UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: ferryman on January 10, 2014, 01:43:59 PM
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From a reliable source, an account of Alan Pike's testimony:
The mother of Madeleine McCann spoke of killing herself after a book by the Portuguese detective leading the case accused her and her husband of a cover-up, her counsellor told a court yesterday.
Kate McCann spoke of “not being around any more” and of taking her life after Detective Gonçalo Amaral accused her and her husband Gerry of faking an abduction after Madeleine had died.
Alan Pike has counselled Mrs McCann since her three-year-old daughter vanished at the Praia da Luz resort in the Algarve in 2007. Yesterday he told a libel hearing in Lisbon’s civil court that the book and subsequent film which claimed that Madeleine died in their villa had left her “devastated”.
Madeleine’s parents, both 45, from Rothley, Leicestershire, are suing Mr Amaral for £1 million over allegations in his book Maddie: The Truth of the Lie. The book was published in July 2008, three days after the McCanns had their status as “arguidos” — suspects — lifted. Mr Amaral also accused them of cashing in on funds raised by the Find Madeleine campaign.
“To understand the effect of the publication of the book and the following broadcast of the documentary, it’s important to understand Kate and Gerry’s recovery process in the 12 months after Madeleine’s abduction. About a year on, they were recovering from the most traumatic experience of their lives,” said Mr Pike, a clinical partner for the Centre for Crisis Psychology in Yorkshire.
Mr Pike, who was given special dispensation by Mrs McCann to disclose details of their counselling sessions, said that the speed with which the book was published after the investigation was closed had particularly shocked Mrs McCann. It “suggested there had been a relationship between them [Mr Amaral and the publisher] before the case was closed”.
“When they learnt about the contents of the book and its conclusions, this caused even more distress.” Mr Pike said that in a counselling session on 17 September 2008, Mrs McCann told him “that she had spent many days in tears, sobbing at the injustice of people who should be helping Madeleine”. There were times, she had told him, “that she felt so angry at Amaral and his friends” — including the publisher — “that she couldn’t get through the day”.
“When Kate saw the film, I remember her being further devastated,” he told the court. He described the couple as “angry, disappointed and frustrated” as well as helpless.
The case continues.
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From a reliable source, an account of Alan Pike's testimony:
The mother of Madeleine McCann spoke of killing herself after a book by the Portuguese detective leading the case accused her and her husband of a cover-up, her counsellor told a court yesterday.
Kate McCann spoke of “not being around any more” and of taking her life after Detective Gonçalo Amaral accused her and her husband Gerry of faking an abduction after Madeleine had died.
Alan Pike has counselled Mrs McCann since her three-year-old daughter vanished at the Praia da Luz resort in the Algarve in 2007. Yesterday he told a libel hearing in Lisbon’s civil court that the book and subsequent film which claimed that Madeleine died in their villa had left her “devastated”.
Madeleine’s parents, both 45, from Rothley, Leicestershire, are suing Mr Amaral for £1 million over allegations in his book Maddie: The Truth of the Lie. The book was published in July 2008, three days after the McCanns had their status as “arguidos” — suspects — lifted. Mr Amaral also accused them of cashing in on funds raised by the Find Madeleine campaign.
“To understand the effect of the publication of the book and the following broadcast of the documentary, it’s important to understand Kate and Gerry’s recovery process in the 12 months after Madeleine’s abduction. About a year on, they were recovering from the most traumatic experience of their lives,” said Mr Pike, a clinical partner for the Centre for Crisis Psychology in Yorkshire.
Mr Pike, who was given special dispensation by Mrs McCann to disclose details of their counselling sessions, said that the speed with which the book was published after the investigation was closed had particularly shocked Mrs McCann. It “suggested there had been a relationship between them [Mr Amaral and the publisher] before the case was closed”.
“When they learnt about the contents of the book and its conclusions, this caused even more distress.” Mr Pike said that in a counselling session on 17 September 2008, Mrs McCann told him “that she had spent many days in tears, sobbing at the injustice of people who should be helping Madeleine”. There were times, she had told him, “that she felt so angry at Amaral and his friends” — including the publisher — “that she couldn’t get through the day”.
“When Kate saw the film, I remember her being further devastated,” he told the court. He described the couple as “angry, disappointed and frustrated” as well as helpless.
The case continues.
Alan Pike is employed by the mccanns. BIASED SOURCE.
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Would you care to remind us all, what exactly are Pike's qualifications ?
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Would you care to remind us all, what exactly are Pike's qualifications ?
First things first Stephen - instead of trying diversion tactics - explain why Alan Pike would lie for the McCanns. It is your contention that he is BIASED. On what grounds do you make that claim?
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Go the amazon pages, they are well known, and there are links on other topics on the jf.
I leave any further insults to those such as you with limited capacities.
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First things first Stephen - instead of trying diversion tactics - explain why Alan Pike would lie for the McCanns. It is your contention that he is BIASED. On what grounds do you make that claim?
The man is in the employment of the Mccanns, so anything he states has to be judged in this regard.
Next, as asked before, provide his professional qualifications.
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The man is in the employment of the Mccanns, so anything he states has to be judged in this regard.
Next, as asked before, provide his professional qualifications.
you have a cheek to ask anyone to provide anything ,still waiting for you to provide your source dear boy 8(0(*
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Go the amazon pages, they are well known, and there are links on other topics on the jf.
I leave any further insults to those such as you with limited capacities.
I don't intend going anywhere its down to you to provide a reliable source Stephen, its forum rules 8((()*/
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I don't intend going anywhere its down to you to provide a reliable source Stephen, its forum rules 8((()*/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/forum/cd/discussion.html/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg105?ie=UTF8&cdForum=FxQ9BDPD12JT49&cdPage=105&cdThread=TxELQEAT6FXQKG
It's not hard to find even when with someone clearly as inadequate as you.
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http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/forum/cd/discussion.html/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg105?ie=UTF8&cdForum=FxQ9BDPD12JT49&cdPage=105&cdThread=TxELQEAT6FXQKG
It's not hard to find even when with someone clearly as inadequate as you.
8((()*/
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The man is in the employment of the Mccanns, so anything he states has to be judged in this regard.
Next, as asked before, provide his professional qualifications.
IIRC It was Mark Warner who first arranged for Alan Pike to go to PdL to give trauma counselling - not the McCanns. So what reason would he have to lie about their emotional state. Apart from anything else he didn't know them from Adam.
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Surely, Alan Pike works for the organisation who employ him. And not for The McCanns. The McCanns aren't the only people he has counselled, and they don't pay his salary. Any of them.
The questions can only concern his qualifications.
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Surely, Alan Pike works for the organisation who employ him. And not for The McCanns. The McCanns aren't the only people he has counselled, and they don't pay his salary. Any of them.
The questions can only concern his qualifications.
He later worked for them privately..from end 2007 for three years
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2304.0
and last but one sentence here
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ALAN-PIKE.htm
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He later worked for them privately..from end 2007 for three years
Really ? Do you know what his role was?
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Really ? Do you know what his role was?
Sorry, I added the link to his wthess statement tardily...as a counsellor
MW requested he take the next possible flight to the Algarve. He says he provided professional services to the McCann family on a regular basis up until September 2007. After they went back to the UK he continued to counsel them up until about 3 years ago. He is now in contact with them on a pro bono (no charge) basis by e-mail and telephone. From the end of 2007, he was engaged by the McCanns directly. He says MW did much more than would have normally been expected of such a company.
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Sorry, I added the link to his wthess statement tardily...as a counsellor
MW requested he take the next possible flight to the Algarve. He says he provided professional services to the McCann family on a regular basis up until September 2007. After they went back to the UK he continued to counsel them up until about 3 years ago. He is now in contact with them on a pro bono (no charge) basis by e-mail and telephone. From the end of 2007, he was engaged by the McCanns directly. He says MW did much more than would have normally been expected of such a company.
I suppose they were wanting to cover their arses and avoid undue criticism of their organisational shortcomings.
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I suppose they were wanting to cover their arses and avoid undue criticism of their organisational shortcomings.
I am getting to quite like you. You have the means and ability to think. Even though we don't agree.
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I suppose they were wanting to cover their arses and avoid undue criticism of their organisational shortcomings.
Well, with half the worlds media parked on their doorstep, I guess it was PR as well....but yes, it was an unprecedented incident and they did what they could
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The man is in the employment of the Mccanns, so anything he states has to be judged in this regard.
Next, as asked before, provide his professional qualifications.
He was a social worker.
" Alan Pike, Clinical Partner
Before joining CCP, Alan spent 14 years as a social worker in child protection, working with children from 0-16 years old and with their families. His experience in trauma aftercare includes involvement in cases of domestic violence, child abuse, child death and loss and bereavement following adoption.
Alan was made Clinical Partner in December 2005 and as well as consulting he also delivers training to CCP customers."
Therefore he would have either taken an HCPC approved 1st degree in social work, or a 2 year postgraduate degree in social work.
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He was a social worker.
" Alan Pike, Clinical Partner
Before joining CCP, Alan spent 14 years as a social worker in child protection, working with children from 0-16 years old and with their families. His experience in trauma aftercare includes involvement in cases of domestic violence, child abuse, child death and loss and bereavement following adoption.
Alan was made Clinical Partner in December 2005 and as well as consulting he also delivers training to CCP customers."
Therefore he would have either taken an HCPC approved 1st degree in social work, or a 2 year postgraduate degree in social work.
He is not qualified to speak on the matter of Kate McCann's mental health then, is he ?
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He is not qualified to speak on the matter of Kate McCann's mental health then, is he ?
His CV would indicate that he is strongly qualified.
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He is not qualified to speak on the matter of Kate McCann's mental health then, is he ?
has he had any further training in trauma counselling?
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I'm sure he would be trumped by a medically qualified psychiatrist any day.
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His CV would indicate that he is strongly qualified.
In what pray tell ?
Is he a qualified bona fide psychiatrist ?
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I'm sure he would be trumped by a medically qualified psychiatrist any day.
From what I have read he is a qualified social worker, qualification being a first degree in social sciences, plus his experience of a decade or so in the field....in his witness statement at court thats all he said...I dont think he is a psychologist...I thnk he also said that in court...Im sure you can find details on Linkedin if you have an account
Eta
Yes, he was asked in court and said no he was not psychologist though his degree contaning a few elements on the subject!
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In what pray tell ?
Is he a qualified bona fide psychiatrist ?
And even if he is, in this instance he has to prove it was the publication of Dr Amaral's book that caused the trauma not the disappearance of the child. That would need some fancy tap dancing one feels.
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And even if he is, in this instance he has to prove it was the publication of Dr Amaral's book that caused the trauma not the disappearance of the child. That would need some fancy tap dancing one feels.
Dare I say impossible ?
As hearsay is insufficient.
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I'm sure he would be trumped by a medically qualified psychiatrist any day.
Only a mental health professional has the authority to speak on issues as serious as suicidal tendancies/thoughts
Alan Pike is not a mental health professional ... he not a health professional at all ( not even a psychologist, as pointed out in court )
His observations about the state of Kate's mental health were outside his professional remit and therefore of no value in terms of expertise
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And even if he is, in this instance he has to prove it was the publication of Dr Amaral's book that caused the trauma not the disappearance of the child. That would need some fancy tap dancing one feels.
It would be very easy to prove that amarals claims added to kates trauma but this is only part of their claim against him
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It would be very easy to prove that amarals claims added to kates trauma but this is only part of their claim against him
How?
