UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: buzz on May 18, 2014, 03:52:41 PM
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Gerry states in his 10th May interview that he found out about Tannerman at 1am on 4th May when Russell told him and yet he was present when the written timeline was created which makes clear reference to Tannerman.
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What time was the written timeline you are referring to written?
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Are you suggesting they were written after 1am?
No, I'm asking you what time the timeline was written. You said Gerry said he found out about Tannerman at 1am 4th May (3 hours after his daughter went missing)which was a lie (according to you) , so what time was the timeline written?
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What time was the written timeline you are referring to written?
The two timelines written on the cover of the Maddie's colouring book, I suppose. It was made during that fateful night, after the discovery of Maddie's dissapearance.
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No, I'm asking you what time the timeline was written. You said Gerry said he found out about Tannerman at 1am 4th May (3 hours after his daughter went missing)which was a lie (according to you) , so what time was the timeline written?
In his rogatory interview Russell Obrien states that whilst he was writing out the timeline one of the PJ officers present said that he wanted it ( the piece of paper the timeline written on )
Kate says in her book that the PJ officers did not arrive until just after 1.00am
If that was the case, then it appears the timeline was written some time after 1.00am leaving it possible for Gerry McCann not to have known about 'Tannerman' until that time
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In his rogatory interview Russell Obrien states that whilst he was writing out the timeline one of the PJ officers present said that he wanted it ( the piece of paper the timeline written on )
Kate says in her book that the PJ officers did not arrive until just after 1.00am
If that was the case, then it appears the timeline was written some time after 1.00am leaving it possible for Gerry McCann not to have known about 'Tannerman' until that time
I think that sounds feasible.
Was it not the case that they would have been searching immediately Madeleine was found to be gone, not working out timelines until later?
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I think that sounds feasible.
Was it not the case that they would have been searching immediately Madeleine was found to be gone, not working out timelines until later?
What time do you think Tanner and O'Brien remembered her second visit to the apartment?
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What time do you think Tanner and O'Brien remembered her second visit to the apartment?
I think you have lost me there, Peter.
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I think you have lost me there, Peter.
There is no mention in either timeline written on the night of Tanner's second visit to her apartment. The timelines were written by her partner O'Brien
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Answer IMO might be: In 5A a short time after PJ arrival when JT was summoned to 5A to speak to PJ ?
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From 2008 statement JT
Reply: “... when the PJ came, they came to get me to talk to them ..."
4078 “So when you went into Gerry and Kate’s apartment who else was there?”
Reply “... I think Russell came with me and there was Sylvie who was the translator. ... a PJ chap was sitting on the, by the table. And there was Gerry who was standing by the, the bedroom door”.
4078 “And how was Gerry at that point?”
Reply “... obviously distraught. And I think it was quite hard for me to be saying at that, you know, looking in his face and to be explaining what I’d seen, at that point was quite hard ..."
4078 “And what was Gerry’s reaction to what you said?”
Reply “Well I don’t even know whether he took it in, I mean, he was just, he was, you know, obviously just standing there looking absolutely horrified ...”.
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I think that sounds feasible.
Was it not the case that they would have been searching immediately Madeleine was found to be gone, not working out timelines until later?
I don't think it is feasible, personally
It's what the tapas group say happened, and without evidence to the contrary we have to accept the possibility that Gerry McCann was not made aware of the man Jane saw until after 1.00am that morning
Is it feasible though ?
Is it feasible that members of the group kept that crucial information from Gerry McCann for over three hours ?
I just don't think it is
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I don't think it is feasible, personally
It's what the tapas group say happened, and without evidence to the contrary we have to accept the possibility that Gerry McCann was not made aware of the man Jane saw until after 1.00am that morning
Is it feasible though ?
Is it feasible that members of the group kept that crucial information from Gerry McCann for over three hours ?
I just don't think it is
I think it's perfectly feasible once you remove 'hindsight' from the equation. Everyone was in massive shock - no-one would be thinking calmly for a long time - and for all they knew Madeleine could be found at any minute. They could see what a terrible state Kate and Gerry were in - so why add to such anquish and terror - when it may not have been necessary. They did not have the benefit of hindsight that we have.
So easy to be wise after the event.
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Yes please, whatever you do, don't make any allowances for the McCanns or their friends to be in a state of shock or for events that night to have been chaotic, disorganised, confused, frantic. That just won't do!
