UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Alfred R Jones on February 06, 2016, 06:16:47 PM
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I'd like to read about some cases of people involved in the death of another who have deliberately moved the body to a hiding place where they hope it will be discovered. Anyone got any examples?
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It might also be interesting to explore the reasons for doing this.
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From the perspective of a murderer, the obvious reason for hoping the opposite is that forensic evidence might lead to him/or her being caught, or, at the very least, suspected.
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It might also be interesting to explore the reasons for doing this.
Crikey, I'd better start training for Rio! @)(++(*
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From the perspective of a murderer, the obvious reason for hoping the opposite is that forensic evidence might lead to him/or her being caught, or, at the very least, suspected.
On the other hand having made certain there was nothing to tie him/her to the body ... to implicate someone else by leaving some trace evidence in place.
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I can think of a few reasons why someone directly responsible might hide a body hoping it would be found, but no cases come to mind at the moment.
I'm not sure if this related to your question, but someone placed the suitcase with the remains of the poor little Aussie girl in a place where it could be found. That can't have been the person charged with her murder as he was in jail for other offences. In that case, it may have been someone formerly associated with him, perhaps in an unrelated criminal way, and didn't want to call the police to wherever the suitcase had originally been.
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Some murderers like to pose bodies or mutilate them in a certain way, like a signature. They want the body found. Others have little appetite for disposal and make a bad job of hiding the body. Then we have the truly efficient like Mr West who puts lots of effort into hiding the bodies of his victims. I think there are many variations but the only ones who want the bodies found are those who make sure they are, often by not hiding them at all.
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Some murderers like to pose bodies or mutilate them in a certain way, like a signature. They want the body found. Others have little appetite for disposal and make a bad job of hiding the body. Then we have the truly efficient like Mr West who puts lots of effort into hiding the bodies of his victims. I think there are many variations but the only ones who want the bodies found are those who make sure they are, often by not hiding them at all.
Would it be fair to say that such people are probably psychopathic in nature?
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Would it be fair to say that such people are probably psychopathic in nature?
All of them you mean? The inefficient hiders, the efficient hiders and the non hiders? Are all murderers psychopathic? Some think they may all have some sort of disorder, but then where do you place the 'normal' marker?;
"Murderers seem to have no appreciation of boundaries," Sharp explains. "And it shows up in all aspects of their lives. Most criminals I deal with are very narcissistic. They're blame-shifters, manipulative, and can't feel anyone else's pain but their own. A consistent hallmark, in fact, particularly of killers, is this extreme narcissism." Sharp points to the book People of the Lie, by the late M. Scott Peck, as a good description of a killer's personality disorder.
"These people are always the victim, it's always someone else's fault, they have no sense of other people's boundaries, and they really can't see how twisted that view is," she says. "It's a disorder."
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/12/are-all-murderers-mentally-ill/67295/
most psychologists would say that all of us sit somewhere on the spectrum of traits included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV). A person who is classified as "mentally ill" simply sits at a much more extreme point along that spectrum.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/12/are-all-murderers-mentally-ill/67295/
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All of them you mean? The inefficient hiders, the efficient hiders and the non hiders? Are all murderers psychopathic? Some think they may all have some sort of disorder, but then where do you place the 'normal' marker?;
"Murderers seem to have no appreciation of boundaries," Sharp explains. "And it shows up in all aspects of their lives. Most criminals I deal with are very narcissistic. They're blame-shifters, manipulative, and can't feel anyone else's pain but their own. A consistent hallmark, in fact, particularly of killers, is this extreme narcissism." Sharp points to the book People of the Lie, by the late M. Scott Peck, as a good description of a killer's personality disorder.
"These people are always the victim, it's always someone else's fault, they have no sense of other people's boundaries, and they really can't see how twisted that view is," she says. "It's a disorder."
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/12/are-all-murderers-mentally-ill/67295/
most psychologists would say that all of us sit somewhere on the spectrum of traits included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV). A person who is classified as "mentally ill" simply sits at a much more extreme point along that spectrum.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/12/are-all-murderers-mentally-ill/67295/
you cited those who pose bodies or mutilate them and "Mr" West, that seemed to cover the bulk of the murderers you were referring to, would you not say "Mr" West et al were psychopathic in nature?
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Getting a bit off track here. Cases of people (not necessarily murderers, but those who have come across an inconvenient body on their premises) who have moved it a little way off in the hopes that it will be discovered please..?