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Only a mental health professional has the authority to speak on issues as serious as suicidal tendancies/thoughts
Alan Pike is not a mental health professional ... he not a health professional at all ( not even a psychologist, as pointed out in court )
His observations about the state of Kate's mental health were outside his professional remit and therefore of no value in terms of expertise
Is that what you think or is it what the court thinks
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How?
Note I say added to...pure cause an effect
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Is that what you think or is it what the court thinks
It is not a matter of opinion
Alan Pike is not qualified to speak on mental health issues
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Alan Pike's linkedin profile:
Alan Pike's Overview
Current
Clinical Partner & Trauma Consultant at CCP
Past
Clinical Consultant at CCP
Child Protection Social Worker at Local Government
Education
The Manchester Metropolitan University
Recommendations
4 people have recommended Alan
Connections
150 connections
Websites
CCP's new website
Are you prepared for a crisis?
Do you need an EAP?
Alan Pike's Summary
My experience is predominantly in the field of supporting employers and their people at times of stress and trauma, by delivering a range of support over a short period of time, focussed on them returning to normal routines as quickly as possible. This ensures a rapid recovery, minimal disruption to the organisation and promotes the the long term psychological health of the individuals concerned. CCP work accross a range of industries including retail, logistics, transport, energy, travel and tourism, leisure and hotels, and construction.
Specialties
- Face to face clinical support
- Telephone based counselling
- Training/preparation of those responding to trauma at work
- Mediation
- Online/E mail counselling.
- Flexibility to deliver support worldwide across all industries
Alan Pike's Experience
Clinical Partner & Trauma Consultant
CCP
Partnership; 11-50 employees; Professional Training & Coaching industry
September 2004 – Present (9 years 5 months)
I am currently a Partner at CCP, a leading UK company who specialise in providing psychological care and employee assistance to orgainisations, their employees, and their customers.
Clinical Consultant
CCP
September 2004 – October 2005 (1 year 2 months)
Clinical Consultant delivering trauma care to the employees and customers of CCP's wide range of clients.
Child Protection Social Worker
Local Government
September 1999 – August 2004 (5 years)
My role involved the protection of children in South Manchester in and area team, working with families experiencing domestic violence, child abuse, and fostering and adoption.
Alan Pike's Skills & Expertise
EAP Coaching Crisis Management Stress Management Counseling Psychology Leadership Development Mediation Stress Change Management Interviews NLP Management Development Training Teamwork Culture Change Psychotherapy Personal Development Psychology Healthcare Succession Planning
View All (28) Skills
Alan Pike's Education
The Manchester Metropolitan University
BA (Hons) Social Science, Psychology
1986 – 1989
Alan Pike's Additional Information
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Alan Pike's linkedin profile:
Alan Pike's Overview
Current
Clinical Partner & Trauma Consultant at CCP
Past
Clinical Consultant at CCP
Child Protection Social Worker at Local Government
Education
The Manchester Metropolitan University
Recommendations
4 people have recommended Alan
Connections
150 connections
Websites
CCP's new website
Are you prepared for a crisis?
Do you need an EAP?
Alan Pike's Summary
My experience is predominantly in the field of supporting employers and their people at times of stress and trauma, by delivering a range of support over a short period of time, focussed on them returning to normal routines as quickly as possible. This ensures a rapid recovery, minimal disruption to the organisation and promotes the the long term psychological health of the individuals concerned. CCP work accross a range of industries including retail, logistics, transport, energy, travel and tourism, leisure and hotels, and construction.
Specialties
- Face to face clinical support
- Telephone based counselling
- Training/preparation of those responding to trauma at work
- Mediation
- Online/E mail counselling.
- Flexibility to deliver support worldwide across all industries
Alan Pike's Experience
Clinical Partner & Trauma Consultant
CCP
Partnership; 11-50 employees; Professional Training & Coaching industry
September 2004 – Present (9 years 5 months)
I am currently a Partner at CCP, a leading UK company who specialise in providing psychological care and employee assistance to orgainisations, their employees, and their customers.
Clinical Consultant
CCP
September 2004 – October 2005 (1 year 2 months)
Clinical Consultant delivering trauma care to the employees and customers of CCP's wide range of clients.
Child Protection Social Worker
Local Government
September 1999 – August 2004 (5 years)
My role involved the protection of children in South Manchester in and area team, working with families experiencing domestic violence, child abuse, and fostering and adoption.
Alan Pike's Skills & Expertise
EAP Coaching Crisis Management Stress Management Counseling Psychology Leadership Development Mediation Stress Change Management Interviews NLP Management Development Training Teamwork Culture Change Psychotherapy Personal Development Psychology Healthcare Succession Planning
View All (28) Skills
Alan Pike's Education
The Manchester Metropolitan University
BA (Hons) Social Science, Psychology
1986 – 1989
Alan Pike's Additional Information
i.e. A lot of hot air, but is he a medically qualified psychiatrist ?
Clearly NO. 8)-)))
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Thats very bold of you FM
Need to bleach my eyes out now...
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Thats very bold of you FM
Need to bleach my eyes out now...
Could have been worse - he might have done it in some horridly bright fluorescent colour .
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i.e. A lot of hot air, but is he a medically qualified psychiatrist ?
Clearly NO. 8)-)))
he doesn't need to be. He almost certainly knows far more about trauma counselling than a psychiatrist...kate wasn't mentally ill, she needed support
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He isn't trained to care for someone's mental health. should he have believed Mrs Mccann to be suicidal, he should have referred he to someone qualified.
A psychiatrist spends six years in medical school, then specialises. That's why they can prescribe medication.
All the NLP in the world isn't going to affect the lack of serotonin in the brain of a clinically depressed person.
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i.e. A lot of hot air, but is he a medically qualified psychiatrist ?
Clearly NO. 8)-)))
Alan Pike probably isn't qualified to treat people with mental illnesses, no.
He never claimed otherwise.
And?
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He isn't trained to care for someone's mental health. should he have believed Mrs Mccann to be suicidal, he should have referred he to someone qualified.
A psychiatrist spends six years in medical school, then specialises. That's why they can prescribe medication.
All the NLP in the world isn't going to affect the lack of serotonin in the brain of a clinically depressed person.
You are quite wrong...theres no EVIDENCE drugs work..they are much easier to dish out though..cognitive behavioural therapy is much more effective...meditation and relaxation will alter brain chemistry
And of course jogging is excellent..produces endorphins in the brain..as you probably already know
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What does it take to prove that The McCanns were even more seriously upset?
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he doesn't need to be. He almost certainly knows far more about trauma counselling than a psychiatrist...kate wasn't mentally ill, she needed support
Suicidal feelings are not in the range of 'normal' , even for someone who has suffered that extent of trauma. It is a sign that professional help was required.
This is not a criticism of Mrs Mccann, just an observation based on the information given at trial.
You are quite wrong...theres no EVIDENCE drugs work..they are much easier to dish out though..cognitive behavioural therapy is much more effective...meditation and relaxation will alter brain chemistry
Luckily I wouldn't ask a dentist for advice on my mental health.
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He isn't trained to care for someone's mental health. should he have believed Mrs Mccann to be suicidal, he should have referred he to someone qualified.
A psychiatrist spends six years in medical school, then specialises. That's why they can prescribe medication.
All the NLP in the world isn't going to affect the lack of serotonin in the brain of a clinically depressed person.
I find that valium, ssri's, a healthy diet, rigouros exercise & plenty of sexual intercourse tends to alliviate the syptoms of the lack of seretonin in my brain.
Unfortunateley I don't do enough of any of those things.
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Suicidal feelings are not in the range of 'normal' , even for someone who has suffered that extent of trauma. It is a sign that professional help was required.
This is not a criticism of Mrs Mccann, just an observation based on the information given at trial.
Luckily I wouldn't ask a dentist for advice on my mental health.
Suicidal thoughts are quite normal in Kates situation and not a sign of mental illness
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Suicidal thoughts are quite normal in Kates situation and not a sign of mental illness
So she wasn't depressed then?
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So she wasn't depressed then?
depends what you mean by depressed
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Suicidal thoughts are quite normal in Kates situation and not a sign of mental illness
How do you know ?
Are you a Doctor, Psychiatrist, or in the words of Doctor McCoy '.. a brick layer' ?
@)(++(*
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He isn't trained to care for someone's mental health. should he have believed Mrs Mccann to be suicidal, he should have referred he to someone qualified.
A psychiatrist spends six years in medical school, then specialises. That's why they can prescribe medication.
All the NLP in the world isn't going to affect the lack of serotonin in the brain of a clinically depressed person.
The writ actually said KM was in a deep and serious depression...according to who is unclear
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/27JULY9/MIRROR_12_07_09.htm
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depends what you mean by depressed
Pushed in like one of those tamper device things on top of crab paste jars.
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How do you know ?
Are you a Doctor, Psychiatrist, or in the words of Doctor McCoy '.. a brick layer' ?
@)(++(*
unlike you Stephen I make no claims as to what I do for a living
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Suicidal thoughts are quite normal in Kates situation and not a sign of mental illness
What a silly thing to say
Suicidal tendencies/thoughts are a sign of very serious mental illness and not even a GP would consider offering treatment until an urgent assessment had been been made by a psychiatrist , almost invarioubly after emergency admittance to a psychiatric unit
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depends what you mean by depressed
someone lacking serotonin or noradrenaline in their brain, leading to thoughts of desperation, despair or even suicide.
This can be caused by a stressful life event such as a death or divorce. It can also be spontaneous.
Depression is an illness that is outside of the 'normal' range of emotions. It's the differance between a spot and acne, a mole and skin cancer.
Suggesting treating clinical depression with meditation is like suggesting someone treats a brain tumour with a foot massage.
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The writ actually said KM was in a deep and serious depression...according to who is unclear
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/27JULY9/MIRROR_12_07_09.htm
An abstract from the linked document
And it accuses Amaral of being a self-obsessed, manipulative money-grabber with no morals.
This should get a Nobel Prize for droll.
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What a silly thing to say
Suicidal tendencies/thoughts are a sign of very serious mental illness and not even a GP would consider offering treatment until an urgent assessment had been been made by a psychiatrist , almost invarioubly after emergency admittance to a psychiatric unit
To be affected by suicidal thoughts is a mental imbalance, often brought about by stressful external circumstances (such as having your daughter abducted) which can be temporary.
Long-term and intractable mental illness is quite different, and what psychiatrists treat.
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The writ actually said KM was in a deep and serious depression...according to who is unclear
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/27JULY9/MIRROR_12_07_09.htm
They say they suffer 'permanent anxiety, insomnia, lack of appetite, irritability and an indefinable fear'. The writ also says Kate McCann is 'steeped in a deep and serious depression'.
It's a medically recognised kind of deep & serious depression that only vast quantities of money can cure.
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Many people at very low times in their lives with little support (something the mccanns had tonnes of) have the thoughts cross their mind..?.many dont actually mean it...and doesnt seem to be the case here.>>>>>
MORGAN: Did either of you ever get suicidal?
K. MCCANN: No. I mean, I don't think I was ever suicidal but I often wished my life would be over. You know, I'd never had planned anything or done anything. I knew that wasn't a possibility, that wasn't an option. But, you know, so much pain. I used to think about, God, let's just pull the duvet over and I won't wake up tomorrow.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1105/11/pmt.01.html
So I agree if Pike was concerned at all he would have done something about it
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To be affected by suicidal thoughts is a mental imbalance, often brought about by stressful external circumstances (such as having your daughter abducted) which can be temporary.
Long-term and intractable mental illness is quite different, and what psychiatrists treat.
