UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: faithlilly on February 19, 2021, 04:20:27 PM
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This point was raised on another thread and I thought it might be interesting to discuss how, and more interestingly why, this claim has arisen.
To me Brueckner is an abhorrent individual who will always pose a danger to females of any age. I have no empathy for him and if it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he is guilty for Madeleine’s disappearance then I hope he is never again a free man. From the information in the public domain, however, we are a long way from that and pointing that out is not displaying support for Brueckner, it is simply true.
A miscarriage of justice means justice for no one, least of all Madeleine...and surely no matter what side of the fence we’re on ultimately that’s what we all hope for?
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I don’t know why I’m bothering to reply as you’ll pretend not to read this but here goes again...
Check out Spam's posts and then check out all those posts by forum members seeking to excuse or minimise or even deny CB's crimes, coupled with those who have empathised with how he must feel to be (in the opinion of some) unfairly accused of Madeleine's disappearance, how he has been denied fair treatment, how he must now fear for his life, and those who are supportive of his rights to legal redress and hope he sues the media and the German authorities. That’s Empathy, right there.
I.M.O.
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This point was raised on another thread and I thought it might be interesting to discuss how, and more interestingly why, this claim has arisen.
That surprised me to how the hell can you show empathy of any kind to CB.
Is it because everyone does not take what Wolt says as gospel that he is the abductor of Maddie.
When He says he has evidence obviously too weak for interviewing him or bringing charges. so not concrete as he suggests.
Is calling him a patsy also mistook for empathy - is there any proof anyone has shown CB any empathy at all for the accusation to be stated in the first place.
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I don’t know why I’m bothering to reply as you’ll pretend not to read this but here goes again...
Check out Spam's posts and then check out all those posts by forum members seeking to excuse or minimise or even deny CB's crimes, coupled with those who have empathised with how he must feel to be (in the opinion of some) unfairly accused of Madeleine's disappearance, how he has been denied fair treatment, how he must now fear for his life, and those who are supportive of his rights to legal redress and hope he sues the media and the German authorities. That’s Empathy, right there.
I.M.O.
coupled with those who have empathised with how he must feel to be (in the opinion of some)
Who are these posters then that it seems is showing empathy for CB or minimising his crimes.
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Amaral called CB a Patsy, didn't he? Does Amaral have empathy for him?
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coupled with those who have empathised with how he must feel to be (in the opinion of some)
Who are these posters then that it seems is showing empathy for CB or minimising his crimes.
It appears that some translate understanding reality for empathy and support.
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Amaral called CB a Patsy, didn't he? Does Amaral have empathy for him?
For believing that he is a patsy...no.
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coupled with those who have empathised with how he must feel to be (in the opinion of some)
Who are these posters then that it seems is showing empathy for CB or minimising his crimes.
You have posted ~ "just hearsay and a phone ping" while you continue to post slurring the McCanns.
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For believing that he is a patsy...no.
Only the person experiencing empathy can express their empathy.
I spent 10 years trying to help a person who was possibly wrongly convicted. Very much like the Brueckner case where his history meant not many had much empathy for him. It wasn't a matter of whether he had done the crime but "he'll do, throw away the key".
Even I had times the thought why am I trying to help this bad person.
But our justice system is supposed to convict the right person for the said crime.
Life imprisonment for a crime you didn't commit? Can you feel some empathy for someone in that predicament?
Bias by the police and the prosecution can lead to stacking the evidence against the suspect/accused.
Where vital evidence that might have helped the accused is not disclosed.
I will say I have some empathy for Brueckner for the fact he is being treated as a guilty person before the trial has been completed.
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Only the person experiencing empathy can express their empathy.
I spent 10 years trying to help a person who was possibly wrongly convicted. Very much like the Brueckner case where his history meant no one had much empathy for him. It wasn't a matter of whether he had done the crime but "he'll do, throw away the key".
Even I had times the thought why am I trying to help this bad person.
But our justice system is supposed to convict the right person for the said crime.
Life imprisonment for a crime you didn't commit? Can you feel some empathy for someone in that predicament?
Bias by the police and the prosecution can lead to stacking the evidence against the suspect/accused.
Where vital evidence that might have helped the accused is not disclosed.
