UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: muratfan on May 04, 2013, 01:23:21 AM
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August 16, 2007
Traces of blood discovered in the bedroom where Madeleine McCann was sleeping on the night that she disappeared do not come from the missing girl, The Times has learnt.
The conclusion that the blood came from a man follows two weeks of reports that the traces proved that Madeleine had been killed in the Algarve holiday apartment.
The finding will give fresh hope to Kate and Gerry McCann, who have said that they continue to believe that their daughter will still be found alive 105 days after she was taken from her bed.
The minute spots of blood, which were discovered on a bedroom wall by British sniffer dogs, had been sent for testing at the headquarters of the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham.
The four pages of technical results conclude that the blood did not come from Madeleine.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article2595723.ece
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1559608/Madeleine-McCann-Blood-found-in-bedroom.html
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What blood? Nothing was forensically identified as being blood in that apartment, as far as I'm aware.
I've never even found a mention of DNA on the bedroom wall.
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There was blood found which belonged to the occupant before the McCanns. He bled whilst shaving
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What blood? Nothing was forensically identified as being blood in that apartment, as far as I'm aware.
I've never even found a mention of DNA on the bedroom wall.
I'm really not sure about that. For instance, there was definitely something on the key card from which Gerry's dna was extracted, but it wasn't specifically identified as blood.
If not blood, then what?
Or is it simply that in the report, they don't trouble to say what the body fluid is from which a result has been extracted, even though they do know it's blood?
After all, what's important is, not the material from which a dna result has been extracted, but the result itself.
ETA: Lowe does say that it is not possible to identify the material from which results are extracted by low copy number DNA.
And I reckon Grime takes that a stage further in saying Keela, in particular, will detect blood even when they can't find a trace in the laboratory.
I don't think that (statement of Grime's) is true ...
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What blood? Nothing was forensically identified as being blood in that apartment, as far as I'm aware.
I've never even found a mention of DNA on the bedroom wall.
I'm really not sure about that. For instance, there was definitely something on the key card from which Gerry's dna was extracted, but it wasn't specifically identified as blood.
If not blood, then what?
Or is it simply that in the report, they don't trouble to say what the body fluid is from which a result has been extracted, even though they do know it's blood?
After all, what's important is, not the material from which a dna result has been extracted, but the result itself.
ETA: Lowe does say that it is not possible to identify the material from which results are extracted by low copy number DNA.
And I reckon Grime takes that a stage further in saying Keela, in particular, will detect blood even when they can't find a trace in the laboratory.
I don't think that (statement of Grime's) is true ...
I'm very doubtful about that too - as if this was true then why didn't Keela alert in the other apartments? I refuse to believe that out of the thousands of people who passed through those apartments in the previous years (remember Grime claims she could detect blood from over 40 years ago) not one of them ever cut themselves or had a nosebleed or had some injury from which blood was deposited somewhere within those apartments. The same goes for the cars.
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What blood? Nothing was forensically identified as being blood in that apartment, as far as I'm aware.
I've never even found a mention of DNA on the bedroom wall.
I'm really not sure about that. For instance, there was definitely something on the key card from which Gerry's dna was extracted, but it wasn't specifically identified as blood.
If not blood, then what?
Or is it simply that in the report, they don't trouble to say what the body fluid is from which a result has been extracted, even though they do know it's blood?
After all, what's important is, not the material from which a dna result has been extracted, but the result itself.
ETA: Lowe does say that it is not possible to identify the material from which results are extracted by low copy number DNA.
And I reckon Grime takes that a stage further in saying Keela, in particular, will detect blood even when they can't find a trace in the laboratory.
I don't think that (statement of Grime's) is true ...
I'm very doubtful about that too - as if this was true then why didn't Keela alert in the other apartments? I refuse to believe that out of the thousands of people who passed through those apartments in the previous years (remember Grime claims she could detect blood from over 40 years ago) not one of them ever cut themselves or had a nosebleed or had some injury from which blood was deposited somewhere within those apartments. The same goes for the cars.
Remember that dogs:
1/ have a failure rate of between 30-90% for false positives and false negatives and
2/ respond to handler cuing.
That is why they are only indicators of evidence, not evidence usable easily in court. Mr Grime says this every time he talks about evidence- it can only be taken seriously if backed by forensics.
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There was blood found which belonged to the occupant before the McCanns. He bled whilst shaving
I don't recall any blood found. An occupant had made a statement about a shaving incident.
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I'm very doubtful about that too - as if this was true then why didn't Keela alert in the other apartments? I refuse to believe that out of the thousands of people who passed through those apartments in the previous years (remember Grime claims she could detect blood from over 40 years ago) not one of them ever cut themselves or had a nosebleed or had some injury from which blood was deposited somewhere within those apartments. The same goes for the cars.
Exactly so!
