Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Opal on May 19, 2016, 12:02:06 AM
Title: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Opal on May 19, 2016, 12:02:06 AM
I've been studying the letter/numbers John could see in the patch of blood next to the bible. I could be wrong but on checking the double photo of Shelia with the gun on her chest and then the other one where her arm is moved, the blood mark where the letter/numbers are... isn't there. Plus, the edge of the other photo where the U shaped blood would have been after her arm was moved has been cut off. Could this tell us that the blood mark John was speaking of was under the bible before Shelia's arm was moved?
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Caroline on May 19, 2016, 12:58:12 AM
I've been studying the letter/numbers John could see in the patch of blood next to the bible. I could be wrong but on checking the double photo of Shelia with the gun on her chest and then the other one where her arm is moved, the blood mark where the letter/numbers are... isn't there. Plus, the edge of the other photo where the U shaped blood would have been after her arm was moved has been cut off. Could this tell us that the blood mark John was speaking of was under the bible before Shelia's arm was moved?
The U shape is facing the wrong direction Opal. Think it was Myster who mentioned the letters and numbers but suggested that they were from someone having written something while resting on the picture?
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Myster on May 19, 2016, 07:26:11 AM
I've been studying the letter/numbers John could see in the patch of blood next to the bible. I could be wrong but on checking the double photo of Shelia with the gun on her chest and then the other one where her arm is moved, the blood mark where the letter/numbers are... isn't there. Plus, the edge of the other photo where the U shaped blood would have been after her arm was moved has been cut off. Could this tell us that the blood mark John was speaking of was under the bible before Shelia's arm was moved?
Yes, the illegible number and word I could see in the carpet stain appeared at first to have been written in the blood, but on studying them again were more likely to have been impressions caused by someone (JB?) writing a letter on a sheet of paper which rested on top of the original CS photo. When this photo was subsequently photographed again, the impressions showed up... so another myth debunked before it even began.
The bible might have shifted slightly when her arm was moved, but not enough to make any difference to the position of the stain. It's difficult to tell, because in the dual photo (attached) the camera's location was changed for each shot. In the left pic the camera was held towards the foot of the bed, in the right pic it was held towards the head of the bed, so giving distorted views.
The mystery is... that the bible stain is abruptly cut off at the top of the page, which means that there should be a continuation of that stain on the carpet, somewhere between the arrows just above the top edge of the bible (in the second attached photo). The carpet stain (where I saw the mysterious number and word) is too far over to the right to have caused the bible stain, and even if it had would have been on the wrong (left-hand) page anyway.
As I said before, and as Caroline is definite about, I think the bible stain is a palm print caused by a woman's bloodied right hand, rather than from anything transferred off the carpet.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Opal on May 19, 2016, 11:43:09 AM
Thanks for explanation Caroline and Myster.
So the bible couldn't have been upside down whilst face at some point ?
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 19, 2016, 03:13:04 PM
Just been rummaging in the loft looking for an old hard drive which has stored docs on from my Blue days! Many of which I've never read!
From the Dickinson report:
Point 143 - confirmation the police may have moved the bible when searching the house ie before SoC/photographers entered?
Point 146 - reference to the twins being found in a small bedroom from the main bedroom via a communicating box room.
I have for a long time now thought SC was moved significantly probably by PC Collins and Delgado. I believe her body may have been blocking the entrance to the box room leading to the small bedroom where the twins were found in and for whatever reason(s), operational or otherwise, this is how the twins were initially identified not via the landing.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Myster on May 19, 2016, 04:39:37 PM
Just been rummaging in the loft looking for an old hard drive which has stored docs on from my Blue days! Many of which I've never read!
From the Dickinson report:
Point 143 - confirmation the police may have moved the bible when searching the house ie before SoC/photographers entered?
Point 146 - reference to the twins being found in a small bedroom from the main bedroom via a communicating box room.
I have for a long time now thought SC was moved significantly probably by PC Collins and Delgado. I believe her body may have been blocking the entrance to the box room leading to the small bedroom where the twins were found in and for whatever reason(s), operational or otherwise, this is how the twins were initially identified not via the landing.
If Sheila was moved away from the Boxroom door, I'm certain there would be a heavy blood trail on the carpet from where she was dragged/pulled/shoved/lifted... but there isn't any. Even in 1985 the police must have been aware never to shift anything prior to CS photos being taken. And there might have been easy access to the Boxroom from the twins' bedroom anyway, so no need to move any body to reach it from the master bedroom.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Myster on May 19, 2016, 04:43:39 PM
If Sheila was moved away from the Boxroom door, I'm certain there would be a heavy blood trail on the carpet from where she was dragged/pulled/shoved/lifted... but there isn't any. Even in 1985 the police must have been aware never to shift anything prior to CS photos being taken. And there might have been easy access to the Boxroom from the twins' bedroom anyway, so no need to move any body to reach it from the master bedroom.
I'll leave it to you to sort out the lay out, but originally, what we now call a box room, was the gentleman's dressing room which separated his bedroom from his wife's bedroom. There would have been access TO both bedrooms from the landing area, and access FROM both bedrooms to and from the dressing room. Latterly the dressing room often made a convenient en suite.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 19, 2016, 05:24:59 PM
If Sheila was moved away from the Boxroom door, I'm certain there would be a heavy blood trail on the carpet from where she was dragged/pulled/shoved/lifted... but there isn't any. Even in 1985 the police must have been aware never to shift anything prior to CS photos being taken. And there might have been easy access to the Boxroom from the twins' bedroom anyway, so no need to move any body to reach it from the master bedroom.