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Getting a bit off track here. Cases of people (not necessarily murderers, but those who have come across an inconvenient body on their premises) who have moved it a little way off in the hopes that it will be discovered please..?
What has that to do with Madeleine McCann? In fact, what has the thread to do with the case?
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What has that to do with Madeleine McCann? In fact, what has the thread to do with the case?
I'm not really allowed to spell it out but I'm sure you can figure it out for yourself!
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What has that to do with Madeleine McCann? In fact, what has the thread to do with the case?
Let me save Alfie the bother. I believe that the body could have been concealed in a large municipal bin by one of the perpetrators connected to the disappearance. The body could have been concealed there to create distance between the perpetrator and the crime. During the searches that intevitably followed the prepetrator I believe expected the body to be found. The blame for any injuries, sedation etc could then be levelled at an 'abductor'. Unfortunately the perpetrator did not know that the bins would be emptied before the body was found.
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Let me save Alfie the bother. I believe that the body could have been concealed in a large municipal bin by one of the perpetrators connected to the disappearance. The body could have been concealed there to create distance between the perpetrator and the crime. During the searches that intevitably followed the prepetrator I believe expected the body to be found. The blame for any injuries, sedation etc could then be levelled at an 'abductor'. Unfortunately the perpetrator did not know that the bins would be emptied before the body was found.
Thank you, much obliged. Now can we turn to the purpose of the thread which is to look at cases where such a cunning plan has been put into action before.
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Let me save Alfie the bother. I believe that the body could have been concealed in a large municipal bin by one of the perpetrators connected to the disappearance. The body could have been concealed there to create distance between the perpetrator and the crime. During the searches that intevitably followed the prepetrator I believe expected the body to be found. The blame for any injuries, sedation etc could then be levelled at an 'abductor'. Unfortunately the perpetrator did not know that the bins would be emptied before the body was found.
Would the perpetrator feel confounded that his cunning plan backfired in this instance do you think?
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Incidentally I have googled the hell out of this and have yet to come across any case in which someone responsible for a death has placed a body somewhere not far from the crime scene where they expected it to be found, but perhaps I'm not putting the right phrases into the search engine. And then we also have the issue of hiding the body somewhere close by expecting it to be found and raising the alarm at the same time.
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Say the reason for death was a bang on the head, and a post-mortem revealed some sort of sedative also. Body found within yards of the place it was last seen. How would this necessarily get the other occupants of the property off the hook as far as the police investigation is concerned?
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Thank you, much obliged. Now can we turn to the purpose of the thread which is to look at cases where such a cunning plan has been put into action before.
I will right after you show me a case other than Madeleine's where a three year old British girl has vanished without trace from her holiday apartment.
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I will right after you show me a case other than Madeleine's where a three year old British girl has vanished without trace from her holiday apartment.
Will vanished with trace (thankfully found alive) from the ground floor (indeed bath) of a one-story flat, while all the family were in, do?
Peter Voisey serves time for that crime.
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Will vanished with trace (thankfully found alive) from the ground floor (indeed bath) of a one-story flat, while all the family were in, do?
Peter Voisey serves time for that crime.
Nope.
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I will right after you show me a case other than Madeleine's where a three year old British girl has vanished without trace from her holiday apartment.
That's a very specific demand. I can show you a case of a two year old British boy vanishing without trace from the home of his family in Greece, which is pretty close. I can also show you the case of another young girl who vanished without trace not two years before Madeleine, from a location only a few miles from PdL. Now, back to you - cases where bodies have been hidden with a specific intention of being discovered - don't have to be British, or three years old or on holiday to qualify.
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That's a very specific demand. I can show you a case of a two year old British boy vanishing without trace from the home of his family in Greece, which is pretty close. I can also show you the case of another young girl who vanished without trace not two years before Madeleine, from a location only a few miles from PdL. Now, back to you - cases where bodies have been hidden with a specific intention of being discovered - don't have to be British, or three years old or on holiday to qualify.
So can I take that as a no then ?
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So can I take that as a no then ?
No you can't take it as a no, unless you want to be completely unreasonable about it. I haven't laid down any parameters in my request - any examples of someone hiding any sort of body anywhere in the world with the specific intention of it being found will do. I'm beginning to get the impression that you are deflecting....
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Will this thread still be here in the morning I ask myself, or will someone have pulled a few strings to get it removed...?
I guess we shall just have to wait and see....