That is the converse argument to the one which runs: why did Eddie only alert to places where Madeleine had been (we will be kind and gloss over that Madeleine never went near the villa, the gym or the car) ...
It does defy belief that the places Madeleine frequented are the only ones where anyone lost blood. That and the fact that Eddie spent inordinately more time in the places Madeleine, either had been, or was associated with, (eg the car) than anywhere else
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There was blood found which belonged to the occupant before the McCanns. He bled whilst shaving
I don't recall any blood found. An occupant had made a statement about a shaving incident.
As I've asked, is it that no blood was found? Or simply that Lowe doesn't trouble to identify the material?
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There was blood found which belonged to the occupant before the McCanns. He bled whilst shaving
I don't recall any blood found. An occupant had made a statement about a shaving incident.
As I've asked, is it that no blood was found? Or simply that Lowe doesn't trouble to identify the material?
I certainly haven't found any substance identified as blood in that apartment in Lowe's report.
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Probably because Lowe doesn't trouble to identify the material (even though the material is blood) ...
Remember that stuff is sent only where the blood dog alerts.
And the blood dog alerts, alone, to blood ...
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There was blood found which belonged to the occupant before the McCanns. He bled whilst shaving
Yes Paul Gorton.
Statement by Paul Anthony Gordon
While we were in Portugal there were no incidents worthy of record, beyond this man that I have described, however there was one occasion when I cut myself shaving in the bathroom of the apartment. I would say that the cut bled for about 45 minutes and that it took some time until the cut stopped bleeding, during which period I walked around the apartment with paper tissues trying to stop the blood. Aside from this, to the best of my knowledge no one else cut themselves nor did anyone die in the apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm
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Probably because Lowe doesn't trouble to identify the material (even though the material is blood) ...
Remember that stuff is sent only where the blood dog alerts.
And the blood dog alerts, alone, to blood ...
A dog alerting to blood does not mean that blood is or was there.
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Probably because Lowe doesn't trouble to identify the material (even though the material is blood) ...
Remember that stuff is sent only where the blood dog alerts.
And the blood dog alerts, alone, to blood ...
A dog alerting to blood does not mean that blood is or was there.
False alerts such as Keela's to the curtain, you mean?
A curtain was sent to the FSS because Keela alerted and they could find no trace of blood at the FSS ...
The curtains (286A/2007 - CR/L 16 and 16B) and the piece of white curtain (286B/2007 - CR/L 1) and the fragments of bushes (286/2007 CR/L 21) were examined for the presence of blood. No blood was found.
John Lowe ...
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Probably because Lowe doesn't trouble to identify the material (even though the material is blood) ...
Remember that stuff is sent only where the blood dog alerts.
And the blood dog alerts, alone, to blood ...
A dog alerting to blood does not mean that blood is or was there.
False alerts such as Keela's to the curtain, you mean?
A curtain was sent to the FSS because Keela alerted and they could find no trace of blood at the FSS ...
The curtains (286A/2007 - CR/L 16 and 16B) and the piece of white curtain (286B/2007 - CR/L 1) and the fragments of bushes (286/2007 CR/L 21) were examined for the presence of blood. No blood was found.
John Lowe ...
Checking in a lab can neither confirm nor disconfirm whether blood was there if the trace is too small. DOgs can discriminate better than technical measurements currently.
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Checking in a lab can neither confirm nor disconfirm whether blood was there if the trace is too small. DOgs can discriminate better than technical measurements currently.
That was established how?
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Checking in a lab can neither confirm nor disconfirm whether blood was there if the trace is too small. DOgs can discriminate better than technical measurements currently.
That was established how?
Experiments!
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Checking in a lab can neither confirm nor disconfirm whether blood was there if the trace is too small. DOgs can discriminate better than technical measurements currently.
That was established how?
Experiments!
That didn't identify blood a dog found?
How did they (that's human they) know the blood was there?
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Probably because Lowe doesn't trouble to identify the material (even though the material is blood) ...
Remember that stuff is sent only where the blood dog alerts.
And the blood dog alerts, alone, to blood ...
Are you in naughty mode, Ferryman?
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Aside from the "Clever Hans" experiment (on dogs picking up subtle cues from handlers), I'd been searching for this, which took me ages to find again:
An uncorroborated alert could be the result of handler error or may reflect ultra sensitivity of the dog and the breadth of its training, e.g., a well-trained dog could "alert" upon a single strand of hair, a child's tooth or a toenail clipping, even though the presence of human remnants of those sorts is commonplace and not indicative of criminal activity.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30194903/Def-in-Limine-Cadaver-Dog
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Aside from the "Clever Hans" experiment (on dogs picking up subtle cues from handlers), I'd been searching for this, which took me ages to find again:
An uncorroborated alert could be the result of handler error or may reflect ultra sensitivity of the dog and the breadth of its training, e.g., a well-trained dog could "alert" upon a single strand of hair, a child's tooth or a toenail clipping, even though the presence of human remnants of those sorts is commonplace and not indicative of criminal activity.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30194903/Def-in-Limine-Cadaver-Dog
Priceless find ...