The question was about depression, which if serious enough would be treated by a psychiatrist.
Psychologists are a different kettle of fish.
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I find that valium, ssri's, a healthy diet, rigouros exercise & plenty of sexual intercourse tends to alliviate the syptoms of the lack of seretonin in my brain.
Unfortunateley I don't do enough of any of those things.
Eating small quantities of black grapes every day does help.
What is Sexual Intercourse? Nothing to do with Fanny's, hopefully.
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The question was about depression, which if serious enough would be treated by a psychiatrist.
Psychologists are a different kettle of fish.
Now that is precisely the point.
It was rather like employing metardo3 to find Madeleine, a company who had no relevant experience, other than for industrial spying.
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Now that is precisely the point.
It was rather like employing metardo3 to find Madeleine, a company who had no relevant experience, other than for industrial spying.
Quite bizarre, especially when their employees were given a bunch of cuddlecats to squeeze whenever they felt under pressure/despondent...wtf what all that about?
>@@(*&)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-510321/McCanns-wasting-fund-cash-Madeleine-hunt-Morocco.html
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The McCanns, both doctors from Rothley, Leics, claim Amaral's repeated insistence that their daughter is dead has stopped people looking for her. The lawsuit states: "Madeleine has been deprived of the possibility of a fair and adequate investigation into her disappearance, putting her moral and physical integrity at serious risk."
It says Gerry and Kate have been "totally destroyed from a moral, social, ethical, emotional and family point of view, beyond the pain that the absence of their eldest daughter causes them".
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/27JULY9/MIRROR_12_07_09.htm
That is a concoction of client/ lawyers cahones and nonsense
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Thank you very much for clarifying that for me.
I wonder why the Judge has asked for documents about the WOC issue?
Are the people who claimed that these were delaying tactics standing by that assertion now they are aware that it was the Mccanns who have asked for a postponement?
Oh look a flying pig
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That is a concoction of client/ lawyers cahones and nonsense
No Red,
Just one look at them & you can see how totally destroyed they are, morally, ethically, socially & emotionally beyond the pain that their daughters disappearance has caused them.
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No Red,
Just one look at them & you can see how totally destroyed they are, morally, ethically, socially & emotionally beyond the pain that their daughters disappearance has caused them.
No thanks.....
>@@(*&)
How that woman can say she hopes Mr Amaral feels misery and fear for what hes done to her daughter is beyond most normal and rational persons comprehension
Then again in interviews I wondered about KM s mind.....when asked about the dogs, she responded with, I believe most people are good people
>@@(*&)
Didnt take her long to say what she really thought though two yrs later in her book!
@)(++(*
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No Red,
Just one look at them & you can see how totally destroyed they are, morally, ethically, socially & emotionally beyond the pain that their daughters disappearance has caused them.
I was wondering who posted that letter in Amsterdam? ?>)()<
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No Red,
Just one look at them & you can see how totally destroyed they are, morally, ethically, socially & emotionally beyond the pain that their daughters disappearance has caused them.
I thought there was a super duper injunction preventing publication of photos of them looking happy? clearly these are lookylikies.
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I thought there was a super duper injunction preventing publication of photos of them looking happy? clearly these are lookylikies.
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/309935/McCann-fears-for-twins
well some reporters, see last but one paragraph are under the impression KM never smiled in public since 2007
8-)(--)
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Only a mental health professional has the authority to speak on issues as serious as suicidal tendancies/thoughts
Alan Pike is not a mental health professional ... he not a health professional at all ( not even a psychologist, as pointed out in court )
His observations about the state of Kate's mental health were outside his professional remit and therefore of no value in terms of expertise
Correct.
From Linkedin and elsewhere it is clear that he has an impressive CV, but he is not a psychiatrist, (or even a qualified psychologist) and is therefore unqualified to speak in a 'professional' capacity about Kate McCann. He may have a lot of experience in trauma and counselling which certainly makes him better qualified to speak on KM than the average person, but that's far the same as speaking in professional terms.
The question is why didn't KM provide a psychiatrist as a witness in a matter so fundamental to her building of the court case?
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Correct.
From Linkedin and elsewhere it is clear that he has an impressive CV, but he is not a psychiatrist, (or even a qualified psychologist) and is therefore unqualified to speak in a 'professional' capacity about Kate McCann. He may have a lot of experience in trauma and counselling which certainly makes him better qualified to speak on KM than the average person, but that's far the same as speaking in professional terms.
The question is why didn't KM provide a psychiatrist as a witness in a matter so fundamental to her building of the court case?
I suggest the answer to that is she doesn't have one.
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I suggest the answer to that is she doesn't have one.
Well exactly. Perhaps she didn't feel the need to go to a psychiatrist, but feeling suicidal she ought to have done.
If those around her saw that she was suicidal, why didn't they (presumably) try to persuade her?
It would also have been an idea to build a relationship with a psychiatrist in order to have a professional witness for court as to her mental state. No such relationship was forged.
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Well exactly. Perhaps she didn't feel the need to go to a psychiatrist, but feeling suicidal she ought to have done.
If those around her saw that she was suicidal, why didn't they (presumably) try to persuade her?
It would also have been an idea to build a relationship with a psychiatrist in order to have a professional witness for court as to her mental state. No such relationship was forged.
I dont think that in 2007 they would have anticipated needing a psychiatrist as an expert witness in a libel trial.
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Deleted
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I dont think that in 2007 they would have anticipated needing a psychiatrist as an expert witness in a libel trial.
Not in 2007, no, but since then.
The McCanns are claiming (amongst other things) that KM's mental health has been tested to the point of feeling suicidal. That was a much more recent development.
I am also thinking ahead a bit - as, presumably, are the McCanns. Is this trial the last time they are likely to appear in court?
Having a mental health professional to attest to one's psychological state is important for anyone 'on trial' for whatever reason. The McCanns have young twins in their care, for example, and could find themselves in the position of having to defend their psychological health with regard to looking after them..
Various reasons why being in regular contact with a psychiatrist would be important in the McCanns' position.
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Deleted...irrelevant
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Not in 2007, no, but since then.
The McCanns are claiming (amongst other things) that KM's mental health has been tested to the point of feeling suicidal. That was a much more recent development.
I am also thinking ahead a bit - as, presumably, are the McCanns. Is this trial the last time they are likely to appear in court?
Having a mental health professional to attest to one's psychological state is important for anyone 'on trial' for whatever reason. The McCanns have young twins in their care, for example, and could find themselves in the position of having to defend their psychological health with regard to looking after them..
Various reasons why being in regular contact with a psychiatrist would be important in the McCanns' position.
Why on earth would Kate McCann need to be in regular contact with a psychiatrist? She is not suffering from mental illness. Surely you mean psychologist?
Psychology is the study of people: how they think, how they act, react and interact. Psychology is concerned with all aspects of behaviour and the thoughts, feelings and motivation underlying such behaviour.
Psychiatry is the study of mental disorders and their diagnosis, management and prevention. Psychiatrists are medical doctors who have qualified in psychiatry. They often combine a broad general caseload alongside an area of special expertise and research.
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someone lacking serotonin or noradrenaline in their brain, leading to thoughts of desperation, despair or even suicide.
This can be caused by a stressful life event such as a death or divorce. It can also be spontaneous.
Depression is an illness that is outside of the 'normal' range of emotions. It's the differance between a spot and acne, a mole and skin cancer.
Suggesting treating clinical depression with meditation is like suggesting someone treats a brain tumour with a foot massage.
Depression is usually already present. It takes something to become really depressed it takes time, and it just creeps up on you.
I know.
I wonder if the depression was already present it wouldnt surprise me having to care for 3 young children under 3 its hard work, and perhaps a bit of post natal depression on top.
Anyone who has lost their child is going to feel depressed even suicidal at times who wouldnt its a normal reaction.
BUT you need to see a QUALIFIED counsellor in order to deal with it effectively.
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A large number of people in the UK will experience suicidal thoughts each year, and many more will suffer from depression. A fraction of these will ever see a psychiatrist. I believe something like one in four people in the UK will experience mental illness (including anxiety and depression) at some point in their lives. Most of these who actually seek help will be unlikely to get further than their GP.
As for seeing a psychologist (not a psychiatrist), even on the NHS, a GP's referral for someone suffering with depression is likely to be to a therapist who the surgery knows and trusts, but most of the time this will not be a psychologist.
If someone reports depression to a GP, they would of course be asked whether they had suicidal thoughts, amongst other things. Importantly, having suicidal thoughts does not actually mean the person is a risk to themselves. Only in extreme cases would a healthcare professional take immediate action, and this would, if there was a genuine threat that the individual would kill themselves, involve sectioning them. An incredibly extreme option.
Kate McCann was provided with a trauma expert immediately by a third party (Mark Warner). She obviously built a good relationship with him because she kept using him. There was no need for her to be referred to a psychologist, a GP or a psychiatrist. If she had a good relationship with her therapist, why would she move onto a different one?
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Depression is usually already present. It takes something to become really depressed it takes time, and it just creeps up on you.
I know.
I wonder if the depression was already present it wouldnt surprise me having to care for 3 young children under 3 its hard work, and perhaps a bit of post natal depression on top.
Anyone who has lost their child is going to feel depressed even suicidal at times who wouldnt its a normal reaction.
BUT you need to see a QUALIFIED counsellor in order to deal with it effectively.
She did see a qualified counsellor...one of the best available if you look on their website. A specialist in trauma counselling. Which is exactly what Kate needed. please don't hold yorurself up to be an expert in these matters when you are not.
interestingly for all the expert opinion on this forum...did Amarals team challenge the fact that the book made her further depressed ...NO...did amarals team question why she had not seen a psychiatrist...no..she didn't need to
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She did see a qualified counsellor...one of the best available if you look on their website. A specialist in trauma counselling. Which is exactly what Kate needed. please don't hold yorurself up to be an expert in these matters when you are not.
interestingly for all the expert opinion on this forum...did Amarals team challenge the fact that the book made her further depressed ...NO...did amarals team question why she had not seen a psychiatrist...no..she didn't need to
How do you know what 'kate' needed ?
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What a silly thing to say
Suicidal tendencies/thoughts are a sign of very serious mental illness and not even a GP would consider offering treatment until an urgent assessment had been been made by a psychiatrist , almost invarioubly after emergency admittance to a psychiatric unit
what a very ,very silly thing to say...totally wrong
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what a very ,very silly thing to say...totally wrong
So are you an expert in the field of psychiatry ?
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So she wasn't depressed then?
Not such a simple answer as it seems. My opinion..and its just that,an opinion, is that Kate suffered PTSD which triggered depression...there is no doubt that this is best treated by an experienced counsellor using CBT. If you look at the CCP website...they have experience in treating people involved in traumatic events
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So are you an expert in the field of psychiatry ?
Of course he is - he's an expert in everything.
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So are you an expert in the field of psychiatry ?
I have some expertise...take it or leave it... Im not willing to divulge personal information
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what a very ,very silly thing to say...totally wrong
We're all discussing this without knowing the language that was used. For example, Mrs Mccann may have said "I've had suicidal feelings, but I'm coping better now" or she may have said "I don't want to go on living without my daughter" or " I have thought about how I would kill myself and have a plan in place".
All of those things would elicit a different reaction.
As Red posted earlier, Mrs Mccann had said in interviews that she never felt suicidal. Whether that's true, or it was just too personal for her to discuss on a tv show, I don't know.