I will say I have some empathy for Brueckner for the fact he is being treated as a guilty person before the trial has been completed.
Excellent post Rob...one of your best. It’s not easy to swim against the tide.
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coupled with those who have empathised with how he must feel to be (in the opinion of some)
Who are these posters then that it seems is showing empathy for CB or minimising his crimes.
Posters on here have described CB’s crimes as “hardly the crime of the century”, questioned whether or not it was children or teenagers close to the age of consent that he’d actually abused, claimed his rape couldn’t have been that serious if he only got seven years, etc etc etc, if you want me to name names it will take me a while to find those posts otherwise you can simply call me a liar and w’ll leave it for others to judge if I’m right or wrong in what I say.
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Amaral called CB a Patsy, didn't he? Does Amaral have empathy for him?
I think so, yes.
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You have posted ~ "just hearsay and a phone ping" while you continue to post slurring the McCanns.
You have posted ~ "just hearsay and a phone ping
Is that suppose to be empathy - just because my opinion is he is not the abductor.- are you saying that is empathy tut tut
What has - what I think about the mccs got to do with this thread surely that is of topic imo
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Only the person experiencing empathy can express their empathy.
I spent 10 years trying to help a person who was possibly wrongly convicted. Very much like the Brueckner case where his history meant not many had much empathy for him. It wasn't a matter of whether he had done the crime but "he'll do, throw away the key".
Even I had times the thought why am I trying to help this bad person.
But our justice system is supposed to convict the right person for the said crime.
Life imprisonment for a crime you didn't commit? Can you feel some empathy for someone in that predicament?
Bias by the police and the prosecution can lead to stacking the evidence against the suspect/accused.
Where vital evidence that might have helped the accused is not disclosed.
I will say I have some empathy for Brueckner for the fact he is being treated as a guilty person before the trial has been completed.
There we go, point proved.
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Excellent post Rob...one of your best. It’s not easy to swim against the tide.
So now you accept that there are people on here with empathy for Bruckner. That didn’t take long did it?
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For believing that he is a patsy...no.
So why did Amaral tell fibs about CB's camper van and his hair?
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I think so, yes.
Two people in the poop together, do you mean?
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Excellent post Rob...one of your best. It’s not easy to swim against the tide.
I was trying to differentiate the different empathies. I want to know what happened to Madeleine, I don't want the McCanns falsely accused either. I know Brueckner is a convicted criminal, but I think my empathy really goes out to those who like me who'll spend years fighting for a fair trial.
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Two people in the poop together, do you mean?
I think Amaral (like some people on here) really, really don’t want any evidence uncovered on CB that would help put him away for the crime of abduction and/or murder., and as such he (and they) can’t help themselves rooting for the loathesome individual, hoping the German investigation fails, hoping his (their) theroies about the McCanns can continue indefinitely without ever being proven wrong. CB is on their team IMO and they want him to succeed in his battle with the Germans and the media. Same thing goes for all the other paedos and reprobates that have been potential suspects in this case, you’ll always find sceptics to empathise with their plight of being linked to the case.
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So why did Amaral tell fibs about CB's camper van and his hair?
I’m afraid you’d have to ask him that but it doesn’t have to follow that because he believed Brueckner was a patsy that he empathised with him.
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I’m afraid you’d have to ask him that but it doesn’t have to follow that because he believed Brueckner was a patsy that he empathised with him.
You empathise with him (and don’t deny it) so why not Amaral?
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Two people in the poop together, do you mean?
I read somewhere that Amaral resigned so he could publish his book. He talked of political interference in the way his investigation was going.
You'd think this point would have been made clear in his book, and I can't really recall if it was. But the McCanns seemed to feel their reputation was damaged by the book. I think it was too.
But I'm thinking of late that the McCanns and Amaral are really on the same side, they both wanted to find out what happened.
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I’m afraid you’d have to ask him that but it doesn’t have to follow that because he believed Brueckner was a patsy that he empathised with him.
You'd have to be pretty cold to say someone was a patsy and not feel some empathy for the person being a patsy.
Only the person in question can really know how he/she feels.
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I read somewhere that Amaral resigned so he could publish his book. He talked of political interference in the way his investigation was going.