One of Heidie Ho's videos had an interview with a handler who boasted that his dog could find a tear drop on an (American) football pitch (much bigger than European) in 5 minutes.
I remember watching that and thinking, what earthly use is that to the uneven struggle against crime ...
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Checking in a lab can neither confirm nor disconfirm whether blood was there if the trace is too small. DOgs can discriminate better than technical measurements currently.
That was established how?
Experiments!
That didn't identify blood a dog found?
How did they (that's human they) know the blood was there?
They found human DNA in trace quantities. The quantity was too small to determine whether it was from blood or any other source.
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Checking in a lab can neither confirm nor disconfirm whether blood was there if the trace is too small. DOgs can discriminate better than technical measurements currently.
That was established how?
Experiments!
That didn't identify blood a dog found?
How did they (that's human they) know the blood was there?
They found human DNA in trace quantities. The quantity was too small to determine whether it was from blood or any other source.
That is precisely what happens with results achieved by LCN dna because (I think) the material from which the result is extracted is destroyed, but the result (obviously) is preserved.
Grime takes that a stage further and says a dog will detect blood where nothing is found in a lab.
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I could be wrong, but didn't the FSS refer to material that they could not specifically identify as 'cellular material?
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I could be wrong, but didn't the FSS refer to material that they could not specifically identify as 'cellular material?
As far as I know, they were not able to specify which type of cellular material had contributed to the various DNA results.
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I could be wrong, but didn't the FSS refer to material that they could not specifically identify as 'cellular material?
Yes. Low copy number. The reference comes in Lowe's email to Stuart Prior:
What questions will we never be able to answer with LCN DNA profiling -
When was the DNA deposited -
How was the DNA deposited -
What body fluid(s) does the DIVA originate from -
Was a crime committed -
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Aside from the "Clever Hans" experiment (on dogs picking up subtle cues from handlers), I'd been searching for this, which took me ages to find again:
An uncorroborated alert could be the result of handler error or may reflect ultra sensitivity of the dog and the breadth of its training, e.g., a well-trained dog could "alert" upon a single strand of hair, a child's tooth or a toenail clipping, even though the presence of human remnants of those sorts is commonplace and not indicative of criminal activity.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30194903/Def-in-Limine-Cadaver-Dog
Priceless find ...
One of Heidie Ho's videos had an interview with a handler who boasted that his dog could find a tear drop on an (American) football pitch (much bigger than European) in 5 minutes.
I remember watching that and thinking, what earthly use is
that to the uneven struggle against crime ...
I don't know.
From the other research, a dog could pick up clues from the handler, although not necessarily.
Right.
Then, this other research suggests that they could become hypersensitive in a very focused work mode.
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I'm very doubtful about that too - as if this was true then why didn't Keela alert in the other apartments? I refuse to believe that out of the thousands of people who passed through those apartments in the previous years (remember Grime claims she could detect blood from over 40 years ago) not one of them ever cut themselves or had a nosebleed or had some injury from which blood was deposited somewhere within those apartments. The same goes for the cars.
The simple reason for that is that Keela was not deployed in the other apartments or cars. And the reason for that is because Eddie did not react in them. Only when Eddie alerts is Keela ever sent in to find forensic evidence.
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I'm very doubtful about that too - as if this was true then why didn't Keela alert in the other apartments? I refuse to believe that out of the thousands of people who passed through those apartments in the previous years (remember Grime claims she could detect blood from over 40 years ago) not one of them ever cut themselves or had a nosebleed or had some injury from which blood was deposited somewhere within those apartments. The same goes for the cars.
The simple reason for that is that Keela was not deployed in the other apartments or cars. And the reason for that is because Eddie did not react in them. Only when Eddie alerts is Keela ever sent in to find forensic evidence.
You still don't understand the dogs.
Eddie reacts to dried blood.
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I was responding to Benice's question regarding Keela, if that's ok with you.
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I was responding to Benice's question regarding Keela, if that's ok with you.
And still not understanding the dogs.
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I was responding to Benice's question regarding Keela, if that's ok with you.
And still not understanding the dogs.
In what way? As all I can do is second guess your meaning. Are you suggesting that it is curious that Eddie did not alert to any dry blood in the other apartments and cars?
The query was simple, it was about Keela, so I put Benice straight on that one.
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I was responding to Benice's question regarding Keela, if that's ok with you.
And still not understanding the dogs.
In what way? As all I can do is second guess your meaning. Are you suggesting that it is curious that Eddie did not alert to any dry blood in the other apartments and cars?