The point is, Alan Pike is not qualified to make those distinctions. If he believed her to be suicidal (rather than experiencing suicidal feelings which she felt able to cope with) he should have handed her care to someone else.
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We're all discussing this without knowing the language that was used. For example, Mrs Mccann may have said "I've had suicidal feelings, but I'm coping better now" or she may have said "I don't want to go on living without my daughter" or " I have thought about how I would kill myself and have a plan in place".
All of those things would elicit a different reaction.
As Red posted earlier, Mrs Mccann had said in interviews that she never felt suicidal. Whether that's true, or it was just too personal for her to discuss on a tv show, I don't know.
The point is, Alan Pike is not qualified to make those distinctions. If he believed her to be suicidal (rather than experiencing suicidal feelings which she felt able to cope with) he should have handed her care to someone else.
You are quite right in as much as there are different levels of suicidal thoughts... Mr Pike is an experienced counsellor and Im sure he would know how serious... the threat was
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Some information on PTSD
Posttraumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, is a serious potentially debilitating condition that can occur in people who have experienced or witnessed a natural disaster, serious accident, terrorist incident, sudden death of a loved one, war, violent personal assault such as rape, or other life-threatening events.
Most people who experience such events recover from them, but people with PTSD continue to be severely depressed and anxious for months or even years following the event.
The fact that Maddie may have met a violent death would sadly have triggered this.
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"There are days when I just want to ‘fast forward’ all of our lives so that they’ll be over, with no more pain, and we’ll all be together again." (KM)
Thoughts? Want our lives to be over i.e. death and then we'll all be together again?
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I have some expertise...take it or leave it... Im not willing to divulge personal information
Why should anyone believe you have expertise in this field ?
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Why should anyone believe you have expertise in this field ?
read the post again..it says take it or leave it.........
Some may note that what I post makes sense
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read the post again..it says take it or leave it.........
Some may note that what I post makes sense
Yeh right ok then......just as a point perhaps you can remind me when that was I have a bad memory....
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read the post again..it says take it or leave it.........
Some may note that what I post makes sense
You would need to see case notes and be able to see the person in question to make a valued judgement.
Are you saying you have ?
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You would need to see case notes and be able to see the person in question to make a valued judgement.
Are you saying you have ?
its quite obvious that Kate has suffered an incident that would trigger PTSD...which can cause depression...best treated by CBT..Thats my judgement...and its seem to be exactly whats happened...whether you value my judgement or not is immaterial...I think anyone with any expertise would come to the same conclusion
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As you seem to want to contradict me Stephen...do you have any expertise in this area?
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"There are days when I just want to ‘fast forward’ all of our lives so that they’ll be over, with no more pain, and we’ll all be together again." (KM)
Thoughts? Want our lives to be over i.e. death and then we'll all be together again?
Kate McCann CBS News 5th October 2007.
"Some days are better than others. ... There's days when you think, 'I can't do this anymore,' and you just want to press a button, and we're all gone, and it's all finished, and we're all together and gone. Wherever. But you can't, you know. Just occasionally you'll have a -- if you're having a really bad day, which we do. And you can't help but think that."
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/mom-madeleine-had-sense-of-danger/
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Some information on PTSD
Posttraumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, is a serious potentially debilitating condition that can occur in people who have experienced or witnessed a natural disaster, serious accident, terrorist incident, sudden death of a loved one, war, violent personal assault such as rape, or other life-threatening events.
Most people who experience such events recover from them, but people with PTSD continue to be severely depressed and anxious for months or even years following the event.
The fact that Maddie may have met a violent death would sadly have triggered this.
Even more so if Kate happened to witness or cause it.
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Depression is usually already present. It takes something to become really depressed it takes time, and it just creeps up on you.
I know.
I wonder if the depression was already present it wouldnt surprise me having to care for 3 young children under 3 its hard work, and perhaps a bit of post natal depression on top.
Anyone who has lost their child is going to feel depressed even suicidal at times who wouldnt its a normal reaction.
BUT you need to see a QUALIFIED counsellor in order to deal with it effectively.
True Depression.
Me too, I have been there. I am also a qualified Counsellor
and I lost my child. So I have personal experience of all three things you mention.
True depression, and I am not talking about "the blues", is normally caused by NOT one problem, but by a multitude of problems. It is injustice and ongoing unjustified criticism that is often the final straw that brings true depression about.
When my son died, I temporarily lost parts of my memory and generally functioned very badly. Strangely I did not cry, strangely I changed my sleeping position drastically .... and felt dreadful, but I wasn't depressed in the true sense. I have been trully depressed since, due to completely different multiple problems
Despite some mistakes on my behalf, when my boy died everyone supported me and my hubby. I never felt suicidal, I never felt as tho the whole world was against me; I never felt as tho there was no light at the end of the tunnel. I knew that my son, a wonderful part of me had gone ... and would never return ... and I was sad for me and mine, but most especially for my son, who would never grow up and enjoy the wonders of the World.
I would add that I was glad that my son was out of all his pain, which was horrendous. He died like some child you see on "Save the Children" advertisements. Emaciated with that look in his eyes and the little hand stretched out ... but Thank God, no flies and at home in his own bed with loved ones around him.
Now Kate
- Kate had the shock of finding Madeleine missing ....gone
- The realisation that Madeleine was taken, quite probably for unsavoury and painful abuse
- The slowly dawning realisation that the Police Force that she had trusted were NOT looking for Madeleine Frightening and soul destroying
- The shock of being made an Arguido - a suspect Awww
- The shock of being given a kind of Ultimatum: confess to a crime she hadn't done and spend 2 years in jail ... or spend a long period in jail. For something she knew that she had NOT done ! A terrible Injustice ... and not only jail, but the fact that she would be seperated from the family she loves .... and the twins / people in general, would always wonder if she had killed their sister. What a HUGE INJUSTICE had she been jailed.
- The shock of finding out that a, whipped up, vocal group of people were creating myths about her and Gerry. Terrible myths, that amounted to lies, designed to destruct them and their remaining family, untrue tho they were, ... but believed by some. Terrible myths, spread virally, and destroying their very characters Character decimation, undermining them ... so painful .... such injustice
- These myths were magnified with videos etc and put out as video propaganda. There for eternity. Another huge injustice
- The shock of finding that an Investigation group they employed were led by a criminal, who had taken money with little in return. Also valuable early search time gone Hope destroyed.
- The shock and upset of having their home targetted. Gerrys job targetted. Being watched all the time with constant criticism of their every move. Even their charity work undermined and criticized !! Constant negative criticism, so soul destroying
- The shock of having their efforts to find Madeleine destroyed by ignorant ridicule, by Red Herrings, by nasty evil people tearing down posters ... and destroying their carefully planned search efforts and wasting the funds money. Everything they did destroyed. . Hope reduced to nothing by thoughtless and sometimes downright cruel ignoramouses
- The FINAL STRAW ... The shock of having a book written about her and Gerry implicating them in Madeleines disappearance. A book that would stand in black and white for eternity ... for their children to read .... to perhaps destroy their trust in Mum and Dad .... to maybe cause mental illnesses later. ................... And written by the lead Detective, Goncalo Amaral, so it had the ring of authenticity ... to make money. Another vast on-going Injustice. So worrying
Loads more. All this negativity on top of bereavement, character assassination, undermining, propaganda, injustices, people putting the boot in, hope diminishing, etc etc. Quite probably, like me, Kate would have recovered from her depression, without suicidal thoughts, had it not been for all the negative things mentioned above.... but Amarals book would have been the major upset.
No matter that he had no forensic or other evidence, it had the ring of authority being written by the lead detective ... and it was there for perpetuity
That permanent smear, Amarals book, should have been called THE FINAL STRAW imo
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As you seem to want to contradict me Stephen...do you have any expertise in this area?
No, i don't pretend to.
You have made a claim whilst deriding other people of what they claim to do, or have experience in.
Unless, you have direct contact with kate mccann, anything you say about her, is pure supposition.
YOU DO NOT KNOW HER MENTAL STATE.
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As I have already posted...Alan Pike was called to attest to kates suffering...did amarals team call any experts to contest his evidence...no..it would have been a waste of time.
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No, i don't pretend to.
You have made a claim whilst deriding other people of what they claim to do, or have experience in.
Unless, you have direct contact with kate mccann, anything you say about her, is pure supposition.
YOU DO NOT KNOW HER MENTAL STATE.
I think I can make a guess at yours Stephen...from the use of capitals you seem to be very angry
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True Depression.
Me too, I have been there. I am also a qualified Counsellor
and I lost my child. So I have personal experience of all three things you mention.
True depression, and I am not talking about "the blues", is normally caused by NOT one problem, but by a multitude of problems. It is injustice and ongoing unjustified criticism that is often the final straw that brings true depression about.
When my son died, I temporarily lost parts of my memory and generally functioned very badly. Strangely I did not cry, strangely I changed my sleeping position drastically .... and felt dreadful, but I wasn't depressed in the true sense. I have been trully depressed since, due to completely different multiple problems
Despite some mistakes on my behalf, when my boy died everyone supported me and my hubby. I never felt suicidal, I never felt as tho the whole world was against me; I never felt as tho there was no light at the end of the tunnel. I knew that my son, a wonderful part of me had gone ... and would never return ... and I was sad for me and mine, but most especially for my son, who would never grow up and enjoy the wonders of the World.
I would add that I was glad that my son was out of all his pain, which was horrendous. He died like some child you see on "Save the Children" advertisements. Emaciated with that look in his eyes and the little hand stretched out ... but Thank God, no flies and at home in his own bed with loved ones around him.
Now Kate
- Kate had the shock of finding Madeleine missing ....gone
- The realisation that Madeleine was taken, quite probably for unsavoury and painful abuse
- The slowly dawning realisation that the Police Force that she had trusted were NOT looking for Madeleine Frightening and soul destroying
- The shock of being made an Arguido - a suspect Awww
- The shock of being given a kind of Ultimatum: confess to a crime she hadn't done and spend 2 years in jail ... or spend a long period in jail. For something she knew that she had NOT done ! A terrible Injustice ... and not only jail, but the fact that she would be seperated from the family she loves .... and the twins / people in general, would always wonder if she had killed their sister. What a HUGE INJUSTICE had she been jailed.
- The shock of finding out that a, whipped up, vocal group of people were creating myths about her and Gerry. Terrible myths, that amounted to lies, designed to destruct them and their remaining family, untrue tho they were, ... but believed by some. Terrible myths, spread virally, and destroying their very characters Character decimation, undermining them ... so painful .... such injustice
- These myths were magnified with videos etc and put out as video propaganda. There for eternity. Another huge injustice
- The shock of finding that an Investigation group they employed were led by a criminal, who had taken money with little in return. Also valuable early search time gone Hope destroyed.
- The shock and upset of having their home targetted. Gerrys job targetted. Being watched all the time with constant criticism of their every move. Even their charity work undermined and criticized !! Constant negative criticism, so soul destroying
- The shock of having their efforts to find Madeleine destroyed by ignorant ridicule, by Red Herrings, by nasty evil people tearing down posters ... and destroying their carefully planned search efforts and wasting the funds money. Everything they did destroyed. . Hope reduced to nothing by thoughtless and sometimes downright cruel ignoramouses
- The FINAL STRAW ... The shock of having a book written about her and Gerry implicating them in Madeleines disappearance. A book that would stand in black and white for eternity ... for their children to read .... to perhaps destroy their trust in Mum and Dad .... to maybe cause mental illnesses later. ................... And written by the lead Detective, Goncalo Amaral ... to make money. Another vast on-going Injustice. So worrying
Loads more. All this negativity on top of bereavement, character assassination, undermining, propaganda, injustices, people putting the boot in, hope diminishing, etc etc. Quite probably, like me, Kate would have recovered from her depression, without suicidal thoughts, had it not been for all the negative things mentioned above.... but Amarals book would have been the major upset.