I'm not sure about blood trails? Maybe some blood leaked onto the bible? When I said significantly I meant more than, for example, when DI Cook moved SC's hand for PC Bird to photograph underneath, but obviously still within that corner of the bedroom.
I think being aware from training is one thing but practice is another especially when officers were faced with the horrors that met them at WHF.
That corner looks pretty tight to me especially for police officers wearing flak jackets and carrying firearms.
I'll leave it to you to sort out the lay out, but originally, what we now call a box room, was the gentleman's dressing room which separated his bedroom from his wife's bedroom. There would have been access TO both bedrooms from the landing area, and access FROM both bedrooms to and from the dressing room. Latterly the dressing room often made a convenient en suite.
Sounds exciting! Where did all the action take place so to speak? The gentleman's dressing room?
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: APRIL on May 19, 2016, 05:44:26 PM
Sounds exciting! Where did all the action take place so to speak? The gentleman's dressing room?
Ah, well thems were the days when the polite and courteous husband, who showed his wife every consideration, would knock to be allowed in. It also served to give him privacy in his own quarters where the real actkion may have happened. 8(0(*
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Myster on May 19, 2016, 06:07:59 PM
Ah, well thems were the days when the polite and courteous husband, who showed his wife every consideration, would knock to be allowed in. It also served to give him privacy in his own quarters where the real actkion may have happened. 8(0(*
A new name for nooky that I've never come across! (http://i.imgur.com/OSeiceH.gif)
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: scipio_usmc on May 19, 2016, 06:17:09 PM
Just been rummaging in the loft looking for an old hard drive which has stored docs on from my Blue days! Many of which I've never read!
From the Dickinson report:
Point 143 - confirmation the police may have moved the bible when searching the house ie before SoC/photographers entered?
Point 146 - reference to the twins being found in a small bedroom from the main bedroom via a communicating box room.
I have for a long time now thought SC was moved significantly probably by PC Collins and Delgado. I believe her body may have been blocking the entrance to the box room leading to the small bedroom where the twins were found in and for whatever reason(s), operational or otherwise, this is how the twins were initially identified not via the landing.
As I have pointed out many times the Bible was not simply lying face down in half. The pages were folded over. While it is possible for Jeremy to have placed it in such folded position Dickinson among others speculate that maybe the door was opened and pushed the Bible against the body causing the folding over. This speculation is ill advised because the door can't open enough to push the Bible against her. The night stand and her head prevent the door from opening enough to push the Bible as suggested.
The only movement of the Bible by police that is possible would be slightly pulling it away from her body to expose the looseleaf paper sheet more or to try to look at the blood under the Bible. The trail of blood leaking down her arm that got on the paper fails to perfectly line up. That means either the killer slightly disturbed things after that blood flowed, which is certainly possible, or police slightly moved it to get a look at the blood under it or get a look at the note.
Aside from the fact that the police say they didn't move her body to try to enter the boxroom, the pool of blood next to Sheila that formed after she was dragged flat proves that is where her body was left. She can't have been by the door or the pool of blood would have been there instead.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Opal on May 19, 2016, 06:53:39 PM
Don't understand your question, Opal... you'll have to rephrase, unless Caroline can fathom it.
Sorry Myster.....trying to do too much at the same time ( I'm writing a small treasure hunt at the moment) I guess I thought I'd give you a puzzle as well! @)(++(*
I meant to say.....could the bible be upside down and face down....therefore the blood stain being at the bottom of the page instead of the top?
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 19, 2016, 07:55:48 PM
As I have pointed out many times the Bible was not simply lying face down in half. The pages were folded over. While it is possible for Jeremy to have placed it in such folded position Dickinson among others speculate that maybe the door was opened and pushed the Bible against the body causing the folding over. This speculation is ill advised because the door can't open enough to push the Bible against her. The night stand and her head prevent the door from opening enough to push the Bible as suggested.
The only movement of the Bible by police that is possible would be slightly pulling it away from her body to expose the looseleaf paper sheet more or to try to look at the blood under the Bible. The trail of blood leaking down her arm that got on the paper fails to perfectly line up. That means either the killer slightly disturbed things after that blood flowed, which is certainly possible, or police slightly moved it to get a look at the blood under it or get a look at the note.
Aside from the fact that the police say they didn't move her body to try to enter the boxroom, the pool of blood next to Sheila that formed after she was dragged flat proves that is where her body was left. She can't have been by the door or the pool of blood would have been there instead.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean above by the bibles position Scipio?
Where do the police specifically say they did not move SC's body to enter the boxroom? The raid team WS's imply they left the main bedroom and first identified the twins by accessing their bedroom from the landing. If this is the case there shouldn't have been a need for them to move SC as they could access the box room from the twins room. Raid team WS's do make mention of opening the box room door from the main bedroom but imply this was just to check the room. They make no mention of accessing the twins room from the box room.
Even after all occupants (victims) were identified, as per the info JB passed to officers, they continued to search the entire property with caution. It's possible for operational reasons they may have moved SC to enable them to access that room by effectively storming it. I don't get the impression the raid team relaxed after identifying the adult occupants/victims.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: scipio_usmc on May 19, 2016, 10:38:13 PM
One way the pages can get like this is if the Bible was not set down nice and carefully while holding both sides. Setting it down with one hand can result in such. This possibility is not sexy enough for some and is ignored in favor of suggesting the Bible had been in half flat on Sheila's body but then fell to the floor causing the uneven folding or being pushed closer to Sheila by the door or a foot.
If the Bible had been further away from Sheila's body then the blood that dripped down her arm would have gone to the floor instead of onto the looseleaf paper sticking out of the Bible. It is quit clear the Bible was next to her from the time she was flat as opposed to pushed there hours later by police.
