange face can affect someone so powerfully. I think (and hope) adoptive parents are better prepared these days and understand that there will be a period of adjustment.


From this safe remove and with the benefit of maturity, I CAN see that it was incredibly sad for her. She couldn't have been unique. It MAY have been June's experience.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: puglove on May 10, 2020, 11:34:34 AM

Spy, those are not Holly's words. They're the words used by Dr Ferguson. They're words I've questioned, and whilst I hasten to add I'm neither psychiatrist nor psychologist, I've done enough work with depressed people to question that June suffered clinical depression. I think it was more about life circumstances. Who of us wouldn't be depressed, when desperate to conceive, month after month, we failed? Who of us wouldn't have visualized the feel of our own baby in our arms. There would come a grieving process, a time to adjust, followed by relief at then knowledge that a baby would be possible, albeit, by adoption, followed by excitement. Then comes the day 'our' baby is placed in our arms. A VITALLY important moment. We are, quite naturally, nervous. All manner of questions going through our minds. What happens next may set the tone of our relationship, and here, I have to become personal. I'd been placed, sleeping, into my new mother's arms. At 11 weeks, I'd have been aware that they were not my 'real' mother's. I opened my eyes, and to quote my adoptive mother "You dropped your lip" It may have been that moment in which our future relationship was sealed. She never bonded with me. All my life she maintained that I'd never liked her. Adoptive motherhood can be fragile. If June was experiencing something similar, her visions of perfect motherhood would have gone out the window. A second depression was inevitable NOT, though, because "of her decision to adopt".

Your adoptive mother's heart should have broken for you, not for herself.

Some people should never be parents.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: APRIL on May 10, 2020, 11:44:39 AM
Your adoptive mother's heart should have broken for you, not for herself.

Some people should never be parents.


Thank-you SO much for that, puglove xx

Sadly, I still meet adoptive parents whose relationship with their children is less than happy. They usually talk about what they've done for/given/spent on these children, but their expectations of them are clearly unreasonable for the child. The parent then sees it as rejection of them and their values "after all we've done for them".
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: G-Unit on May 10, 2020, 11:53:23 AM

Thank-you SO much for that, puglove xx

Sadly, I still meet adoptive parents whose relationship with their children is less than happy. They usually talk about what they've done for/given/spent on these children, but their expectations of them are clearly unreasonable for the child. The parent then sees it as rejection of them and their values "after all we've done for them".

Any parent who demands gratitude from their child is likely to be disappointed imo. It's something the child will offer freely if a parent has done a good job.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 10, 2020, 12:31:59 PM

Spy, those are not Holly's words. They're the words used by Dr Ferguson. They're words I've questioned, and whilst I hasten to add I'm neither psychiatrist nor psychologist, I've done enough work with depressed people to question that June suffered clinical depression. I think it was more about life circumstances. Who of us wouldn't be depressed, when desperate to conceive, month after month, we failed? Who of us wouldn't have visualized the feel of our own baby in our arms. There would come a grieving process, a time to adjust, followed by relief at then knowledge that a baby would be possible, albeit, by adoption, followed by excitement. Then comes the day 'our' baby is placed in our arms. A VITALLY important moment. We are, quite naturally, nervous. All manner of questions going through our minds. What happens next may set the tone of our relationship, and here, I have to become personal. I'd been placed, sleeping, into my new mother's arms. At 11 weeks, I'd have been aware that they were not my 'real' mother's. I opened my eyes, and to quote my adoptive mother "You dropped your lip" It may have been that moment in which our future relationship was sealed. She never bonded with me. All my life she maintained that I'd never liked her. Adoptive motherhood can be fragile. If June was experiencing something similar, her visions of perfect motherhood would have gone out the window. A second depression was inevitable NOT, though, because "of her decision to adopt".

Your explanation chimes with Allan Schore's

https://youtu.be/iTZQhCMy3vU

I think when June found herself unable to conceive and found herself adopting she suffered unresolved trauma and grief which chimes with David Brodzinsky's views:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11248.msg575554#msg575554
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Caroline on May 10, 2020, 02:57:29 PM

Spy, those are not Holly's words. They're the words used by Dr Ferguson. They're words I've questioned, and whilst I hasten to add I'm neither psychiatrist nor psychologist, I've done enough work with depressed people to question that June suffered clinical depression. I think it was more about life circumstances. Who of us wouldn't be depressed, when desperate to conceive, month after month, we failed? Who of us wouldn't have visualized the feel of our own baby in our arms. There would come a grieving process, a time to adjust, followed by relief at then knowledge that a baby would be possible, albeit, by adoption, followed by excitement. Then comes the day 'our' baby is placed in our arms. A VITALLY important moment. We are, quite naturally, nervous. All manner of questions going through our minds. What happens next may set the tone of our relationship, and here, I have to become personal. I'd been placed, sleeping, into my new mother's arms. At 11 weeks, I'd have been aware that they were not my 'real' mother's. I opened my eyes, and to quote my adoptive mother "You dropped your lip" It may have been that moment in which our future relationship was sealed. She never bonded with me. All my life she maintained that I'd never liked her. Adoptive motherhood can be fragile. If June was experiencing something similar, her visions of perfect motherhood would have gone out the window. A second depression was inevitable NOT, though, because "of her decision to adopt".

Excellent post April but the same is also true for Jeremy.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: APRIL on May 10, 2020, 06:02:18 PM
Excellent post April but the same is also true for Jeremy.


Certainly, Caroline, but it affected him in a different way and he responded differently. It sounds as if, whilst Sheila may have been frightened, and tried desperately hard to fit in with what was expected of her, Jeremy was angry and plotted a way out as soon as he could. Just my theory!
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Caroline on May 10, 2020, 06:44:35 PM

Certainly, Caroline, but it affected him in a different way and he responded differently. It sounds as if, whilst Sheila may have been frightened, and tried desperately hard to fit in with what was expected of her, Jeremy was angry and plotted a way out as soon as he could. Just my theory!

His resentment really started to build after being told he was adopted and them sent off to boarding school.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: APRIL on May 10, 2020, 07:01:33 PM
His resentment really started to build after being told he was adopted and them sent off to boarding school.


Which possibly suggests that, until that time, June not being as hard on him as on Sheila, everything in his particular garden may have seemed rosy. Until then, he may have felt like a 'Lord of the Manor' in waiting.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: Caroline on May 10, 2020, 09:17:55 PM

Which possibly suggests that, until that time, June not being as hard on him as on Sheila, everything in his particular garden may have seemed rosy. Until then, he may have felt like a 'Lord of the Manor' in waiting.

Sheila never mentioned that she was treated differently than Jeremy. If June found it difficult to she her emotions, then that would apply to Jeremy also.
Title: Re: Dis SC Suffer An Attachment Disorder?
Post by: APRIL on May 10, 2020, 09:27:01 PM
Sheila never mentioned that she was treated differently than Jeremy. If June found it difficult to she her emotions, then that would apply to Jeremy also.

It depends on how needy is the child. We're told, time and again, that Sheila needed to be loved. This MAY have been the result of the feelings of unworthiness she got from June. June's inability to show emotions may never have bothered Jeremy in the way they bothered Sheila.