No matter that he had no forensic or other evidence, it had the ring of authority being written by the lead detective ... and it was there for perpetuity
That permanent smear, Amarals book, should have been called THE FINAL STRAW imo
'Now Kate
- Kate had the shock of finding Madeleine missing ....gone
- The realisation that Madeleine was taken, quite probably for unsavoury and painful abuse'
That is your supposition. Neither you or davel are qualified psychiatrists are you ?
As to personal claims, how do we know they are true ?
Likewise with the abduction, ZIP.
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I think I can make a guess at yours Stephen...from the use of capitals you seem to be very angry
Not all all.
Just making a rather obvious salient point. 8((()*/
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Not all all.
Just making a rather obvious salient point. 8((()*/
and now you are in denial
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and now you are in denial
ARE YOU A PSYCHIATRIST ? 8@??)( 8)-)
Or are you a google psychiatrist ?
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ARE YOU A PSYCHIATRIST ? 8@??)( 8)-)
Or are you a google psychiatrist ?
do you know how often medical professionals use google
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I was of the opinion that Dr Amaral elected not to call his "shrink" witness in the end. Nice to see the lightbox is still wired up the same way. One day stephen we will get a helluva shock.......some one will push a button and a different light will come up.
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'Now Kate
- Kate had the shock of finding Madeleine missing ....gone
- The realisation that Madeleine was taken, quite probably for unsavoury and painful abuse'
That is your supposition. Neither you or davel are qualified psychiatrists are you ?
As to personal claims, how do we know they are true ?
Likewise with the abduction, ZIP.
Davel might be.
I am not, but have studied psychology twice at a limited level ... and have a sensitivity to the human race that I fail to find in you and your posts. If I am wrong on that score, I apologise.
Stephen, you are picking flies for the sake of it.
FGS. What is wrong with ..?
'Now Kate
- Kate had the shock of finding Madeleine missing ....gone
- The realisation that Madeleine was taken, quite probably for unsavoury and painful abuse'
It is the accepted thought of all the authorities, bar Amaral and Co. Let me remind you, Amaral made mega bucks out of his book.
I know that you claim to think otherwise, but what I have said echoes what SY and knowledgeable people are saying. People who know far more than you, or me
Just be a sweetie and give it a rest, will you. The stuck needle is becoming a bore
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I was of the opinion that Dr Amaral elected not to call his "shrink" witness in the end. Nice to see the lightbox is still wired up the same way. One day stephen we will get a helluva shock.......some one will push a button and a different light will come up.
was there a shrink witness on the list? I don't know what he could have possibly said...no one could deny the emotional damage caused to Kate by the book..
You claim not to belong to the reds or the blues but your posts show a definite bias
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Some information on PTSD
Posttraumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, is a serious potentially debilitating condition that can occur in people who have experienced or witnessed a natural disaster, serious accident, terrorist incident, sudden death of a loved one, war, violent personal assault such as rape, or other life-threatening events.
Most people who experience such events recover from them, but people with PTSD continue to be severely depressed and anxious for months or even years following the event.
The fact that Maddie may have met a violent death would sadly have triggered this.
Kate's hurting but isn't suicidal
The Sun
By ONLINE REPORTERS
Published: 29 Oct 2007
KATE McCann's angry mother yesterday dismissed reports in the Portuguese media that her daughter was suicidal.
Susan Healy admitted Kate had been under "immense pressure" over daughter Maddie's disappearance – but said: "She would never contemplate ending her life, for two reasons.
"One, she still wants to find Madeleine, and two, for the sake of her other children, Sean and Amelie."
Susan hit out after a Portuguese magazine claimed she was worried about Kate killing herself.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article398418.ece
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Kate's hurting but isn't suicidal
The Sun
By ONLINE REPORTERS
Published: 29 Oct 2007
KATE McCann's angry mother yesterday dismissed reports in the Portuguese media that her daughter was suicidal.
Susan Healy admitted Kate had been under "immense pressure" over daughter Maddie's disappearance – but said: "She would never contemplate ending her life, for two reasons.
"One, she still wants to find Madeleine, and two, for the sake of her other children, Sean and Amelie."
Susan hit out after a Portuguese magazine claimed she was worried about Kate killing herself.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article398418.ece
So another vote for not suicidal
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Kate's hurting but isn't suicidal
The Sun
By ONLINE REPORTERS
Published: 29 Oct 2007
KATE McCann's angry mother yesterday dismissed reports in the Portuguese media that her daughter was suicidal.
Susan Healy admitted Kate had been under "immense pressure" over daughter Maddie's disappearance – but said: "She would never contemplate ending her life, for two reasons.
"One, she still wants to find Madeleine, and two, for the sake of her other children, Sean and Amelie."
Susan hit out after a Portuguese magazine claimed she was worried about Kate killing herself.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article398418.ece
No mention of religion. I thought it was a mortal sin for Catholics to commit or even consider suicide.
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So another vote for not suicidal
Indeed, she just needs to do some extra jogging, chat with a psychotherapist & get over it.
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Indeed, she just needs to do some extra jogging, chat with a psychotherapist & get over it.
Just like that !!!
I hope you never have a tenth of the trauma in your life that kate Mccann has had.
Most haven't.
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So another vote for not suicidal
I don't think she was contemplating suicide, but the idea of the nightmare being ended at last would be a natural thought for her to have at times imo.
When my friend lost her son to cancer, she did once say to me - ''I would never contemplate suicide, but I wouldn't mind if I went to bed tonight and didn't wake up in the morning''. I think Kate was saying something along the same lines. It is a way of expressing a longing for relief from the pain of grief and anxiety - which at the time seems to have no end.
Fortunately it is true to say 'time heals' - although not always completely.
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Indeed, she just needs to do some extra jogging, chat with a psychotherapist & get over it.
Unfortunately plenty of people on here support you..which just goes to show the type of people they are.
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I don't think she was contemplating suicide, but the idea of the nightmare being ended at last would be a natural thought for her to have at times imo.
When my friend lost her son to cancer, she did once say to me - ''I would never contemplate suicide, but I wouldn't mind if I went to bed tonight and didn't wake up in the morning''. I think Kate was saying something along the same lines. It is a way of expressing a longing for relief from the pain of grief and anxiety - which at the time seems to have no end.
Fortunately it is true to say 'time heals' - although not always completely.
Sadly, she will find this harder to do as long as she continues to pursue a high public profile.
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Sadly, she will find this harder to do as long as she continues to pursue a high public profile.
Yes, it is sad, because her best chance of finding her daughter is to keep the case in the spotlight, which also means she has to be in the spotlight somewhat.
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Sadly, she will find this harder to do as long as she continues to pursue a high public profile.
She is forced into high profile.
If she doesn't sue Amaral, then he will milk the cash cow that his book and TV appearances have become ... and continue putting out propaganda against the Mccanns, at every oportunity. Propaganda is dangerous.
Others will also join in milking the same cash cow. All this in my opinion, of course.
If she shrinks into the background as I feel sure she would prefer, then the interest in the Madeleine search will fade.
She feels duty bound, it appears to push herself into the high profile position
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Unfortunately plenty of people on here support you..which just goes to show the type of people they are.
I'm not aware of my being supported davel, What type of people are these supposed supporters exactly?
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Some information on PTSD
Posttraumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, is a serious potentially debilitating condition that can occur in people who have experienced or witnessed a natural disaster, serious accident, terrorist incident, sudden death of a loved one, war, violent personal assault such as rape, or other life-threatening events.
Most people who experience such events recover from them, but people with PTSD continue to be severely depressed and anxious for months or even years following the event.
The fact that Maddie may have met a violent death would sadly have triggered this.
Kate McCann's mental anguish at the loss of her child was not relevant to the case being tried ... and it was not what Alan Pike was being asked to offer an opinion on
The McCann's lawyer, Isobel Duarte, made that very clear when she told Mr Pike, before her questioning began, that the issue was the effect of the Amaral book and the documentary on the McCann family
Therefore, when Alan Pike said that Kate talked of killing herself as an option he was referring to her reaction to Amaral's book, and not to her reaction to losing her child ... indeed, Mr Pike was of the opinion that the McCanns were in 'recuperation mode' prior to Amaral's book
Kate's suicidal thoughts, then, ( according to Mr Pike ) were a direct result of Amaral's book ( which he described as a 'bombshell' )
He certainly made no mention of Kate's suicidal thoughts being associated with post traumatic stress disorder .... indeed, if he had suggested that Kate was suffering from a pre-existing mental illness prior to the publication of Amaral's book, then it would not have been helpful at all with regard to the claims the McCanns are currently making in court
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True Depression.
Me too, I have been there. I am also a qualified Counsellor
and I lost my child. So I have personal experience of all three things you mention.
True depression, and I am not talking about "the blues", is normally caused by NOT one problem, but by a multitude of problems. It is injustice and ongoing unjustified criticism that is often the final straw that brings true depression about.
When my son died, I temporarily lost parts of my memory and generally functioned very badly. Strangely I did not cry, strangely I changed my sleeping position drastically .... and felt dreadful, but I wasn't depressed in the true sense. I have been trully depressed since, due to completely different multiple problems
Despite some mistakes on my behalf, when my boy died everyone supported me and my hubby. I never felt suicidal, I never felt as tho the whole world was against me; I never felt as tho there was no light at the end of the tunnel. I knew that my son, a wonderful part of me had gone ... and would never return ... and I was sad for me and mine, but most especially for my son, who would never grow up and enjoy the wonders of the World.
I would add that I was glad that my son was out of all his pain, which was horrendous. He died like some child you see on "Save the Children" advertisements. Emaciated with that look in his eyes and the little hand stretched out ... but Thank God, no flies and at home in his own bed with loved ones around him.
Now Kate
- Kate had the shock of finding Madeleine missing ....gone
- The realisation that Madeleine was taken, quite probably for unsavoury and painful abuse
- The slowly dawning realisation that the Police Force that she had trusted were NOT looking for Madeleine Frightening and soul destroying
- The shock of being made an Arguido - a suspect Awww
- The shock of being given a kind of Ultimatum: confess to a crime she hadn't done and spend 2 years in jail ... or spend a long period in jail. For something she knew that she had NOT done ! A terrible Injustice ... and not only jail, but the fact that she would be seperated from the family she loves .... and the twins / people in general, would always wonder if she had killed their sister. What a HUGE INJUSTICE had she been jailed.
- The shock of finding out that a, whipped up, vocal group of people were creating myths about her and Gerry. Terrible myths, that amounted to lies, designed to destruct them and their remaining family, untrue tho they were, ... but believed by some. Terrible myths, spread virally, and destroying their very characters Character decimation, undermining them ... so painful .... such injustice
- These myths were magnified with videos etc and put out as video propaganda. There for eternity. Another huge injustice
- The shock of finding that an Investigation group they employed were led by a criminal, who had taken money with little in return. Also valuable early search time gone Hope destroyed.