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No you can't take it as a no, unless you want to be completely unreasonable about it. I haven't laid down any parameters in my request - any examples of someone hiding any sort of body anywhere in the world with the specific intention of it being found will do. I'm beginning to get the impression that you are deflecting....
Tell me Alfie who are we to know what the person hiding the body's intention is ?
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One question at a time.
How are we to know a body was hidden?
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This thread doesn't make any sense. Why would you hide a body if you want it to be found? The reason you would hide is for it not to be found. A quickly found body can estimate time of death. Not too good for the perps if she was dead a while then you can trace back to where she was at the time of death. Get Real Alfie.
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This thread doesn't make any sense. Why would you hide a body if you want it to be found? The reason you would hide is for it not to be found. A quickly found body can estimate time of death. Not too good for the perps if she was dead a while then you can trace back to where she was at the time of death. Get Real Alfie.
Not if you want to make it look like an abductor's hidden it there.
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It's faith's theory Alfred is exploring ...
You hide because you are cocky enough to think you can do it and get away with it. Look for a cocky suspect in this case.
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You hide because you are cocky enough to think you can do it and get away with it. Look for a cocky suspect in this case.
There certainly was a very strutting rooster around from the beginning...calling the shots...quite embarrassing.....really
As to this wierd thread, many people hide bodies within a short distance, even in their own homes eg Tia Sharpes stepdad stuffed her in his loft....what a dumbass....whether they want to be found out is anyones guess...ie no one can know
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There certainly was a very strutting rooster around from the beginning...calling the shots...quite embarrassing.....really
As to this wierd thread, many people hide bodies within a short distance, even in their own homes eg Tia Sharpes stepdad stuffed her in his loft....what a dumbass....whether they want to be found out is anyones guess...ie no one can know
There's a thing ... I didn't think he was around from the beginning ... I thought he was at a dinner somewhere.
I don't think Tia's murderer wanted her body to be found ... ever; he went to considerable lengths to conceal it.
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You hide because you are cocky enough to think you can do it and get away with it. Look for a cocky suspect in this case.
Precisely.
It 's arrogance and the intent to deflect attention.
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Let me save Alfie the bother. I believe that the body could have been concealed in a large municipal bin by one of the perpetrators connected to the disappearance. The body could have been concealed there to create distance between the perpetrator and the crime. During the searches that intevitably followed the prepetrator I believe expected the body to be found. The blame for any injuries, sedation etc could then be levelled at an 'abductor'. Unfortunately the perpetrator did not know that the bins would be emptied before the body was found.
Does that mean the perp was hoping the body would be found though? I would see it more as a plan which worked whether or not the body was found. If it wasn't, body gone. If it was, finger pointing time.
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Surely it would come down to why the child was abducted and murdered? I don't think a child would be abducted just to be knocked on the head do you?
Therefore if a paedo abducted the child there would surely be DNA and it wouldn't be related to the McCann's.
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The McCanns would hardly have hidden a body to be found, knowing as they would have done, about establishing the time of death. All too easy if the body is found fairly quickly.
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That's a very specific demand. I can show you a case of a two year old British boy vanishing without trace from the home of his family in Greece, which is pretty close. I can also show you the case of another young girl who vanished without trace not two years before Madeleine, from a location only a few miles from PdL. Now, back to you - cases where bodies have been hidden with a specific intention of being discovered - don't have to be British, or three years old or on holiday to qualify.
The Aussie suitcase one that I mentioned earlier? The suitcase was dumped very far away though. That mystery is still ongoing.
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This thread doesn't make any sense. Why would you hide a body if you want it to be found? The reason you would hide is for it not to be found. A quickly found body can estimate time of death. Not too good for the perps if she was dead a while then you can trace back to where she was at the time of death. Get Real Alfie.
I agree actually, no need to instruct ME to "get real" thanks!
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Tell me Alfie who are we to know what the person hiding the body's intention is ?
you seem to!
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Yet Faithlilly has said that the McCann's hid Madeleine's body in a dumpster, one of the first places the police would look I would assume.
Is it routine for the police to head for the dustbins when a child is reported missing then? I must have missed that.
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Is it routine for the police to head for the dustbins when a child is reported missing then? I must have missed that.
It is routing for police to look anywhere they think a child could be hiding or have been hidden I would think. That might include easily accessible bins on walkways might it not? Or are police not paid to think that far out of the box?
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Is it routine for the police to head for the dustbins when a child is reported missing then? I must have missed that.
