So It Wasn't Madeleine's Blood In The Apartment

[ferryman]

Checking in a lab can neither confirm nor disconfirm whether blood was there if the trace is too small. DOgs can discriminate better than technical measurements currently.

That was established how?

[debunker]

Checking in a lab can neither confirm nor disconfirm whether blood was there if the trace is too small. DOgs can discriminate better than technical measurements currently.

That was established how?

Experiments!

[ferryman]

Checking in a lab can neither confirm nor disconfirm whether blood was there if the trace is too small. DOgs can discriminate better than technical measurements currently.

That was established how?

Experiments!

That didn't identify blood a dog found?

How did they (that's human they) know the blood was there?

[Carana]

Probably because Lowe doesn't trouble to identify the material (even though the material is blood) ...

Remember that stuff is sent only where the blood dog alerts.

And the blood dog alerts, alone, to blood ...

Are you in naughty mode, Ferryman?

[Carana]

Aside from the "Clever Hans" experiment (on dogs picking up subtle cues from handlers), I'd been searching for this, which took me ages to find again:

An uncorroborated alert could be the result of handler error or may reflect ultra sensitivity of the dog and the breadth of its training, e.g., a well-trained dog could "alert" upon a single strand of hair, a child's tooth or a toenail clipping, even though the presence of human remnants of those sorts is commonplace and not indicative of criminal activity.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/30194903/Def-in-Limine-Cadaver-Dog

[ferryman]

Aside from the "Clever Hans" experiment (on dogs picking up subtle cues from handlers), I'd been searching for this, which took me ages to find again:

An uncorroborated alert could be the result of handler error or may reflect ultra sensitivity of the dog and the breadth of its training, e.g., a well-trained dog could "alert" upon a single strand of hair, a child's tooth or a toenail clipping, even though the presence of human remnants of those sorts is commonplace and not indicative of criminal activity.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/30194903/Def-in-Limine-Cadaver-Dog

Priceless find ...

One of Heidie Ho's videos had an interview with a handler who boasted that his dog could find a tear drop on an (American) football pitch (much bigger than European) in 5 minutes.

I remember watching that and thinking, what earthly use is that to the uneven struggle against crime ...

[debunker]

Checking in a lab can neither confirm nor disconfirm whether blood was there if the trace is too small. DOgs can discriminate better than technical measurements currently.

That was established how?

Experiments!

That didn't identify blood a dog found?

How did they (that's human they) know the blood was there?

They found human DNA in trace quantities. The quantity was too small to determine whether it was from blood or any other source.

[ferryman]

Checking in a lab can neither confirm nor disconfirm whether blood was there if the trace is too small. DOgs can discriminate better than technical measurements currently.

That was established how?

Experiments!

That didn't identify blood a dog found?

How did they (that's human they) know the blood was there?

They found human DNA in trace quantities. The quantity was too small to determine whether it was from blood or any other source.

That is precisely what happens with results achieved by LCN dna because (I think) the material from which the result is extracted is destroyed, but the result (obviously) is preserved.

Grime takes that a stage further and says a dog will detect blood where nothing is found in a lab.

[Benice]

I could be wrong, but didn't the FSS refer to material that they could not specifically identify as 'cellular material?

[Carana]

I could be wrong, but didn't the FSS refer to material that they could not specifically identify as 'cellular material?

As far as I know, they were not able to specify which type of cellular material had contributed to the various DNA results.

[ferryman]

I could be wrong, but didn't the FSS refer to material that they could not specifically identify as 'cellular material?

Yes. Low copy number.  The reference comes in Lowe's email to Stuart Prior:

What questions will we never be able to answer with LCN DNA profiling -

When was the DNA deposited - 
How was the DNA deposited - 
What body fluid(s) does the DIVA originate from - 
Was a crime committed -

[Carana]

Aside from the "Clever Hans" experiment (on dogs picking up subtle cues from handlers), I'd been searching for this, which took me ages to find again:

An uncorroborated alert could be the result of handler error or may reflect ultra sensitivity of the dog and the breadth of its training, e.g., a well-trained dog could "alert" upon a single strand of hair, a child's tooth or a toenail clipping, even though the presence of human remnants of those sorts is commonplace and not indicative of criminal activity.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/30194903/Def-in-Limine-Cadaver-Dog

Priceless find ...

One of Heidie Ho's videos had an interview with a handler who boasted that his dog could find a tear drop on an (American) football pitch (much bigger than European) in 5 minutes.

I remember watching that and thinking, what earthly use is
 that to the uneven struggle against crime ...

I don't know.

From the other research, a dog could pick up clues from the handler, although not necessarily.

Right.

Then, this other research suggests that they could become hypersensitive in a very focused work mode.

[Redblossom]

I'm very doubtful about that too - as if this was true then why didn't Keela alert in the other apartments?  I refuse to believe that out of the  thousands of people who passed through those apartments in the previous years (remember Grime claims she could detect blood from over 40 years ago) not one of them ever cut themselves or had a nosebleed or had some injury from which blood was deposited somewhere within those apartments.   The same goes for the cars.

The simple reason for that is that Keela was not deployed in the other apartments or cars. And the reason for that is because Eddie did not react in them. Only when Eddie alerts is Keela ever sent in to find forensic evidence.

[debunker]

I'm very doubtful about that too - as if this was true then why didn't Keela alert in the other apartments?  I refuse to believe that out of the  thousands of people who passed through those apartments in the previous years (remember Grime claims she could detect blood from over 40 years ago) not one of them ever cut themselves or had a nosebleed or had some injury from which blood was deposited somewhere within those apartments.   The same goes for the cars.

The simple reason for that is that Keela was not deployed in the other apartments or cars. And the reason for that is because Eddie did not react in them. Only when Eddie alerts is Keela ever sent in to find forensic evidence.

You still don't understand the dogs.

Eddie reacts to dried blood.

[Redblossom]

I was responding to Benice's question regarding Keela, if that's ok with you.