- The shock and upset of having their home targetted. Gerrys job targetted. Being watched all the time with constant criticism of their every move. Even their charity work undermined and criticized !! Constant negative criticism, so soul destroying
- The shock of having their efforts to find Madeleine destroyed by ignorant ridicule, by Red Herrings, by nasty evil people tearing down posters ... and destroying their carefully planned search efforts and wasting the funds money. Everything they did destroyed. . Hope reduced to nothing by thoughtless and sometimes downright cruel ignoramouses
- The FINAL STRAW ... The shock of having a book written about her and Gerry implicating them in Madeleines disappearance. A book that would stand in black and white for eternity ... for their children to read .... to perhaps destroy their trust in Mum and Dad .... to maybe cause mental illnesses later. ................... And written by the lead Detective, Goncalo Amaral, so it had the ring of authenticity ... to make money. Another vast on-going Injustice. So worrying
Loads more. All this negativity on top of bereavement, character assassination, undermining, propaganda, injustices, people putting the boot in, hope diminishing, etc etc. Quite probably, like me, Kate would have recovered from her depression, without suicidal thoughts, had it not been for all the negative things mentioned above.... but Amarals book would have been the major upset.
No matter that he had no forensic or other evidence, it had the ring of authority being written by the lead detective ... and it was there for perpetuity
That permanent smear, Amarals book, should have been called THE FINAL STRAW imo
This is a very difficult post to address. I initially decided to ignore it, however, after reading a couple more of your posts, I've decided it should be tackled.
Firstly, I am truly sorry for you loss. I have two children. They are my world and just the thought of being without them is soul destroying. I genuinely feel for your pain.
But...
The rest of your post is not based in any kind of fact. It is your opinion, yet you have presented it as true. You have a habit of doing this.
I object to you posting opinion as fact.
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Kate McCann's mental anguish at the loss of her child was not relevant to the case being tried ... and it was not what Alan Pike was being asked to offer an opinion on
The McCann's lawyer, Isobel Duarte, made that very clear when she told Mr Pike, before her questioning began, that the issue was the effect of the Amaral book and the documentary on the McCann family
Therefore, when Alan Pike said that Kate talked of killing herself as an option he was referring to her reaction to Amaral's book, and not to her reaction to losing her child ... indeed, Mr Pike was of the opinion that the McCanns were in 'recuperation mode' prior to Amaral's book
Kate's suicidal thoughts, then, ( according to Mr Pike ) were a direct result of Amaral's book ( which he described as a 'bombshell' )
He certainly made no mention of Kate's suicidal thoughts being associated with post traumatic stress disorder .... indeed, if he had suggested that Kate was suffering from a pre-existing mental illness prior to the publication of Amaral's book, then it would not have been helpful at all with regard to the claims the McCanns are currently making in court
you are quite entitled to believe what you want.
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This is a very difficult post to address. I initially decided to ignore it, however, after reading a couple more of your posts, I've decided it should be tackled.
Firstly, I am truly sorry for you loss. I have two children. They are my world and just the thought of being without them is soul destroying. I genuinely feel for your pain.
But...
The rest of your post is not based in any kind of fact. It is your opinion, yet you have presented it as true. You have a habit of doing this.
I object to you posting opinion as fact.
I am astonished at your response
I think it would have better if you had "ignored" it...a rather strange word to use for such a sad post. I find your criticism extremely harsh and again it typifies to me the mentality of those who unfairly criticise the McCanns.
I would advise posters not to post personal details of their lives because they will not get the sympathy those feelings would warrant in the real world..just nastiness...all my opinion of course
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I am astonished at your response
I think it would have better if you had "ignored" it...a rather strange word to use for such a sad post. I find your criticism extremely harsh and again it typifies to me the mentality of those who unfairly criticise the McCanns.
I would advise posters not to post personal details of their lives because they will not get the sympathy those feelings would warrant in the real world..just nastiness...all my opinion of course
Cariads point was objecting to sadie stating her opinion as fact & how she has a habit of doing so.
Not a criticism of her personal life experiences.
.
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I feel real sympathy for Sadie's loss.
I chose to address the opinions she shared as fact in that post. I could have 'ignored' it all, offered my sympathies and ignored the body of text associated with it, or be true to myself and offer condolences while also objecting to the misrepresentation of opinion as fact.
Sadie is an adult who I believe to be capable of discerning the difference between a criticism of a forum post and a criticism of herself.
Well said and
Dont give in to the rampant guilt tripping!
Since when did discussion of a cold case and voicing opinions turn into abhorent personal attacks on the people who discuss it? And rabidly denouncing anyone who asks questions or has doubts....its desperate and laughable at best
Eta IMO the libel trial is based firmly and majorly on the very same stuff...guilt tripping...
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Well said and
Dont give in to the rampant guilt tripping!
Since when did discussion of a cold case and voicing opinions turn into abhorent personal attacks on the people who discuss it? And rabidly denouncing anyone who asks questions or has doubts....its desperate and laughable at best
Just one of the features of this case - arouse passions and furies like no other.
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Just one of the features of this case - arouse passions and furies like no other.
oh yes.....but who is the architect/s?
>@@(*&)
Eta
Or what..
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oh yes.....but who is the architect/s?
>@@(*&)
If we knew that, the case might be close to solving.
Despite what people might say to the contrary, there is an orchestrated effort to silence anti-McCann opinion.
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If we knew that, the case might be close to solving.
Despite what people might say to the contrary, there is an orchestrated effort to silence anti-McCann opinion.
And disinform.
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If we knew that, the case might be close to solving.
Despite what people might say to the contrary, there is an orchestrated effort to silence anti-McCann opinion.
Yes, an extraordinary amount of effort
None of its worked much either
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And disinform.
Under the guise of FACT @)(++(*
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Davel might be.
I am not, but have studied psychology twice at a limited level ... and have a sensitivity to the human race that I fail to find in you and your posts. If I am wrong on that score, I apologise.
Stephen, you are picking flies for the sake of it.
FGS. What is wrong with ..?
'Now Kate
- Kate had the shock of finding Madeleine missing ....gone
- The realisation that Madeleine was taken, quite probably for unsavoury and painful abuse'
It is the accepted thought of all the authorities, bar Amaral and Co. Let me remind you, Amaral made mega bucks out of his book.
I know that you claim to think otherwise, but what I have said echoes what SY and knowledgeable people are saying. People who know far more than you, or me
Just be a sweetie and give it a rest, will you. The stuck needle is becoming a bore
The mccann supporter mantra.
Attack the poster personally.
Your lack of logic in defense of these two parents never ceases to amaze me and other posters.
Yes sadie, it isn't just me who can't comprehend your and your fellow supporters behaviour.
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Davel might be.
I am not, but have studied psychology twice at a limited level ... and have a sensitivity to the human race that I fail to find in you and your posts. If I am wrong on that score, I apologise.
Stephen, you are picking flies for the sake of it.
FGS. What is wrong with ..?
'Now Kate
- Kate had the shock of finding Madeleine missing ....gone
- The realisation that Madeleine was taken, quite probably for unsavoury and painful abuse'
It is the accepted thought of all the authorities, bar Amaral and Co. Let me remind you, Amaral made mega bucks out of his book.
I know that you claim to think otherwise, but what I have said echoes what SY and knowledgeable people are saying. People who know far more than you, or me
Just be a sweetie and give it a rest, will you. The stuck needle is becoming a bore
Why should that matter to you?
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Sadie.
You talk about 'compassion', but what you really mean is to ignore what the mccanns did, and give them unconditional support.
Yet you and your ilk mercilessly criticize Amaral, who merely tried to do his job.
Also, of course km, was prepared to 'forgive' an abductor, for whom no proof exists, but her hatred of Amaral clearly knows no bounds.
Then of course she and her 'husband' ,claim to be devout Catholics.
You couldn't make this up. 8(8-))
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Sadie.
You talk about 'compassion', but what you really mean is to ignore what the mccanns did, and give them unconditional support.
Yet you and your ilk mercilessly criticize Amaral, who merely tried to do his job.
Also, of course km, was prepared to 'forgive' an abductor, for whom no proof exists, but her hatred of Amaral clearly knows no bounds.
Then of course she and her 'husband' ,claim to be devout Catholics.
You couldn't make this up. 8(8-))
but you arte making it up...since when is it a policemans job to write a book about an ongoing case. don't forget he was sacked from the case by his superiors
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Kate's hurting but isn't suicidal
The Sun
By ONLINE REPORTERS
Published: 29 Oct 2007
KATE McCann's angry mother yesterday dismissed reports in the Portuguese media that her daughter was suicidal.
Susan Healy admitted Kate had been under "immense pressure" over daughter Maddie's disappearance – but said: "She would never contemplate ending her life, for two reasons.
"One, she still wants to find Madeleine, and two, for the sake of her other children, Sean and Amelie."
Susan hit out after a Portuguese magazine claimed she was worried about Kate killing herself.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article398418.ece
Wouldn't that be before Amaral's book came out?
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In order to answer this question, you have to know how a libel trial works. In Portugal, the main objective of the court is to find the truth not to convict someone. For example, in the USA, the prosecutor's goal is to convict the defendent, that's all, they are not interested in finding the truth of what actually happened.
In the pretrial meetings between the lawyers and the judge, questions are drawn up and which must be answered in order for the judge to come to his/her verdict. Then the lawyers must then find witnesses who can answer these questions. One question could be "Did the amount of information coming in to the PJ diminish after the release of the book?" Then the lawyer for the defense calls someone, obviously from the police, who can answer that question. In the questioning and the cross examination, the lawyers are not allowed to deviate from the object of this question. If they do so, the judge or the other lawyers can call them to attention. It is very rigid how a court hearing is carried out in this country.
As for Alan Pike, one of the questions was obviously about the parents mental state and he was called by the plaintiffs because of his "qualifications" and contact with the McCanns. It is not the practice here to call other witnesses to contradict other testimonies, it is not a confrontational system. I believe, however, that in the closing arguments, the lawyers can bring up contradictions, etc.
The mother of Madeleine McCann spoke of killing herself after a book by the Portuguese detective leading the case accused her and her husband of a cover-up, her counsellor told a court yesterday.
Alan Pike merely reported what Kate had told him ....
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Wouldn't that be before Amaral's book came out?
About 9 months before (or thereabouts)
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The mother of Madeleine McCann spoke of killing herself after a book by the Portuguese detective leading the case accused her and her husband of a cover-up, her counsellor told a court yesterday.
Alan Pike merely reported what Kate had told him ....
But he tried to sell himself as a qualified psychologist and he isn't one.
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But he tried to sell himself as a qualified psychologist and he isn't one.
Where?
The mother of Madeleine McCann spoke of killing herself after a book by the Portuguese detective leading the case accused her and her husband of a cover-up, her counsellor told a court yesterday.
Kate McCann spoke of “not being around any more” and of taking her life after Detective Gonçalo Amaral accused her and her husband Gerry of faking an abduction after Madeleine had died.
Alan Pike has counselled Mrs McCann since her three-year-old daughter vanished at the Praia da Luz resort in the Algarve in 2007. Yesterday he told a libel hearing in Lisbon’s civil court that the book and subsequent film which claimed that Madeleine died in their villa had left her “devastated”.
Madeleine’s parents, both 45, from Rothley, Leicestershire, are suing Mr Amaral for £1 million over allegations in his book Maddie: The Truth of the Lie. The book was published in July 2008, three days after the McCanns had their status as “arguidos” — suspects — lifted. Mr Amaral also accused them of cashing in on funds raised by the Find Madeleine campaign.
“To understand the effect of the publication of the book and the following broadcast of the documentary, it’s important to understand Kate and Gerry’s recovery process in the 12 months after Madeleine’s abduction. About a year on, they were recovering from the most traumatic experience of their lives,” said Mr Pike, a clinical partner for the Centre for Crisis Psychology in Yorkshire.