Moreover, look how close the door is to her head, if the door were opened more it would hit her head as opposed to being able to open enough to push the Bible directly against her:
Where do the police specifically say they did not move SC's body to enter the boxroom? The raid team WS's imply they left the main bedroom and first identified the twins by accessing their bedroom from the landing. If this is the case there shouldn't have been a need for them to move SC as they could access the box room from the twins room. Raid team WS's do make mention of opening the box room door from the main bedroom but imply this was just to check the room. They make no mention of accessing the twins room from the box room.
Even after all occupants (victims) were identified, as per the info JB passed to officers, they continued to search the entire property with caution. It's possible for operational reasons they may have moved SC to enable them to access that room by effectively storming it. I don't get the impression the raid team relaxed after identifying the adult occupants/victims.
The appeal decision goes over the things police admitted to disturbing which means they denied disturbing anything else and did give an account in detail of their search. They specifically stated they didn't move her body in any way until after taking the initial photos.
They didn't walk through the boxroom to the twins. What they did was simply look in the door of the boxroom from the master bedroom to make sure it was clear. They opened it just enough to walk in not enough to bash her head. They then cleared the other boxroom and Sheila's bedroom. Then they went to the other hallway and found the twins and finally cleared Jeremy's old bedroom. The upstairs office had been cleared by going up the office stairs before they did any of the bedrooms.
Quite obviously if her body had been against the closet door they would not have needed to clear that room because the killer could not go inside it and then while inside move her body in front of the door. They would have worried about clearing it from the kid's room.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Opal on May 19, 2016, 11:48:12 PM
Could the bible have been folded double with the front and back covers then being inside, then fallen across SC's nightie when she fell back, with the page with most blood on against her nightie, then slipped down at some point making the spine of the bible open out again. This would account for most of the blood on the page being furthest away from the body. Looking at both pages with blood in them, and with the bible folded with covers of bible inside, the blood stains on both pages match up. This doesn't alter the fact that the bible was closed at some point.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: scipio_usmc on May 20, 2016, 12:09:52 AM
Could the bible have been folded double with the front and back covers then being inside, then fallen across SC's nightie when she fell back, with the page with most blood on against her nightie, then slipped down at some point making the spine of the bible open out again. This would account for most of the blood on the page being furthest away from the body. Looking at both pages with blood in them, and with the bible folded with covers of bible inside, the blood stains on both pages match up. This doesn't alter the fact that the bible was closed at some point.
There is no way she could shoot herself and the Bible could end up anywhere on her body. Thus it would make zero sense for Jeremy to place it on her body. I just can't see any way that he would view the Bible on her as accomplishing anything but causing doubt she killed herself.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Opal on May 20, 2016, 05:19:38 PM
There is no way she could shoot herself and the Bible could end up anywhere on her body. Thus it would make zero sense for Jeremy to place it on her body. I just can't see any way that he would view the Bible on her as accomplishing anything but causing doubt she killed herself.
I didn't say that JB had placed the bible on SC, or that SC had it in her hand when she shot herself, however could JB have thrown the bible?
Statement from Trial.
Q - Do you remember, some time during our interviews I asked you about a bible, your mother had? R - JB. Yes….( accused shown blue holy bible New Testament Version.
Q – Have you handled that bible recently? R. - JB My mother had a bible similar to that one and I could have handled it.
Q – For what reason could you have handled it? R - JB. To threaten the dog.
Q. When would that have been.?
R. JB. No comment.
JB hated the dog, the dog was found in the main bedroom. Could JB have thrown the bible at the dog?
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 20, 2016, 05:28:09 PM
I didn't say that JB had placed the bible on SC, or that SC had it in her hand when she shot herself, however could JB have thrown the bible?
Statement from Trial.
Q - Do you remember, some time during our interviews I asked you about a bible, your mother had? R - JB. Yes….( accused shown blue holy bible New Testament Version.
Q – Have you handled that bible recently? R. - JB My mother had a bible similar to that one and I could have handled it.
Q – For what reason could you have handled it? R - JB. To threaten the dog.
Q. When would that have been.?
R. JB. No comment.
JB hated the dog, the dog was found in the main bedroom. Could JB have thrown the bible at the dog?
Opal Is that from JB's trial testimony or police interviews?
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Opal on May 20, 2016, 06:04:46 PM
sorry Holly, it was from Jeremy Bamber police interview transcript - 10 Sept 1985. Page 52
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: scipio_usmc on May 20, 2016, 09:31:48 PM
I didn't say that JB had placed the bible on SC, or that SC had it in her hand when she shot herself, however could JB have thrown the bible?
Statement from Trial.
Q - Do you remember, some time during our interviews I asked you about a bible, your mother had? R - JB. Yes….( accused shown blue holy bible New Testament Version.
Q – Have you handled that bible recently? R. - JB My mother had a bible similar to that one and I could have handled it.
Q – For what reason could you have handled it? R - JB. To threaten the dog.
Q. When would that have been.?
R. JB. No comment.
JB hated the dog, the dog was found in the main bedroom. Could JB have thrown the bible at the dog?
The Bible was opened, a small amount of blood got on it, then it was closed and subsequently reopened to the same page. The chances of it reopening to the same page and landing on the same page he had previously opened it to is nil, it had to be opened to that page intentionally.
Sheila found religion recently and it is rather obvious the planting of the Bible was aimed at suggesting such was tied to her suicide or the murders. What exactly Jeremy was doing that he closed and reopened it is not clear we only can figure out his broad intention.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 20, 2016, 10:16:28 PM
The Bible was opened, a small amount of blood got on it, then it was closed and subsequently reopened to the same page. The chances of it reopening to the same page and landing on the same page he had previously opened it to is nil, it had to be opened to that page intentionally.