The query was simple, it was about Keela, so I put Benice straight on that one.
Both dogs alert to blood. Keela is more specific on location.
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The assumption that absolutely everything sent to the FSS had a component of blood is reasonable.
That is because
A Keela reacts, alone, to blood
B Only stuff Keela reacted to was sent.
C. (With the exception of the gym, where Keela was deployed first without reacting) Eddie is always deployed first, and Keela only where Eddie reacts.
Where does that leave the (non) argument of "cadaver scent"?
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I'm very doubtful about that too - as if this was true then why didn't Keela alert in the other apartments? I refuse to believe that out of the thousands of people who passed through those apartments in the previous years (remember Grime claims she could detect blood from over 40 years ago) not one of them ever cut themselves or had a nosebleed or had some injury from which blood was deposited somewhere within those apartments. The same goes for the cars.
The simple reason for that is that Keela was not deployed in the other apartments or cars. And the reason for that is because Eddie did not react in them. Only when Eddie alerts is Keela ever sent in to find forensic evidence.
I take your point Redblossom, but the same can be said about Eddie - as according to Grime he also could alert to ancient deposits - including dried blood.
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I'm very doubtful about that too - as if this was true then why didn't Keela alert in the other apartments? I refuse to believe that out of the thousands of people who passed through those apartments in the previous years (remember Grime claims she could detect blood from over 40 years ago) not one of them ever cut themselves or had a nosebleed or had some injury from which blood was deposited somewhere within those apartments. The same goes for the cars.
The simple reason for that is that Keela was not deployed in the other apartments or cars. And the reason for that is because Eddie did not react in them. Only when Eddie alerts is Keela ever sent in to find forensic evidence.
I take your point Redblossom, but the same can be said about Eddie - as according to Grime he also could alert to ancient deposits - including dried blood.
Grime deployed Eddie for inordinate lengths of time in those places associated with Madeleine.
The other places (and the cars aside from the Renault) were whistle-stop tours/virtually ignored ...
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I'm very doubtful about that too - as if this was true then why didn't Keela alert in the other apartments? I refuse to believe that out of the thousands of people who passed through those apartments in the previous years (remember Grime claims she could detect blood from over 40 years ago) not one of them ever cut themselves or had a nosebleed or had some injury from which blood was deposited somewhere within those apartments. The same goes for the cars.
The simple reason for that is that Keela was not deployed in the other apartments or cars. And the reason for that is because Eddie did not react in them. Only when Eddie alerts is Keela ever sent in to find forensic evidence.
I take your point Redblossom, but the same can be said about Eddie - as according to Grime he also could alert to ancient deposits - including dried blood.
Grime deployed Eddie for inordinate lengths of time in those places associated with Madeleine.
The other places (and the cars aside from the Renault) were whistle-stop tours/virtually ignored ...
Exactly. In fact he spent no more than 25/30 seconds on each of the other cars and IIRC Eddie did not even do a full circuit of car no 3 (?) and still Grime allowed him to move one. In contrast he spent a full 2 minutes standing by the Renault repeatedly calling the dog back to it and indicating to the dog by touching the car several times. If that wasn't sending a message to the dog - then why do that?
Also in view of the 'Madeleine stickers'' on the Renault - I find Grime's claim that he didn't know it was the McCanns car very hard to believe.
The 'bias' displayed was breathtaking. IMO
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The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
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The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Interesting. Thank you. So the defence lawyer doesn't seem to have seen the Lowe report, either?
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The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Gerry wouldn't have known about Anthony Gordon's shaving cut at that point.
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The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Gerry wouldn't have known about Anthony Gordon's shaving cut at that point.
What difference would that have made to Gerry's desperate excuse for Madeleine's blood being found in the apartment.
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The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Gerry wouldn't have known about Anthony Gordon's shaving cut at that point.
What difference would that have made to Gerry's desperate excuse for Madeleine's blood being found in the apartment.
Was any blood found?
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The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Gerry wouldn't have known about Anthony Gordon's shaving cut at that point.
What difference would that have made to Gerry's desperate excuse for Madeleine's blood being found in the apartment.
Was any blood found?
Gerry thought they'd found Madeleine's.. hence the excuse.
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The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Gerry wouldn't have known about Anthony Gordon's shaving cut at that point.
What difference would that have made to Gerry's desperate excuse for Madeleine's blood being found in the apartment.
"Desperate excuse"?
Other than in quantities compatible with loss of life (which it wasn't!) where is the big deal about Madeleine's blood being found in the apartment?
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The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
Gerry wouldn't have known about Anthony Gordon's shaving cut at that point.
What difference would that have made to Gerry's desperate excuse for Madeleine's blood being found in the apartment.
Was any blood found?
There is a reference to Madeleine's DNA being found in the apartment. But it's no big deal. Even Amaral acknowledges that.