Mr Pike, who was given special dispensation by Mrs McCann to disclose details of their counselling sessions, said that the speed with which the book was published after the investigation was closed had particularly shocked Mrs McCann. It “suggested there had been a relationship between them [Mr Amaral and the publisher] before the case was closed”.
“When they learnt about the contents of the book and its conclusions, this caused even more distress.” Mr Pike said that in a counselling session on 17 September 2008, Mrs McCann told him “that she had spent many days in tears, sobbing at the injustice of people who should be helping Madeleine”. There were times, she had told him, “that she felt so angry at Amaral and his friends” — including the publisher — “that she couldn’t get through the day”.
“When Kate saw the film, I remember her being further devastated,” he told the court. He described the couple as “angry, disappointed and frustrated” as well as helpless.
The case continues
Alan Pike would have been a bit of a chump to claim something not substantiated in anything about him readily available on line:
Summary
My experience is predominantly in the field of supporting employers and their people at times of stress and trauma, by delivering a range of support over a short period of time, focussed on them returning to normal routines as quickly as possible. This ensures a rapid recovery, minimal disruption to the organisation and promotes the the long term psychological health of the individuals concerned. CCP work accross a range of industries including retail, logistics, transport, energy, travel and tourism, leisure and hotels, and construction.
Specialties:- Face to face clinical support
- Telephone based counselling
- Training/preparation of those responding to trauma at work
- Mediation
- Online/E mail counselling.
- Flexibility to deliver support worldwide across all industries
Experience
CCP
Clinical Partner & Trauma Consultant
CCP
September 2004 – Present (9 years 5 months)
I am currently a Partner at CCP, a leading UK company who specialise in providing psychological care and employee assistance to orgainisations, their employees, and their customers.
(Open)4 recommendations, including:
Mike Wright
Mike Wright
Director at Iliad Solution
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Amy Barron
HR & Payroll Manager at Cheshire Constabulary - Cheshire Police
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Clinical Consultant
CCP
September 2004 – October 2005 (1 year 2 months)
Clinical Consultant delivering trauma care to the employees and customers of CCP's wide range of clients.
Child Protection Social Worker
Local Government
September 1999 – August 2004 (5 years)
My role involved the protection of children in South Manchester in and area team, working with families experiencing domestic violence, child abuse, and fostering and adoption.
Skills & Expertise
Most endorsed for...
13Counseling Psychology
8Stress Management
8Psychology
4EAP
4Stress
4Training
3Coaching
3Crisis Management
2Personal Development
2Staff Development
Alan also knows about...
2Workshop Facilitation
1Leadership Development
1Mediation
1Change Management
1Interviews
1NLP
1Management Development
1Teamwork
1Culture Change
1Psychotherapy
1Healthcare
1Succession Planning
1Team Building
1Training Delivery
1Public Speaking
Personally, I don't think he 'sold' himself as anything he isn't
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Where?
Personally, I don't think he 'sold' himself as anything he isn't
In court
Guerra & Paz lawyer, What exactly is your profession ?
Alan Pike answers that he is a crisis councellor
GP lawyer asks whether he is a psychologist
( note here that Mr Pike does not answer the question directly )
Alan Pike says that he has some competencies in psychology ( psychology was one element in his degree )
GP lawyer repeats the question ... "Are you a psychologist ?"
Alan Pike finally answers the question ... "No"
It should be mentioned that Kate McCann, in her book, frequently refers to Alan Pike as a 'trauma psychologist' ( indeed, he is referenced as such in the book's index )
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Why on earth would Kate McCann need to be in regular contact with a psychiatrist? She is not suffering from mental illness. Surely you mean psychologist?
Psychology is the study of people: how they think, how they act, react and interact. Psychology is concerned with all aspects of behaviour and the thoughts, feelings and motivation underlying such behaviour.
Psychiatry is the study of mental disorders and their diagnosis, management and prevention. Psychiatrists are medical doctors who have qualified in psychiatry. They often combine a broad general caseload alongside an area of special expertise and research.
Alan Pike is neither a psychiatrist nor a psychologist.
Kate McCann could well have been in need of a psychiatrist for various reasons. Firstly there is the claim that she was suicidal and suffering from depression. A psychologist or counselor would have been of assistance in dealing with these problems, but only a psychiatrist would have been able to prescribe medication.
Secondly, it would have been prudent from a legal perspective to have built up a relationship with a medical professional (i.e. a psychiatrist) who would be able to give full testimony in court to Kate McCann's mental state. The findings of a forensic evaluation could have cleared several questions up.
It is true that it is understandable that KM continued to go to Alan Pike, rather than go to someone else, because a relationship had been built up with him over the years and she obviously felt comfortable with him.
But the point still stands that as a counsellor with a social studies degree, he is significantly less well qualified to give an assessment of KM's mental health than a qualified psychologist or a psychiatrist.
I myself studied psychology for several years as part of a social studies degree, in the psychology department of a prestigious institution, and I would not in any way shape or form consider myself able to give anything but the broadest assessment of a particular individual's situation. You have all heard my comments from the peanut gallery on this forum.
Alan Pike admittedly has many years as a counselor behind him. But he is still far from the best person for the job, and more to the point a strange choice of witness in a court case instigated by the McCanns on a grave and complex matter.
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I have seen him referred to as an expert witness but that is not the case. An expert witness comes to a court as an independent witness with expert opinion on some subject or other relevant to the case in hand. Mr Pike is a family witness who has merely testified as to the effect the book and the video had on the McCann family. He is obviously not an independent witness and has been called to testify by the plaintiffs in order to support their allegations.
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I have seen him referred to as an expert witness but that is not the case. An expert witness comes to a court as an independent witnesses with expert opinion on some subject or other relevant to the case in hand. Mr Pike is a family witness who has merely testified as to the effect the book and the video had on the McCann family. He is obviously not an independent witness and has been called to testify by the plaintiffs in order to support their allegations.
That is an important point - he is not an 'expert witness' according to the legal definition.
But KM could have benefited nonetheless with her own personal expert present to testify accurately as to the develpment of her own mental health situation over the years.
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I find it absolutely absurd that posters on this forum feel they are in a position to tell two doctors that there choice of medical treatment was wrong.
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I find it absolutely absurd that posters on this forum feel they are in a position to tell two doctors that there choice of medical treatment was wrong.
I had a friend who was a Clinical Psychologist and was not a great believer in depression, she unfortunately had a major breakdown and has suffered serious depression every since.
Just because someone is a professional does not make them incapable of being wrong, even in areas close to there specialism.
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I find it absolutely absurd that posters on this forum feel they are in a position to tell two doctors that there choice of medical treatment was wrong.
They havn't been questioned about their choice of medical treatment ... they have been questioned about their choice of Alan Pike as a witness to their mental health
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They havn't been questioned about their choice of medical treatment ... they have been questioned about their choice of Alan Pike as a witness to their mental health
Do you suffer from a short memory? you yourself were suggesting kate needed to see a psychiatrist, so were several other posters
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I would be a mental wreck if someone had taken my child, i'd need more than a bloody psychiatrist. 8)><(
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The Manchester Metropolitan University
BA (Hons) Social Science, Psychology
I have one question:
If he had a degree in psychology how come he is not a psychologyst?
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The Manchester Metropolitan University
BA (Hons) Social Science, Psychology
I have one question:
If he had a degree in psychology how come he is not a psychologyst?
He doesnt have a degree in psychology and even if he did , a first degree is not enough to practice as such, you need further studies....he never mentioned any either in his witness testimony in court, or his professional Linkedin account....anyway he said so himself that he isnt one.....
Edited
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He doesnt have a degree in psychology and even if he did , a first degree is not enough to practice as such, you need further studies....he said so hmself that he isnt one.....
And no one on this forum knows if he has completed any further studies. Further studies will not necessarily mean further formal qualifications...Fact
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And no one on this forum knows if he has completed any further studies. Further studies will not necessarily mean further formal qualifications...Fact
Did he have records from 2009 for the court?
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Did he have records from 2009 for the court?
no idea ...but why is that important...amaral hasnt challenged his evidence
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And no one on this forum knows if he has completed any further studies. Further studies will not necessarily mean further formal qualifications...Fact
Everytime someone shouts "Fact!" I reach for my machine gun 8(>((
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Everytime someone shouts "Fact!" I reach for my machine gun 8(>((
ok 8(>((
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no idea ...but why is that important...amaral hasnt challenged his evidence
The lawyer for the publishers, Guerra & Paz, challenged Alan Pike's professional credentials in court .. and, thereby, his authority ( or, more precisely, his lack thereof ) to speak on the matter of Kate McCann's mental health
It was a point well made
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The lawyer for the publishers, Guerra & Paz, challenged Alan Pike's professional credentials in court .. and, thereby, his authority ( or, more precisely, his lack thereof ) to speak on the matter of Kate McCann's mental health
It was a point well made
and what did the judge think of his testimony...facts please not your opinion
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A large number of people in the UK will experience suicidal thoughts each year, and many more will suffer from depression. A fraction of these will ever see a psychiatrist. I believe something like one in four people in the UK will experience mental illness (including anxiety and depression) at some point in their lives. Most of these who actually seek help will be unlikely to get further than their GP.
As for seeing a psychologist (not a psychiatrist), even on the NHS, a GP's referral for someone suffering with depression is likely to be to a therapist who the surgery knows and trusts, but most of the time this will not be a psychologist.
If someone reports depression to a GP, they would of course be asked whether they had suicidal thoughts, amongst other things. Importantly, having suicidal thoughts does not actually mean the person is a risk to themselves. Only in extreme cases would a healthcare professional take immediate action, and this would, if there was a genuine threat that the individual would kill themselves, involve sectioning them. An incredibly extreme option.
Kate McCann was provided with a trauma expert immediately by a third party (Mark Warner). She obviously built a good relationship with him because she kept using him. There was no need for her to be referred to a psychologist, a GP or a psychiatrist. If she had a good relationship with her therapist, why would she move onto a different one?
Indeed, Victoria. It makes sense that she would continue with the person with whom she had a good relationship.
I have been in the states for a while and perhaps I am being influenced by how things work here. People go to psychiatrists, psychologists, and other counselors very readily. This is arranged directly or via the person's medical insurance company as obviously there is no equivalent of the NHS.
I myself go to a psychologist, not for any serious problem, but simply to have someone with whom to discuss life events from a psychological point of view.
I still feel however that if she was truly suicidal then referring her to a psychologist expert in that area would be a prudent thing for any counselor of her's to advise.
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The Manchester Metropolitan University
BA (Hons) Social Science, Psychology
I have one question:
If he had a degree in psychology how come he is not a psychologyst?
A person with a law degree is not a lawyer. For that , they need to take a bar exam or go through some kind of internship post - university (depending on the country and legal system). A doctor likewise has a period of residency.
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and what did the judge think of his testimony...facts please not your opinion
I have no idea what the Judge made of it
I was remarking on the 'fact' that the lawyer for the publishers, Guerra & Paz, questioned Alan Pike's professional credentials in court and, thereby, his authority to speak in a professional capacity as to Kate McCann's mental health
That she made a very good job of it, is, indeed, just my personal opinion
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The mccann supporter mantra.
Attack the poster personally.
Your lack of logic in defense of these two parents never ceases to amaze me and other posters.
Yes sadie, it isn't just me who can't comprehend your and your fellow supporters behaviour.