Sheila found religion recently and it is rather obvious the planting of the Bible was aimed at suggesting such was tied to her suicide or the murders. What exactly Jeremy was doing that he closed and reopened it is not clear we only can figure out his broad intention.
There's no firm evidence how the bible came to be where it was found or whose blood was on it.
There's some evidence SC had found relgion/God following her last breakdown. She sent the letter to AE saying she had found God in a positive way or words to this effect. She said similar to CC. JB only saw SC infrequently would he have known about this? If he did why not lay it on thick with the police when he phoned and stood outside them? Why restrict it just to her mental illness?
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 20, 2016, 11:53:57 PM
One way the pages can get like this is if the Bible was not set down nice and carefully while holding both sides. Setting it down with one hand can result in such. This possibility is not sexy enough for some and is ignored in favor of suggesting the Bible had been in half flat on Sheila's body but then fell to the floor causing the uneven folding or being pushed closer to Sheila by the door or a foot.
If the Bible had been further away from Sheila's body then the blood that dripped down her arm would have gone to the floor instead of onto the looseleaf paper sticking out of the Bible. It is quit clear the Bible was next to her from the time she was flat as opposed to pushed there hours later by police.
Moreover, look how close the door is to her head, if the door were opened more it would hit her head as opposed to being able to open enough to push the Bible directly against her:
I'm sure there's an expert somewhere who has spent half his/her life studying these things but it isn't me. I find it difficult to draw any firm conclusions about any of the photos especially when I read all the accompanying documents.
The American bible above is relatively new. June's bible was heavily used and worn. Apparently she referred to it constantly like some sort of guide as to how she should live. It had a note inside on paper or card. Also a piece of cloth possibly a bookmark. Surely all these things would cause it to behave differently in terms of pages falling open etc? We know June was capable of getting out of bed walking to NB's side and back to the main door. I think its entirely possible she picked up the bible and walked round the bed with it and dropped it. It may have been to the left of SC and the police moved SC over the bible so it was then situated on her right? Movement may have caused blood from her wounds to run and end up on the bible?
SC's position doesn't look right to me. Her head surely would not have fallen to the right of the bedside cabinet? She would have fallen straight back with her head wedged against the cabinet and possibly some sort of bruising to the back of her head?
The appeal decision goes over the things police admitted to disturbing which means they denied disturbing anything else and did give an account in detail of their search. They specifically stated they didn't move her body in any way until after taking the initial photos.
The 2002 appeal didn't include police intefering the with SoC in the bedroom. It was restricted to the kitchen only - ground 2.
The WS's of PC Collins and Delgado are identical word for word which I find suspicious given the others have all been written in their own words.
They didn't walk through the boxroom to the twins. What they did was simply look in the door of the boxroom from the master bedroom to make sure it was clear. They opened it just enough to walk in not enough to bash her head. They then cleared the other boxroom and Sheila's bedroom. Then they went to the other hallway and found the twins and finally cleared Jeremy's old bedroom. The upstairs office had been cleared by going up the office stairs before they did any of the bedrooms.
Unfortunately we don't have the benefit of an visual recording so we have no idea what they did or didn't do. We only have their account of what they say they did which contradicts somewhat with various documents.
Quite obviously if her body had been against the closet door they would not have needed to clear that room because the killer could not go inside it and then while inside move her body in front of the door. They would have worried about clearing it from the kid's room.
The raid team had no real idea what had happened only what JB told them. For all they knew the perp may have been in the box room. It seems clear from the WS's they continued to search the property cautiously even after all occupants/victims had been identified.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 21, 2016, 09:54:46 PM
When I read about June and the role religion played (dominated) in her life I find it difficult to comprehend.
I recall in CAL's book shortly before the tragedy June was out and about in her friend's car and suddenly said "Pray for Sheila".
I've also recently read Jean Boutell's WS and the Dickinson report again both of which confirm June's strong religious beliefs/faith. On this basis and given June walked from her side of the bed to NB's and back I'm convinced she reached for her bible, carried it with her and dropped it in the vicinity it was found.
14. June Bamber was also 61 years old. Religion had always played a strong part in her life. In her latter years her interest in this regard had to an extent come to dominate her thinking, to a point that might have been thought to be obsessive. In 1982, she received treatment at a psychiatric hospital in Northampton.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Myster on May 22, 2016, 02:18:01 PM
When I read about June and the role religion played (dominated) in her life I find it difficult to comprehend.
I recall in CAL's book shortly before the tragedy June was out and about in her friend's car and suddenly said "Pray for Sheila".
I've also recently read Jean Boutell's WS and the Dickinson report again both of which confirm June's strong religious beliefs/faith. On this basis and given June walked from her side of the bed to NB's and back I'm convinced she reached for her bible, carried it with her and dropped it in the vicinity it was found.
14. June Bamber was also 61 years old. Religion had always played a strong part in her life. In her latter years her interest in this regard had to an extent come to dominate her thinking, to a point that might have been thought to be obsessive. In 1982, she received treatment at a psychiatric hospital in Northampton.