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I think it's perfectly feasible once you remove 'hindsight' from the equation. Everyone was in massive shock - no-one would be thinking calmly for a long time - and for all they knew Madeleine could be found at any minute. They could see what a terrible state Kate and Gerry were in - so why add to such anquish and terror - when it may not have been necessary. They did not have the benefit of hindsight that we have.
So easy to be wise after the event.
I'm sorry Benice but you are not using logic but simply believing what you want to believe.
By shortly after ten several of the friends knew about Tanner's sighting yet none of them :
A. Mentioned the sighting to Gerry. In fact as Gerry was on the same street at the same time wouldn't the logical thing to do ( and remember most of his friends were doctors working in a high pressure environment ) was ask Gerry if he'd also seen the man ? If he had then it would be fairly obvious it wasn't Madeleine and the sighting could, at a stroke, have been ruled out. So why wasn't the question asked ?
B. Searched in the direction that Tanner said the man was going in
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I'm sorry Benice but you are not using logic but simply believing what you want to believe.
By shortly after ten several of the friends knew about Tanner's sighting yet none of them :
A. Mentioned the sighting to Gerry. In fact as Gerry was on the same street at the same time wouldn't the logical thing to do ( and remember most of his friends were doctors working in a high pressure environment ) was ask Gerry if he'd also seen the man ? If he had then it would be fairly obvious it wasn't Madeleine and the sighting could, at a stroke, have been ruled out. So why wasn't the question asked ?
B. Searched in the direction that Tanner said the man was going in
You have missed the point completely. People under great stress as a result of a huge shock do not think logically.
The fact that they are doctors is completely irrelevant. They are not policemen and the only people who one would expect to behave logically and calmly at such a time would be the police. However, the GNR behaved similarly to the McCanns and went through 5A seaching for Madeline - instead of cordoning the place off.
The McCanns and their friends can be excused for reacting like parents in shock - because that is what they all were. The police's reaction cannot be excused IMO.
Do you really think that if a Fireman turned up to a blaze to find it was his own house and his own children were inside he would be able to behave in exactly the same way as any other blaze involving children which he had attended - and that he would not be greatly affected? It's a preposterous suggestion imo.
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You have missed the point completely. People under great stress as a result of a huge shock do not think logically.
The fact that they are doctors is completely irrelevant. They are not policemen and the only people who one would expect to behave logically and calmly at such a time would be the police. However, the GNR behaved similarly to the McCanns and went through 5A seaching for Madeline - instead of cordoning the place off.
The McCanns and their friends can be excused for reacting like parents in shock - because that is what they all were. The police's reaction cannot be excused IMO.
Do you really think that if a Fireman turned up to a blaze to find it was his own house and his own children were inside he would be able to behave in exactly the same way as any other blaze involving children which he had attended - and that he would not be greatly affected? It's a preposterous suggestion imo.
The fact that they were doctor's is not completely relevant and as Gerry observed in a recent interview, many of their actions were indeed driven by their training in emergency situations.
"SF: But now when you look back, you realise it could be... could have been dangerous, for Sean and Amelie, to let them behind? No? No?
Gerry McCann: I don't think that... I don't think that's right and certainly in medical training, the first thing you get taught, in an emergency situation, is to call for help. That's part of... that gets drummed into you."
As to their friends, I thought most didn't know the McCanns or their children very well so it would seem to follow would be less emotionally involved and rather more clear thinking than say the Paynes.
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The fact that they were doctor's is not completely relevant and as Gerry observed in a recent interview, many of their actions were indeed driven by their training in emergency situations.
"SF: But now when you look back, you realise it could be... could have been dangerous, for Sean and Amelie, to let them behind? No? No?
Gerry McCann: I don't think that... I don't think that's right and certainly in medical training, the first thing you get taught, in an emergency situation, is to call for help. That's part of... that gets drummed into you."
As to their friends, I thought most didn't know the McCanns or their children very well so it would seem to follow would be less emotionally involved and rather more clear thinking than say the Paynes.
Kates first reaction was to run to her husband. I believe that is a natural response for any mother - regardless of her profession. After the first frantic search the first thing Gerry did was ask for the police to be called. But IMO he would have done that even if he wasn't a doctor.
The idea that the other members of the group would not be terribly shocked and panicked - especially when it dawned on them (as it must have done) that it could have been THEIR child that was taken is ridiculous IMO.