Oh, and by the way, Stephen, we are all waiting for your ideas on how the Mccanns managed to achieve what you seem to be pointing to. We have been waiting for about 9 months now. Why the delay?
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Oh, and by the way, Stephen, we are all waiting for your ideas on how the Mccanns managed to achieve what you seem to be pointing to. We have been waiting for about 9 months now. Why the delay?
It is not appropriate for you to taunt a member of this forum in order to run back to other forums you are affiliated to, in order to ridicule them
If you do not respect this forum why do you post here ?
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Oh, and by the way, Stephen, we are all waiting for your ideas on how the Mccanns managed to achieve what you seem to be pointing to. We have been waiting for about 9 months now. Why the delay?
If you've been waiting that long, a bit longer won't hurt you 8(0(*
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A person with a law degree is not a lawyer. For that , they need to take a bar exam or go through some kind of internship post - university (depending on the country and legal system). A doctor likewise has a period of residency.
Are you assuming that Mr pike has had no further training? The very fact that Kate and Garry chose to carry on being treated by him is a great testament to his talents...unless of course you and others on this forum know better...which it seems some think they do
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Are you assuming that Mr pike has had no further training? The very fact that Kate and Garry chose to carry on being treated by him is a great testament to his talents...unless of course you and others on this forum know better...which it seems some think they do
So following that logic, all the private investigators that the Mccans have used are the best in their field? Well, Kate and Gerry chose to use them!
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So following that logic, all the private investigators that the Mccans have used are the best in their field? Well, Kate and Gerry chose to use them!
Well let's face it, how dare we deny their brillinance. @)(++(*
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So following that logic, all the private investigators that the Mccans have used are the best in their field? Well, Kate and Gerry chose to use them!
No you are making an assumption...never said that..and if you cant see the diferrence theres no hope of you understanding anything
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No you are making an assumption...never said that..and if you cant see the diferrence theres no hope of you understanding anything
Just dismissing me doesn't actually address the point I was making does it? Why don't you answer for all the other forum users or guest viewing this thread how aren't as stupid as me?
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Just dismissing me doesn't actually address the point I was making does it? Why don't you answer for all the other forum users or guest viewing this thread how aren't as stupid as me?
I didn't think the point needed addressing it is so obvious..but as you cant see it then I will..
THE McCanns are doctors...for medical help they know exactly who to go to...does that make any sense
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When a person is depressed they visit a doctor. A doctor is trained in the treatment of depression...has some expertise..the doctor may refer you for speacialist treatment...the doctor is trained in who he should refer you to...
As far as I am aware doctors have no training in choosing which detectives to use when a child has disappeared
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So following that logic, all the private investigators that the Mccans have used are the best in their field? Well, Kate and Gerry chose to use them!
The McCanns didn't 'choose' anyone. Alan Pike was brought in by M Warner. It's quite obvious he was of immense help to them - and IIRC it was due to his counselling that they were able to begin to look at things more positively.
The McCanns would know nothing about Private Investigators and would have to take advice from others on that score - which would inevitably involve a certain amount of 'trust' on their part that the advice was reliable.
They had no way of knowing what was going to happen in the future regarding PI's when they employed them. How could they?
There is no comparison between the two IMO.
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The McCanns didn't 'choose' anyone. Alan Pike was brought in by M Warner. It's quite obvious he was of immense help to them - and IIRC it was due to his counselling that they were able to begin to look at things more positively.
The McCanns would know nothing about Private Investigators and would have to take advice from others on that score - which would inevitably involve a certain amount of 'trust' on their part that the advice was reliable.
They had no way of knowing what was going to happen in the future regarding PI's when they employed them. How could they?
There is no comparison between the two IMO.
So they chose neither Alan Pike nor their investigators and had to take both on trust, yet there is no comparison?
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So they chose neither Alan Pike nor their investigators and had to take both on trust, yet there is no comparison?
if you look at my post 167 I say they continued to use Pike...because he was so good no doubt..If you cant see the difference between the two then it does explain why you have everything so wrong
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So they chose neither Alan Pike nor their investigators and had to take both on trust, yet there is no comparison?
There is no comparison between a trauma counsellor and Private Investigators IMO. As there is no link - I can't see what there is to compare.
Alan Pike was chosen by MW - but as it happened he turned out to be the best choice for the McCanns.
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Of course one could speculate that Mrs McCann's anxiety and 'suicidal thoughts' upon the release of Mr Amaral's book were due Mr Amaral's findings being close to the truth? Maybe?
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Of course one could speculate that Mrs McCann's anxiety and 'suicidal thoughts' upon the release of Mr Amaral's book were due Mr Amaral's findings being close to the truth? Maybe?
No I wouldn't. I would put it down to the fact that Amaral put into words his own theory, hinting that the McCann's drugged their daughter faked an abduction and disposed of her body.
It is different to being accused in private, in a book it is being distributed to the public in different countries. Written by the co-ordinator of the case, a person they would regard as a truthful, upstanding citizen.
Who would they believe? the parents? who Amaral hinted had been in Portugal for swinging, drunk to excess, drugged their children to make them sleep?
How would you react if that had been you?
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No I wouldn't. I would put it down to the fact that Amaral put into words his own theory, hinting that the McCann's drugged their daughter faked an abduction and disposed of her body.
It is different to being accused in private, in a book it is being distributed to the public in different countries. Written by the co-ordinator of the case, a person they would regard as a truthful, upstanding citizen.
Who would the believe? the parents? who Amaral hinted had been in Portugal for swinging, drunk to excess, drugged their children to make them sleep?
How would you react if that had been you?
It wouldn't happen to me because regardless of how much I beat my children, I never leave them unattended inside holiday apartments,.
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... I never leave them unattended inside holiday apartments,.
They were left attended at very regular intervals.
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They left the children, very bad decision. Don't think for one minute that Amaral didn't milk that one either. He made it well known that they left the children, then brought in his hints at swinging, drugging and fake abduction. After all the public were already berating the couple for leaving the children lets add on a few more accusations, if they are bad enough to leave the children, they must be bad enough to drug and fake an abduction surely?
Nice juicy gossipy book, about the very evil foreign couple. That type of book would sell no trouble.
Now Amaral drove his children in his car when he was drunk, what if I wrote a book saying because he did this, he doesn't care at all about his children, and most probably beat them and starved them and left them alone too. How would that go down do you think?
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A mental health nurse is a CPN. A community psychiatric nurse. It's a four year degree consisting of lectures, course work and placement.
I'm glad you're doing better buzz. As someone previously pointed out, 1 in 4 adults in the UK will suffer a mental health issue at some point in their lives. It still carries some stigma though and I'm pleased that so many feel able to discuss their brushes with the Black Dog.
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Black dog
I think it might have been Winston Churchill who coined that expression.
He certainly used it.
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Davel, for the first time I actually agree with you regarding treatment. @)(++(*
I myself have suffered from suicidal thoughts in the past without actually attempting suicide. Without too much detail, it began with the breakdown of my marriage and was then compounded by a debilitating injury. Although nowhere near on the scale of events in PDL it was still a traumatic time for me. At first I wasn't too bad but the depression slowly got hold of me and pretty soon I was unrecognisable.
My first port of call was my GP who at the time had seen quite a lot of me because of the injury. He was in a good position to make judgement as to whether I was depressed or not and as such he prescribed anti depressants. As the depression continued and most likely before the anti depressants could do there job, my thoughts became increasingly darker to the point whereby I felt in crisis, having began to consider suicide on a frequent basis. I found a local number for the 24 hour crisis management team and realising I was struggling with my thoughts I rang the number and opened up to them, begging them to take me away. I wanted to be hospitalised either by being sectioned or another way because I just needed to somehow take all the depression away. Thankfully they calmed me down over the phone and that night nothing further happened. The next day I also opened up to my GP and he quickly realised the gravity of the situation and referred me for an urgent mental health assessment. In his opinion it had escalated to a bout of severe depression.
At no point was I seen by a psychiatrist. The mental health assessment was performed by a mental health nurse and it was agreed that I had severe depression with mild suicidal thoughts. The procedure was to change my anti depressants for a different type and arrange CBT counselling and the mental health team would remain accessible to me should I need them.
Shortly after the assessment I joined an online forum (one of the old MSN groups) that sadly no longer exists and I would say this became a form of online counselling. The forum consisted of many knowledgeable and supportive people that were only too willing to help. Through a combination of the counselling, both physical and my own online version I began to turn things around and in the end a psychiatrist was not needed.
As far as I am concerned my own suicidal thoughts were genuine. By the way I do not know what qualifications the mental health nurse had but she did not describe herself as a psychiatrist.
Thankfully it was a long time ago now but given the context of the discussion I felt it was important to share my own experience with you all.
eta
There are a lot of similarities to my own experience in the link I have provided below.
http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/suicide-risk-assessment-and-threats-of-suicide (http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/suicide-risk-assessment-and-threats-of-suicide)
Very sorry to hear about your problems but glad to see you have made a lot of progress. unfortunately it is far easier and less expensive for GPs to dish out antidepressants.In some people one of the side effects of anti depressants is suicidal thoughts. Much better is counselling and you should have been offered it...fortunately you found help...good luck
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A mental health nurse is a CPN. A community psychiatric nurse. It's a four year degree consisting of lectures, course work and placement.
I'm glad you're doing better buzz. As someone previously pointed out, 1 in 4 adults in the UK will suffer a mental health issue at some point in their lives. It still carries some stigma though and I'm pleased that so many feel able to discuss their brushes with the Black Dog.
I'm no black dog, I'm the man in black.
Johnny Cash, Man In Black.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iXRmJyIyJbM
I hurt myself today to see if I still feel.
Johnny Cash, Hurt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur8j4xWe_44&feature=player_detailpage
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Thanks Cariad. So I guess I was in fact actually seen by a psychiatrist but the treatment was medication and counselling.
Once again I agree Davel. Although my own doctor was initially reluctant to prescribe anti depressants I suspect the ones that he initially prescribed as you quite rightly suggest, contributed to the suicidal thoughts. Counselling did it for me but I believe it was also aided (eventually) by the anti depressants.
No, a psychiatrist is a medical doctor who has gone on to specialise in psychiatry, a psychiatric nurse has a degree in psychiatric nursing.
Many ssri's and snri's take 2 to 4 weeks to be affective. There are many side affects, however, for some people, medication can make a real difference.
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I'm no black dog, I'm the man in black.
Johnny Cash, Man In Black.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iXRmJyIyJbM
I hurt myself today to see if I still feel.
Johnny Cash, Hurt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur8j4xWe_44&feature=player_detailpage
I'm a massive fan of The Man in Black. I saw him in Glastonbury when I was 16 and have been hooked ever since. However, on this occasion, I perfer the 9 inch nails version. I believe it's the original.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htmKZKR7oyc
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They left the children, very bad decision. Don't think for one minute that Amaral didn't milk that one either. He made it well known that they left the children, then brought in his hints at swinging, drugging and fake abduction. After all the public were already berating the couple for leaving the children lets add on a few more accusations, if they are bad enough to leave the children, they must be bad enough to drug and fake an abduction surely?
Nice juicy gossipy book, about the very evil foreign couple. That type of book would sell no trouble.
Now Amaral drove his children in his car when he was drunk, what if I wrote a book saying because he did this, he doesn't care at all about his children, and most probably beat them and starved them and left them alone too. How would that go down do you think?
All very well but one of his daughters hasn't disappeared in suspicious circumstances, that the big difference!
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All very well but one of his daughters hasn't disappeared in suspicious circumstances, that the big difference!
I wish to be associated with remark old chap