Because June dropped numerous blood spots onto the floor, there must have been more of the same, as well as smears and/or bloody prints on the bible through handling, whether on the outside or inside had she carried it around the room... but the book is relatively free of them. Only what I believe to be a palm print and a couple of spots on the two inside pages, but none at all on the blue cover. No... the book was taken by the killer from its usual bedside cabinet position, or from June's side of the bed if she had been reading it, and deliberately placed face down on Sheila's arm after she was shot to death.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 22, 2016, 04:06:50 PM
Because June dropped numerous blood spots onto the floor, there must have been more of the same, as well as smears and/or bloody prints on the bible through handling, whether on the outside or inside had she carried it around the room... but the book is relatively free of them. Only what I believe to be a palm print and a couple of spots on the two inside pages, but none at all on the blue cover. No... the book was taken by the killer from its usual bedside cabinet position, or from June's side of the bed if she had been reading it, and deliberately placed face down on Sheila's arm after she was shot to death.
Yes June did drop numerous blood spots onto the floor but this may well have been from the GSW she sustained to her knee. The bullet exited so the potential for blood to leak onto the floor from this injury was effectively front and back.
I don't know if June was right or left handed? If right handed she may have been prevented from using this arm due to the GSW she sustained to it.
If I put my guilty hat on (yes I have one) I just can't get my head round JB seeking out the bible to stage on SC. SC had a long history of mental illness with in-patient psychiatric care there was no need to over complicate with religious fervour. If JB told officers she was religious I might be able to believe it wearing my guilty hat but he didn't.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 22, 2016, 04:14:10 PM
All June's wounds were to her right side apart from the wound between the eyes which it seems happened after she went round the bed. If she held the bible in her left arm this might account for lack of any blood staining from June.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: scipio_usmc on May 22, 2016, 07:54:12 PM
All June's wounds were to her right side apart from the wound between the eyes which it seems happened after she went round the bed. If she held the bible in her left arm this might account for lack of any blood staining from June.
The Bible was sitting in a pool of blood that formed after Sheila died. There is no way the Bible was sitting there and the blood leaked under it and Sheila's body just happened to fall right next to it.
Moreover, the notion June, Jeremy or anyone else opened the Bible and closed it then dropped it and it happened to open to the same page it previously had been opened to is simply fantasy. Indeed the blood would help keep those specific pages together unless someone intentionally peeled them apart.
Just because June was religious doesn't mean after being seriously wounded that she would pick up the Bible and carry it around. I know many people who are not simply religious in the sense I am but rather fanatical. I can't see any of these fanatics running to grab a Bible to try to read after being shot. In fact much of the fanaticism isn't really about the religion at all but rather so they can feel important or have something to do or to have some purpose. They care about the politics though often petty politics at that. I don't know whether June was fanatical like them or not. People who said June was fanatical were people who had no use for religion so are not reliable sources. Someone like me is in a much better position to assess such. I go to Church every Sunday and holiday, I usher at those masses. I am a member of the knights of Columbus so do charitable work with them and also assist with the planning and execution of our Parish's main fundraiser. I am thus pretty active. People who hate religion altogether could consider that fanaticism. I don't go to Church everyday or pray for hours a day as some do. Nor do I get involved in Bible study or the more social aspects I am result oriented only. Some women in our Parish spend all their waking time involved in Church ministries but a lot of it is social and more about occupying their time. They gossip and have a habit of sticking their noses where they do not belong and trying to control people and things. None of this advances their religious views. I had a run in with one today after Mass while I was setting up for Baptisms. I won't give the particulars but her attitude and behavior was not about religion at all but rather her wanting to control things none of her concern and that she didn't even know anything about.
The men including the priests are very easygoing for the most part and don't make big deals of things except for one fellow usher who is quite stern and says things he should not really say but sometimes it is amusing because he will annoy people who are pains in the ass and you can't help but enjoy seeing them put in their place. He's old so he can get away with it.
Was June one of these politicking pains in the ass? We lack enough info to know but even if she was it would not mean she was necessarily a religious fanatic in the spiritual sense. The ones more fanatical in the spiritual sense are more introspective and less into the politics generally. The ones obsessed with prayer typically view prayer as obviating their need to take part helping people in other ways. They will say they prayed for them as opposed to lifting a finger to do something in the physical sense.
My 15 year old niece was present when the lady was screaming at me giving me grief. She told my family what happened and got my mom started- she said she hated working for women it was much easier working for men and why she would never vote for a woman to become president... Then my niece made us laugh saying she could never be a lesbian because she can't stand girls and their petty drama. You never know what is going to pop out of her mouth, she has no filter.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Opal on May 23, 2016, 11:49:40 PM
Could June B have had the bible in her hands at some point during the times she was shot after all?
Reading TFU Police C. Woodcock's statement, he says he saw that June B had finger prints on her throat ! A palm print on the bible, finger prints on her throat. &%+((£
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Myster on May 24, 2016, 07:46:00 AM
Could June B have had the bible in her hands at some point during the times she was shot after all?
Reading TFU Police C. Woodcock's statement, he says he saw that June B had finger prints on her throat ! A palm print on the bible, finger prints on her throat. &%+((£
I think there would be bloody fingerprints all over the bible had she carried it around the room in her hand(s). Having been shot several times beforehand, June's natural instinct would be to feel the wounds, hence the finger prints on her throat. IF the bible stain was from her palm, this might have occurred say, when she pressed her right hand down forcefully on the already opened page if the book was resting on the bedclothes as she was trying to get up. The bible couldn't have been held by her as there's no continuation of that particular stain in the form of bloody fingerprints/smears around the book's top edge and back cover. And when examined there appeared to be no other bloody fingerprints elsewhere inside or on the cover.
IF the stain was from Sheila, the killer could have pressed her palm on the page, then wiped her hand clean.
Then there's the accepted theory/evidence that the stain was transferred from the carpet... but you already know my views on that.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 24, 2016, 02:40:46 PM
The Bible was sitting in a pool of blood that formed after Sheila died. There is no way the Bible was sitting there and the blood leaked under it and Sheila's body just happened to fall right next to it.