I never cease to be amazed at how so many sceptics appear to have no ability to put themselves in another persons shoes. Every parent's worst nightmare had just happened which quite obviously affected them all. It's not called 'Every parent's WORST nightmare' for nothing. And yet they were all expected to behave calmly and logically right from the onset by some.
As time progressed some of the group did calm down enough to start thinking more clearly - and they began to try to recall the timelines - and get them written down in order to help the police.
IMO their behaviour throughout - going from enjoying a perfectly relaxing evening one second to being plunged into utter and total shock a second later - and how they reacted to that shock was perfectly normal.
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Kates first reaction was to run to her husband. I believe that is a natural response for any mother - regardless of her profession. After the first frantic search the first thing Gerry did was ask for the police to be called. But IMO he would have done that even if he wasn't a doctor.
The idea that the other members of the group would not be terribly shocked and panicked - especially when it dawned on them (as it must have done) that it could have been THEIR child that was taken is ridiculous IMO.
I never cease to be amazed at how so many sceptics appear to have no ability to put themselves in another persons shoes. Every parent's worst nightmare had just happened which quite obviously affected them all. It's not called 'Every parent's WORST nightmare' for nothing. And yet they were all expected to behave calmly and logically right from the onset by some.
As time progressed some of the group did calm down enough to start thinking more clearly - and they began to try to recall the timelines - and get them written down in order to help the police.
IMO their behaviour throughout - going from enjoying a perfectly relaxing evening one second to being plunged into utter and total shock a second later - and how they reacted to that shock was perfectly normal.
Benice are you really trying to tell me that when Fiona, Rachel, Russell et al were told by Tanner that she had seen a man with a child earlier in the evening while Gerry was in the same street their first action wouldn't have been to ask Gerry if he had seen him too because I simply wouldn't believe you.
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Yes please, whatever you do, don't make any allowances for the McCanns or their friends to be in a state of shock or for events that night to have been chaotic, disorganised, confused, frantic. That just won't do!
I do, that's why I am very sceptical of the timelines.
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I'm sorry Benice but you are not using logic but simply believing what you want to believe.
By shortly after ten several of the friends knew about Tanner's sighting yet none of them :
A. Mentioned the sighting to Gerry. In fact as Gerry was on the same street at the same time wouldn't the logical thing to do ( and remember most of his friends were doctors working in a high pressure environment ) was ask Gerry if he'd also seen the man ? If he had then it would be fairly obvious it wasn't Madeleine and the sighting could, at a stroke, have been ruled out. So why wasn't the question asked ?
B. Searched in the direction that Tanner said the man was going in
This is such a rational post I don't see how anyone could argue with it
The response seems to be, though, that the McCann's friends were in such a state they were not behaving logically
Well, in Kate's book she describes a group who were behaving very logically ;
( page 74 ... before any police had arrived )
"Despite the horror of the situation, some sense of the necessity to approach the crisis calmly and methodically appeared to kick in among our friends as they tried to exert a modicum of control over the chaos. What could be done ? What shouldbe done ? Aware that we were only an hour and a quarter's drive from southern Spain, and beyond that lay the borderless continent of Europe - not to mention the short hop across the Straight of Gibralter to north Africa - David was saying, 'we need roadblocks set up. The borders to Spain, Morocco and Algiers need to be alerted' Russell later asked us for our digital photos of Madeleine and went off somewhere with our camera"
That doesn't sound like a group behaving ilogically to me
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This is such a rational post I don't see how anyone could argue with it
The response seems to be, though, that the McCann's friends were in such a state they were not behaving logically
Well, in Kate's book she describes a group who were behaving very logically ;
( page 74 ... before any police had arrived )
"Despite the horror of the situation, some sense of the necessity to approach the crisis calmly and methodically appeared to kick in among our friends as they tried to exert a modicum of control over the chaos. What could be done ? What shouldbe done ? Aware that we were only an hour and a quarter's drive from southern Spain, and beyond that lay the borderless continent of Europe - not to mention the short hop across the Straight of Gibralter to north Africa - David was saying, 'we need roadblocks set up. The borders to Spain, Morocco and Algiers need to be alerted' Russell later asked us for our digital photos of Madeleine and went off somewhere with our camera"
That doesn't sound like a group behaving ilogically to me
The McCanns might have been in pieces - it was their child that was missing , but the others wouldn't necessarily have all been in a tailspin.