You'd think this point would have been made clear in his book, and I can't really recall if it was. But the McCanns seemed to feel their reputation was damaged by the book. I think it was too.
But I'm thinking of late that the McCanns and Amaral are really on the same side, they both wanted to find out what happened.
I wish I could agree with you, Rob. But they have entirely different suspects.
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You'd have to be pretty cold to say someone was a patsy and not feel some empathy for the person being a patsy.
Only the person in question can really know how he/she feels.
I think Brueckner is a pretty unique case and his past criminal behaviour would temper any feelings you’d usually have for someone in his position.
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I think Brueckner is a pretty unique case and his past criminal behaviour would temper any feelings you’d usually have for someone in his position.
I don’t think you actually understand the meaning of empathy.
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I wish I could agree with you, Rob. But they have entirely different suspects.
The police when they investigate a case have suspects, or whatever you want to call them, POI persons of interest will do.
They investigate that POI until they are satisfied they are not involved.
If there is political interference along a particular line of investigation what is the investigator supposed to do?
His superiors took him off the case. We'll never know if it was there or not.
As far as describing CB with long hair. - maybe he did have long hair at one time. (confused maybe)
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You have posted ~ "just hearsay and a phone ping
Is that suppose to be empathy - just because my opinion is he is not the abductor.- are you saying that is empathy tut tut
What has - what I think about the mccs got to do with this thread surely that is of topic imo
Not for comparison purposes.
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I think Amaral (like some people on here) really, really don’t want any evidence uncovered on CB that would help put him away for the crime of abduction and/or murder., and as such he (and they) can’t help themselves rooting for the loathesome individual, hoping the German investigation fails, hoping his (their) theroies about the McCanns can continue indefinitely without ever being proven wrong. CB is on their team IMO and they want him to succeed in his battle with the Germans and the media. Same thing goes for all the other paedos and reprobates that have been potential suspects in this case, you’ll always find sceptics to empathise with their plight of being linked to the case.
Absolutely.
Innocent paedophiles are yet another victim of this case & it's continuous witch hunt & I feel no sense of shame in standing up for innocent paedophiles & their right to be presumed innocent.
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This point was raised on another thread and I thought it might be interesting to discuss how, and more interestingly why, this claim has arisen.
To me Brueckner is an abhorrent individual who will always pose a danger to females of any age. I have no empathy for him and if it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he is guilty for Madeleine’s disappearance then I hope he is never again a free man. From the information in the public domain, however, we are a long way from that and pointing that out is not displaying support for Brueckner, it is simply true.
A miscarriage of justice means justice for no one, least of all Madeleine...and surely no matter what side of the fence we’re on ultimately that’s what we all hope for?
I don't think there's any doubt CB has a history of child sex abuse and petty crime eg drug dealing and theft but I don't see the evidence linking him with MM's disappearance.
I think it was quite underhanded of the authorities to reveal enough info about CB without divulging his name knowing the tabloids would out him. By all accounts he was a drifter without any real friends and family and therefore the authhorities might have seen him as easy prey knowing noone was going to defend his corner. Thank goodness for FF who I understand has received threats to his life for representing CB.
I don't have any empathy for CB but I do believe in the presumption of innocence and the right to a fair trial.
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Absolutely.
Innocent paedophiles are yet another victim of this case & it's continuous witch hunt & I feel no sense of shame in standing up for innocent paedophiles & their right to be presumed innocent.
Who’s Martin Brueckner?
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I don't think there's any doubt CB has a history of child sex abuse and petty crime eg drug dealing and theft but I don't see the evidence linking him with MM's disappearance.
I think it was quite underhanded of the authorities to reveal enough info about CB without divulging his name knowing the tabloids would out him. By all accounts he was a drifter without any real friends and family and therefore the authhorities might have seen him as easy prey knowing noone was going to defend his corner. Thank goodness for FF who I understand has received threats to his life for representing CB.
I don't have any empathy for CB but I do believe in the presumption of innocence and the right to a fair trial.
Which is only right and fair. Some however seem to think that that right should be reserved for the parents alone.
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Who’s Martin Brueckner?
Is there a reason you ask?
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Who’s Martin Brueckner?
Christian Ney....
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Christian Ney....
Is he related to Goncalo Wolters?