Moreover, the notion June, Jeremy or anyone else opened the Bible and closed it then dropped it and it happened to open to the same page it previously had been opened to is simply fantasy. Indeed the blood would help keep those specific pages together unless someone intentionally peeled them apart.
Just because June was religious doesn't mean after being seriously wounded that she would pick up the Bible and carry it around. I know many people who are not simply religious in the sense I am but rather fanatical. I can't see any of these fanatics running to grab a Bible to try to read after being shot. In fact much of the fanaticism isn't really about the religion at all but rather so they can feel important or have something to do or to have some purpose. They care about the politics though often petty politics at that. I don't know whether June was fanatical like them or not. People who said June was fanatical were people who had no use for religion so are not reliable sources. Someone like me is in a much better position to assess such. I go to Church every Sunday and holiday, I usher at those masses. I am a member of the knights of Columbus so do charitable work with them and also assist with the planning and execution of our Parish's main fundraiser. I am thus pretty active. People who hate religion altogether could consider that fanaticism. I don't go to Church everyday or pray for hours a day as some do. Nor do I get involved in Bible study or the more social aspects I am result oriented only. Some women in our Parish spend all their waking time involved in Church ministries but a lot of it is social and more about occupying their time. They gossip and have a habit of sticking their noses where they do not belong and trying to control people and things. None of this advances their religious views. I had a run in with one today after Mass while I was setting up for Baptisms. I won't give the particulars but her attitude and behavior was not about religion at all but rather her wanting to control things none of her concern and that she didn't even know anything about.
The men including the priests are very easygoing for the most part and don't make big deals of things except for one fellow usher who is quite stern and says things he should not really say but sometimes it is amusing because he will annoy people who are pains in the ass and you can't help but enjoy seeing them put in their place. He's old so he can get away with it.
Was June one of these politicking pains in the ass? We lack enough info to know but even if she was it would not mean she was necessarily a religious fanatic in the spiritual sense. The ones more fanatical in the spiritual sense are more introspective and less into the politics generally. The ones obsessed with prayer typically view prayer as obviating their need to take part helping people in other ways. They will say they prayed for them as opposed to lifting a finger to do something in the physical sense.
My 15 year old niece was present when the lady was screaming at me giving me grief. She told my family what happened and got my mom started- she said she hated working for women it was much easier working for men and why she would never vote for a woman to become president... Then my niece made us laugh saying she could never be a lesbian because she can't stand girls and their petty drama. You never know what is going to pop out of her mouth, she has no filter.
Scipio I'm not going to pretend that I find it easy to look at the photos and draw any sort of interpretation, let alone correct ones, because I don't.
Is it possible that blood could leak from SC's wounds if officers moved her? I know you don't believe SC was moved but is it possible pathologically based on her wounds? SC's head to the left of NB's bedside cabinet doesn't look right?
I can put my guilty hat on and see things from a different perspective but I do struggle with the bible and burns.
Religion has never played any role in my life whatsoever other that mandatory religious education lessons at school, Sunday school and the Brownies and Guides. I do remember taking the Brownies and Guides very seriously always referring to my handbook about various things ?>)()<
Religion obviously played a significant role in June's life and I can imagine her reaching for her bible in such terrible circumstance to hold as opposed to read.
I did find your post above amusing and you've gone up in the 'like' rankings!
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: scipio_usmc on May 24, 2016, 04:55:22 PM
Scipio I'm not going to pretend that I find it easy to look at the photos and draw any sort of interpretation, let alone correct ones, because I don't.
Is it possible that blood could leak from SC's wounds if officers moved her? I know you don't believe SC was moved but is it possible pathologically based on her wounds? SC's head to the left of NB's bedside cabinet doesn't look right?
I can put my guilty hat on and see things from a different perspective but I do struggle with the bible and burns.
Religion has never played any role in my life whatsoever other that mandatory religious education lessons at school, Sunday school and the Brownies and Guides. I do remember taking the Brownies and Guides very seriously always referring to my handbook about various things ?>)()<
Religion obviously played a significant role in June's life and I can imagine her reaching for her bible in such terrible circumstance to hold as opposed to read.
I did find your post above amusing and you've gone up in the 'like' rankings!
She was moved by the killer. She was dragged flat in order to be able to stick the gun on her and make it appear she shot herself while lying down. That is why there are 2 mutually exclusive blood flows. One flow could only occur while she was seated. The other could only occur while she was lying down. Jeremy only moved her enough to allow her head to clear the table. Your guess is as good as mine as to why he didn't pull her down even further so her head was not next to the table.
All the blood was dry by the time police entered. Nothing they did would result in blood getting anywhere. This is why Mike makes up she was shot after police broke in. Only by making up she died after police broke in would it be possible for blood to change course and get around as police moved her body.
If the Bible had been on the floor then June would likely have bled on it like she did the socks. If the Bible had been there before the pool of blood formed then the blood would have leaked on top of it or around it not under it. There is no way to account for a little blood getting on it, it closing and being reopened to the same exact page and then more blood getting on it after it was reopened other than someone intentionally reopened it to the same page after it was intentionally or accidentally closed and then stuck it in the pool of blood thus getting the additional blood on it. The blood that got on there from sitting in a pool didn't have a mirror image proving it got there after the Bible had been reopened.
That it was closed, reopened to the same exact page and then placed in a pool of blood that formed after Sheila was moved flat but before that pool dried is quite clear. The only thing this tells us is that someone was there moving her body flat and reopened it to stick in the pool of blood. We don't know whether it closed accidentally or intentionally or exactly why it was being done beyond trying to suggest a religious connection of some sort to the deaths. The exact intended motivation doesn't really matter. For the purposes of criminology all that matters is that the body and Bible were moved while the blood was still wet so someone had to be there doing the moving.