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Benice are you really trying to tell me that when Fiona, Rachel, Russell et al were told by Tanner that she had seen a man with a child earlier in the evening while Gerry was in the same street their first action wouldn't have been to ask Gerry if he had seen him too because I simply wouldn't believe you.
It doesn't matter to me whether you believe me or not. We don't know what JT said - she may not have mentioned seeing Gerry or Jez at all at that point - just that she had seen a man carrying a child on her way back to the apartment. That would be uppermost in her mind at the time IMO. Who knows.
You may profess to know exactly how people should behave in times of great stress and anxiety and what they should do and what they should say. But I don't. Stress and shock affect different people in different ways - who am I to specify that the only correct way for someone else to react to shock is how I think they should?
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This is such a rational post I don't see how anyone could argue with it
The response seems to be, though, that the McCann's friends were in such a state they were not behaving logically
Well, in Kate's book she describes a group who were behaving very logically ;
( page 74 ... before any police had arrived )
"Despite the horror of the situation, some sense of the necessity to approach the crisis calmly and methodically appeared to kick in among our friends as they tried to exert a modicum of control over the chaos[/b]. What could be done ? What shouldbe done ? Aware that we were only an hour and a quarter's drive from southern Spain, and beyond that lay the borderless continent of Europe - not to mention the short hop across the Straight of Gibralter to north Africa - David was saying, 'we need roadblocks set up. The borders to Spain, Morocco and Algiers need to be alerted' Russell later asked us for our digital photos of Madeleine and went off somewhere with our camera"
That doesn't sound like a group behaving ilogically to me
You seem to have overlooked the reference to 'the chaos'.
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You may profess to know exactly how people should behave in times of great stress and anxiety and what they should do and what they should say. But I don't. Stress and shock affect different people in different ways - who am I to specify that the only correct way for someone else to react to shock is how I think they should?
I don't think that anyone here tries to say there was only one way to behave for the Tapas Group. People just ask why Jane Tanner did not tell McCanns what she said, immediately after the alarm was raised. I don't buy an argument about saving them the pain, because saving Madeleine was at that point infinitely more important. Her life was at stake!
And another question here is why the rationally behaving group (according to Kate McCann herself!) initially did not do anything with the Tanner sighting. Nobody mentioned it to the Maddie's parents, nobody serached in that direction. Why? Again, explanation that the people react differently in the traumatic situations does not cut it for me.
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I don't think it is feasible, personally
It's what the tapas group say happened, and without evidence to the contrary we have to accept the possibility that Gerry McCann was not made aware of the man Jane saw until after 1.00am that morning
Is it feasible though ?
Is it feasible that members of the group kept that crucial information from Gerry McCann for over three hours ?
I just don't think it is
If it's not feasible what do you think IS feasible then? That they told him straight away? Or what?
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I don't think that anyone here tries to say there was only one way to behave for the Tapas Group. People just ask why Jane Tanner did not tell McCanns what she said, immediately after the alarm was raised. I don't buy an argument about saving them the pain, because saving Madeleine was at that point infinitely more important. Her life was at stake!
And another question here is why the rationally behaving group (according to Kate McCann herself!) initially did not do anything with the Tanner sighting. Nobody mentioned it to the Maddie's parents, nobody serached in that direction. Why? Again, explanation that the people react differently in the traumatic situations does not cut it for me.
All you are saying is that they didn't react how YOU think they should have - even though you were not there and are now talking with the benefit of hindsight which they did not have. JT told the police as soon as they arrived. What did they do about it? Does anyone know?
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All you are saying is that they didn't react how YOU think they should have - even though you were not there and are now talking with the benefit of hindsight which they did not have.
What freaking hinsight? You don't need any hindsight to know, that after the daughter of your friends vanished from her bed in the middle of a night, an info about the man, carrying the child seen in the area is extremely important, and that the life of said daughter might be on stake. C'mon!
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What freaking hinsight? You don't need any hindsight to know, that after the daughter of your friends vanished from her bed in the middle of a night, an info about the man, carrying the child seen in the area is extremely important, and that the life of said daughter might be on stake. C'mon!
So, the fact that they didn't do as you think they should have done implies what, in your opinion?
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So, the fact that they didn't do as you think they should have done implies what, in your opinion?
Does it have to imply anything? I just find it weird, among many other weird things in this case.
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A good place to look would be R.OB 2008 statement where IIRC he answers that question
(And for the related time of PJ arrival, the statements of the two PJ officers)