Obviously they don't head for dustbins, but they would look in them as they moved through an area.
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So far as I can fathom Faith's fantasy, it runs that the McCanns wanted her body to be found.
I am too busy preserving precious brain-cells to try to fathom why ....
Would you not want your daughter's body to be found, even if you had contributed to the circumstances of her death ? Putting the body in a place of concealment which the public had easy access to would almost ensure the body at some point would be found. The concealing and/or traces of sedation could be blamed on the 'abductor'. If an accident had happened while the parents were having dinner the PM would show the time of death was within the timescale the parents were claiming an abduction had taken place.
The only problem was a holidaymaker would not know that the bins were emptied in the early hours of the morning and the body disappeared before it had the chance to be found.
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Would you not want your daughter's body to be found, even if you had contributed to the circumstances of her death ? Putting the body in a place of concealment which the public had easy access to would almost ensure the body at some point would be found. The concealing and/or traces of sedation could be blamed on the 'abductor'. If an accident had happened while the parents were having dinner the PM would show the time of death was within the timescale the parents were claiming an abduction had taken place.
The only problem was a holidaymaker would not know that the bins were emptied in the early hours of the morning and the body disappeared before it had the chance to be found.
Why would an abductor be blamed for a child being found with firstly a sedative, so the abductor would have sedated her so that he could abduct her, and secondly strangely a bang on the head??? Why would an abductor hit her on the head if he had already sedated her? For what reason? and for what reason would he be abducting her? Surely an abductor would be abducting her if a paedophile sexual reasons, and so his DNA would be found or if for ransom he would have taken her away same goes for handing her over for money.
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Why would an abductor be blamed for a child being found with firstly a sedative, so the abductor would have sedated her so that he could abduct her, and secondly strangely a bang on the head??? Why would an abductor hit her on the head if he had already sedated her? For what reason? and for what reason would he be abducting her? Surely an abductor would be abducting her if a paedophile sexual reasons, and so his DNA would be found or if for ransom he would have taken her away same goes for handing her over for money.
Yes, I asked this question earlier:
Say the reason for death was a bang on the head, and a post-mortem revealed some sort of sedative also. Body found within yards of the place it was last seen. How would this necessarily get the other occupants of the property off the hook as far as the police investigation is concerned?
No response.
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Yes, I asked this question earlier:
Say the reason for death was a bang on the head, and a post-mortem revealed some sort of sedative also. Body found within yards of the place it was last seen. How would this necessarily get the other occupants of the property off the hook as far as the police investigation is concerned?
No response.
It would certainly muddy the water.
This was not a look-at-it-from-every-angle plan. This was a plan forged in desperation. That the story was modified again and again in the coming days, weeks, months and years bears testament to that.
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It would certainly muddy the water.
This was not a look-at-it-from-every-angle plan. This was a plan forged in desperation. That the story was modified again and again in the coming days, weeks, months and years bears testament to that.
Muddy the water? that little ploy would have been sussed in a matter of minutes.
Can't see the McCann's hiding Madeleine's body in a bin in order for the abductor to be blamed for her death.
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Why would an abductor be blamed for a child being found with firstly a sedative, so the abductor would have sedated her so that he could abduct her, and secondly strangely a bang on the head??? Why would an abductor hit her on the head if he had already sedated her? For what reason? and for what reason would he be abducting her? Surely an abductor would be abducting her if a paedophile sexual reasons, and so his DNA would be found or if for ransom he would have taken her away same goes for handing her over for money.
So, the abductor again.
Never expected to see that. 8**8:/:
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Muddy the water? that little ploy would have been sussed in a matter of minutes.
Can't see the McCann's hiding Madeleine's body in a bin in order for the abductor to be blamed for her death.
Quite. It's absurd. You stage an abduction and try and make the body disappear for good to make it look like a convincing abduction, not pop it in the nearest bin to be found asap.
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Quite. It's absurd. You stage an abduction and try and make the body disappear for good to make it look like a convincing abduction, not pop it in the nearest bin to be found asap.
if you know about the rubbish collection times a far away bin might not be a bad idea, especially if you put the body inside something so it's not immediately noticeable if anyone opens the bin and looks in.
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if you know about the rubbish collection times a far away bin might not be a bad idea, especially if you put the body inside something so it's not immediately noticeable if anyone opens the bin and looks in.
Agreed, people tend not to hide bodies in bins hoping they will soon be discovered. Well, not in the universe I'm living in anyway.