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Absolutely.
Innocent paedophiles are yet another victim of this case & it's continuous witch hunt & I feel no sense of shame in standing up for innocent paedophiles & their right to be presumed innocent.
Thank you.
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You have posted ~ "just hearsay and a phone ping" while you continue to post slurring the McCanns.
Isn't that expressing an opinion on the strength of the evidence against Brueckner? Nothing to do with his feelings, which is what empathy is concerned with.
A slur is "an insinuation or allegation about someone that is likely to insult them or damage their reputation." In other words, slander or libel. I can see no posts by Kizzy which fit that description.
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I read somewhere that Amaral resigned so he could publish his book. He talked of political interference in the way his investigation was going.
You'd think this point would have been made clear in his book, and I can't really recall if it was. But the McCanns seemed to feel their reputation was damaged by the book. I think it was too.
But I'm thinking of late that the McCanns and Amaral are really on the same side, they both wanted to find out what happened.
Wrong thread really but what is a reputation and how is it damaged in this case ?
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Which is only right and fair. Some however seem to think that that right should be reserved for the parents alone.
A lot of people seem to take the view if someone has a criminal history they're fair game.
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Wrong thread really but what is a reputation and how is it damaged in this case ?
Reputation: There would be a legal definition of reputation.
How is it damaged: when it published or said something which is negative as measured against reputation. (reputation could go up or down or even remain the same.)
If the thing said is already known fact that would be neutral. That might be why this new concept of "slur" is rather upsetting me.
This seems to be the main argument against libelling C. Brueckner. He already has little to no reputation so it is impossible to lower it further.
I'm not comfortable to think it works like this.
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I don't think there's any doubt CB has a history of child sex abuse and petty crime eg drug dealing and theft but I don't see the evidence linking him with MM's disappearance.
I think it was quite underhanded of the authorities to reveal enough info about CB without divulging his name knowing the tabloids would out him. By all accounts he was a drifter without any real friends and family and therefore the authhorities might have seen him as easy prey knowing noone was going to defend his corner. Thank goodness for FF who I understand has received threats to his life for representing CB.
I don't have any empathy for CB but I do believe in the presumption of innocence and the right to a fair trial.
what do you mean by “the authoritiies see him as easy prey”?
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Reputation: There would be a legal definition of reputation.
How is it damaged: when it published or said something which is negative as measured against reputation. (reputation could go up or down or even remain the same.)
If the thing said is already known fact that would be neutral. That might be why this new concept of "slur" is rather upsetting me.
This seems to be the main argument against libelling C. Brueckner. He already has little to no reputation so it is impossible to lower it further.
I'm not comfortable to think it works like this.
Like I've said previously, what ever happens the legend that he did for Madeleine is writ, he'll be for ever mentioned if he's even not involved, the slur is established that circumstantial evidence links him, which Wolters doesn't mention does he ? All Wolters really mentioned is that they were seeking a caller to a phone registered to him, and appeals about cars. Wolters says he has concrete evidence, the rest is made up of what that evidence is, is that a slur on his suspects character, mainly because of past discretions highlighted by the rabid british press. He's not of previous good character, ergo its him, yeah right.
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Like I've said previously, what ever happens the legend that he did for Madeleine is writ, he'll be for ever mentioned if he's even not involved, the slur is established that circumstantial evidence links him, which Wolters doesn't mention does he ? All Wolters really mentioned is that they were seeking a caller to a phone registered to him, and appeals about cars. Wolters says he has concrete evidence, the rest is made up of what that evidence is, is that a slur on his suspects character, mainly because of past discretions highlighted by the rabid british press. He's not of previous good character, ergo its him, yeah right.
“past discretions (sic)” - minimising serious crimes of rape and child abuse.
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I don't think there's any doubt CB has a history of child sex abuse and petty crime eg drug dealing and theft but I don't see the evidence linking him with MM's disappearance.
I think it was quite underhanded of the authorities to reveal enough info about CB without divulging his name knowing the tabloids would out him. By all accounts he was a drifter without any real friends and family and therefore the authhorities might have seen him as easy prey knowing noone was going to defend his corner. Thank goodness for FF who I understand has received threats to his life for representing CB.
I don't have any empathy for CB but I do believe in the presumption of innocence and the right to a fair trial.