June received a serious wound to the head while in bed. The notion she sought out the Bible to sit reading as she was bleeding to death is not credible. This was all a shock not something she was prepared for and understood and faced what was happening. Not that if you are aware that necessarily means you will turn to religion at the end either. When my maternal grandmother was in her final stretch of dying from cancer she stopped praying. She knew the chemo failed and that the end was near so you would think at that point she would be praying to go to heaven or something. She would pray hours a day and watched a religious channel on TV always. She was obsessed "Mother Angelica" had a cult like following. Yet she did neither towards the end. This is not unique. They say there are no atheists in foxholes. I have observed people in harms way praying not to get seriously harmed but if that fails and they are seriously harmed and know they won't make it they don't bother with prayer or even think about it, they think of other things. Even though we expect people to think of religion when very close to death time after time I have encountered people not doing that.
In some ways it is surprising but not if you consider that religion is meant to tell people how to live and also to help people cope with life's stresses. Troubled people are very needy and vulnerable. That is not only how they get mixed up with cults but the kind of people preyed upon by terrorists to become suicide bombers. People who can't cope with life are the kind who commit suicide. It can take the shape of people who can't cope with financial problems, can't cope with being bullied, can't cope with failed relationships,...it is the coward way out when you don't want to hack it anymore. The belief that loved ones are in heaven helps people to cope with the loss of loved ones and the thought of an afterlife makes it easier to accept that you will one day die. This is to help people deal with trials during life. I can't imagine someone dying trying to retrieve a Bible to read or even to hold while dying just seems absurd to me. Now members of some religious cult who were brainwashed into thinking suicide is good and dying int he name of religion holding a Bible or reading it as they wait for poison to take effect or before shooting themselves is about the only way I can see someone seeking out a Bible knowing they are dying. That then is the logical intended suggestion of sticking a Bible near a victim. We know he stuck the gun on her to make it look like she committed suicide. The only logical explanation for the Bible is intending to make it look like there was a religious motivation for the killings.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: adam on May 24, 2016, 09:19:37 PM
She was moved by the killer. She was dragged flat in order to be able to stick the gun on her and make it appear she shot herself while lying down. That is why there are 2 mutually exclusive blood flows. One flow could only occur while she was seated. The other could only occur while she was lying down. Jeremy only moved her enough to allow her head to clear the table. Your guess is as good as mine as to why he didn't pull her down even further so her head was not next to the table.
All the blood was dry by the time police entered. Nothing they did would result in blood getting anywhere. This is why Mike makes up she was shot after police broke in. Only by making up she died after police broke in would it be possible for blood to change course and get around as police moved her body.
If the Bible had been on the floor then June would likely have bled on it like she did the socks. If the Bible had been there before the pool of blood formed then the blood would have leaked on top of it or around it not under it. There is no way to account for a little blood getting on it, it closing and being reopened to the same exact page and then more blood getting on it after it was reopened other than someone intentionally reopened it to the same page after it was intentionally or accidentally closed and then stuck it in the pool of blood thus getting the additional blood on it. The blood that got on there from sitting in a pool didn't have a mirror image proving it got there after the Bible had been reopened.
That it was closed, reopened to the same exact page and then placed in a pool of blood that formed after Sheila was moved flat but before that pool dried is quite clear. The only thing this tells us is that someone was there moving her body flat and reopened it to stick in the pool of blood. We don't know whether it closed accidentally or intentionally or exactly why it was being done beyond trying to suggest a religious connection of some sort to the deaths. The exact intended motivation doesn't really matter. For the purposes of criminology all that matters is that the body and Bible were moved while the blood was still wet so someone had to be there doing the moving.
June received a serious wound to the head while in bed. The notion she sought out the Bible to sit reading as she was bleeding to death is not credible. This was all a shock not something she was prepared for and understood and faced what was happening. Not that if you are aware that necessarily means you will turn to religion at the end either. When my maternal grandmother was in her final stretch of dying from cancer she stopped praying. She knew the chemo failed and that the end was near so you would think at that point she would be praying to go to heaven or something. She would pray hours a day and watched a religious channel on TV always. She was obsessed "Mother Angelica" had a cult like following. Yet she did neither towards the end. This is not unique. They say there are no atheists in foxholes. I have observed people in harms way praying not to get seriously harmed but if that fails and they are seriously harmed and know they won't make it they don't bother with prayer or even think about it, they think of other things. Even though we expect people to think of religion when very close to death time after time I have encountered people not doing that.
In some ways it is surprising but not if you consider that religion is meant to tell people how to live and also to help people cope with life's stresses. Troubled people are very needy and vulnerable. That is not only how they get mixed up with cults but the kind of people preyed upon by terrorists to become suicide bombers. People who can't cope with life are the kind who commit suicide. It can take the shape of people who can't cope with financial problems, can't cope with being bullied, can't cope with failed relationships,...it is the coward way out when you don't want to hack it anymore. The belief that loved ones are in heaven helps people to cope with the loss of loved ones and the thought of an afterlife makes it easier to accept that you will one day die. This is to help people deal with trials during life. I can't imagine someone dying trying to retrieve a Bible to read or even to hold while dying just seems absurd to me. Now members of some religious cult who were brainwashed into thinking suicide is good and dying int he name of religion holding a Bible or reading it as they wait for poison to take effect or before shooting themselves is about the only way I can see someone seeking out a Bible knowing they are dying. That then is the logical intended suggestion of sticking a Bible near a victim. We know he stuck the gun on her to make it look like she committed suicide. The only logical explanation for the Bible is intending to make it look like there was a religious motivation for the killings.