Amaral is entirely responsible for Brueckner's name ending up in the public domain whether that was down to empathy or expediency his leaking fingerprints are all over it which was celebrated along with those who welcomed his interference in the German investigation into Madeleine's case.
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Isn't that expressing an opinion on the strength of the evidence against Brueckner? Nothing to do with his feelings, which is what empathy is concerned with.
A slur is "an insinuation or allegation about someone that is likely to insult them or damage their reputation." In other words, slander or libel. I can see no posts by Kizzy which fit that description.
In my opinion many of the expressions of "opinion on the strength of the evidence" amount to empathising with the prime suspect and none has been more vigorously challenged than the evidence in the PJ files and the ping from Brueckner's phone.
In my opinion there is a high probability that there may be a dearth of slurs aimed at innocent people remaining on the threads because they have been removed as per forum rules.
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Like I've said previously, what ever happens the legend that he did for Madeleine is writ, he'll be for ever mentioned if he's even not involved, the slur is established that circumstantial evidence links him, which Wolters doesn't mention does he ? All Wolters really mentioned is that they were seeking a caller to a phone registered to him, and appeals about cars. Wolters says he has concrete evidence, the rest is made up of what that evidence is, is that a slur on his suspects character, mainly because of past discretions highlighted by the rabid british press. He's not of previous good character, ergo its him, yeah right.
Interesting that you see slurs as far as a serial child abuser and convicted rapist is concerned but have no compunction in casting slurs on the prosecutor following evidence in the case of a missing child.
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Like I've said previously, what ever happens the legend that he did for Madeleine is writ, he'll be for ever mentioned if he's even not involved, the slur is established that circumstantial evidence links him, which Wolters doesn't mention does he ? All Wolters really mentioned is that they were seeking a caller to a phone registered to him, and appeals about cars. Wolters says he has concrete evidence, the rest is made up of what that evidence is, is that a slur on his suspects character, mainly because of past discretions highlighted by the rabid british press. He's not of previous good character, ergo its him, yeah right.
If you get the chance I can highly recommend Crime Scene Vanishing at the Cecil Hotel on Netflix. Excellent documentary that keeps you enthralled right until the end credits.
Two points from it. One of the detectives investigating the victim Elisa Lam’s disappearance was explaining why the last video of Elisa alive in a lift had been released to the public....not word for word but the gist of his comment was ‘when you have no leads left and nowhere to go you appeal to the public’.
Second point...that once you appeal to the public you get every Dave, Andy and Gordon calling up to let you know their theories. I’ll bet you a penny to a pinch of salt the vast majority of the two hundred odd calls and emails received after Wolter’s appeal were precisely that.
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If you get the chance I can highly recommend Crime Scene Vanishing at the Cecil Hotel on Netflix. Excellent documentary that keeps you enthralled right until the end credits.
Two points from it. One of the detectives investigating the victim Elisa Lam’s disappearance was explaining why the last video of Elisa alive in a lift had been released to the public....not word for word but the gist of his comment was ‘when you have no leads left and nowhere to go you appeal to the public’.
Second point...that once you appeal to the public you get every Dave, Andy and Gordon calling up to let you know their theories. I’ll bet you a penny to a pinch of salt the vast majority of the two hundred odd calls and emails received after Wolter’s appeal were precisely that.
Wolters only received two hundred calls and emails after his appeal? That’s a pretty poor show. But even if 199 of them were useless, one of them might have been all it needed to take the case forward to the next stage.
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If you get the chance I can highly recommend Crime Scene Vanishing at the Cecil Hotel on Netflix. Excellent documentary that keeps you enthralled right until the end credits.
Two points from it. One of the detectives investigating the victim Elisa Lam’s disappearance was explaining why the last video of Elisa alive in a lift had been released to the public....not word for word but the gist of his comment was ‘when you have no leads left and nowhere to go you appeal to the public’.
Second point...that once you appeal to the public you get every Dave, Andy and Gordon calling up to let you know their theories. I’ll bet you a penny to a pinch of salt the vast majority of the two hundred odd calls and emails received after Wolter’s appeal were precisely that.
The Elisa Lam case was discussed here in 2015... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5920.0 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5920.0)