There is a thread on Sheila's legs being pulled after the second shot.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: david1819 on May 29, 2016, 03:32:51 PM
I am not sure what all this idea of letters and numbers in the blood is about.
No one is talking about letters or numbers in blood so far as I saw. When you stick paper over a book cover, photo or even other piece of paper if you push hard enough you will leave an impression of what you wrote on the item that was underneath. The suggestion was that someone was writing with the photo underneath so the photo was left with an impression of numbers or letter that had been written. That is what I got out of their discussion.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Myster on May 29, 2016, 06:25:41 PM
No one is talking about letters or numbers in blood so far as I saw. When you stick paper over a book cover, photo or even other piece of paper if you push hard enough you will leave an impression of what you wrote on the item that was underneath. The suggestion was that someone was writing with the photo underneath so the photo was left with an impression of numbers or letter that had been written. That is what I got out of their discussion.
Yep, spot on... and nipped in the bud before the chief blue fantasist nicked it to claim that Sheila's spirit wrote words begging for forgiveness in her own blood.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: david1819 on May 29, 2016, 07:12:41 PM
Yep, spot on... and nipped in the bud before the chief blue fantasist nicked it to claim that Sheila's spirit wrote words begging for forgiveness in her own blood.
Too late. Several years back he claimed it was Sheila trying to write in blood that police killed her.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Myster on June 13, 2016, 06:13:25 PM
Discovered something from the official site which I don't think has been covered here - a comparison of the original WHF bible with a new exact copy. When the new book is opened at the same stained pages (656-657) as the old one and placed face down, there's a difference between them. At the spine of the new book where the open pages are joined, an imaginary line drawn along the end cover would pass through and bisect the words "HOLY BIBLE" and "INTERNATIONAL". In the crime scene photo however, a similar line would miss those words completely and come below them, which means that the original bible must have been placed face down but opened at later pages than the stained ones, 656 and 657.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Myster on June 13, 2016, 06:16:03 PM
Bible comparison video from the OS...
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Caroline on June 13, 2016, 07:00:00 PM
I think there would be bloody fingerprints all over the bible had she carried it around the room in her hand(s). Having been shot several times beforehand, June's natural instinct would be to feel the wounds, hence the finger prints on her throat. IF the bible stain was from her palm, this might have occurred say, when she pressed her right hand down forcefully on the already opened page if the book was resting on the bedclothes as she was trying to get up. The bible couldn't have been held by her as there's no continuation of that particular stain in the form of bloody fingerprints/smears around the book's top edge and back cover. And when examined there appeared to be no other bloody fingerprints elsewhere inside or on the cover.
IF the stain was from Sheila, the killer could have pressed her palm on the page, then wiped her hand clean.
Then there's the accepted theory/evidence that the stain was transferred from the carpet... but you already know my views on that.
You have to wonder how she managed to open the bible when the cover is clean.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Caroline on June 13, 2016, 07:27:05 PM
You have to wonder how she managed to open the bible when the cover is clean.
Definitely a palm print, with no sign of any bloody fingerprints on the cover had she held firmly onto the book herself, and probably made by Bamber pressing Sheila's palm firmly onto the page.
Although it could equally have been June's. &%+((£
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: Myster on June 13, 2016, 07:55:28 PM
Why would Sheila's prints on the bible mean Jeremy was innocent? No one was battered to death with the bible!
It's the same clueless narrator who stamped her feet and huffed & puffed over Julie Mugford.
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 15, 2016, 04:05:24 AM
Vanezis' testimony where he indicated there was blood outside her hands but not inside and that in his notes when he said blood on palms he meant outside palms:
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: david1819 on June 15, 2016, 06:10:10 PM
Definitely a palm print, with no sign of any bloody fingerprints on the cover had she held firmly onto the book herself, and probably made by Bamber pressing Sheila's palm firmly onto the page.
Although it could equally have been June's. &%+((£
That's assuming her fingers would have to have blood on them while she held it. When she easily could have only her palm contaminated, like Vanezis original autopsy notes sais.
The side of the bible were the palm stains were is also the side the crocheted cloth was found. we can only see one side of this cloth out the pages of the bible. what happened to it I do not know
If her lifeless hand was placed over the page then the blood running down and around her forearm caused by the fatal shots would also have got onto the bible pages due to gravity making the arm come into contact with the pages.
(https://s32.postimg.org/6n8bs81qt/MS23.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 15, 2016, 06:38:31 PM
That's assuming her fingers would have to have blood on them while she held it. When she easily could have only her palm contaminated, like Vanezis original autopsy notes sais.
The side of the bible were the palm stains were is also the side the crocheted cloth was found. we can only see one side of this cloth out the pages of the bible. what happened to it I do not know
If her lifeless hand was placed over the page then the blood running down and around her forearm caused by the fatal shots would also have got onto the bible pages due to gravity making the arm come into contact with the pages.
(https://s32.postimg.org/6n8bs81qt/MS23.jpg)
It is not a palm print it is as stain from sitting in a pool of blood on the carpet.
In any event, the hand and arm are not flat like a sheet of paper. The palm and upper forearm extend out a significant amount more than the wrist and lower forearm. Placing the arm on a flat surface will result in the palm and upper arm touching that surface but the wrist and lower forearm will not be in contact. This is why the blood from her arms didn't get on her gown. Her arms was not flat like a piece of paper. The outer palm and wrist were touching the gown but not the lower forearm.
Moreover with her hand face up one can press the Bible against the palm. You ignore that the wrist is a joint. The hand can be pressed against something all on its own.