Author Topic: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.  (Read 6374 times)

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Offline Myster

Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2016, 07:46:00 AM »
Could June B have had the bible in her hands at some point during the times she was shot after all?

 Reading TFU  Police C. Woodcock's statement, he says he saw that June B had finger prints on her throat ! A palm print on the bible, finger prints on her throat. &%+((£

I think there would be bloody fingerprints all over the bible had she carried it around the room in her hand(s). Having been shot several times beforehand, June's natural instinct would be to feel the wounds, hence the finger prints on her throat.  IF the bible stain was from her palm, this might have occurred say, when she pressed her right hand down forcefully on the already opened page if the book was resting on the bedclothes as she was trying to get up. The bible couldn't have been held by her as there's no continuation of that particular stain in the form of bloody fingerprints/smears around the book's top edge and back cover. And when examined there appeared to be no other bloody fingerprints elsewhere inside or on the cover.

IF the stain was from Sheila, the killer could have pressed her palm on the page, then wiped her hand clean.

Then there's the accepted theory/evidence that the stain was transferred from the carpet... but you already know my views on that.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2016, 02:40:46 PM »
The Bible was sitting in a pool of blood that formed after Sheila died. There is no way the Bible was sitting there and the blood leaked under it and Sheila's body just happened to fall right next to it.

Moreover, the notion June, Jeremy or anyone else opened the Bible and closed it then dropped it and it happened to open to the same page it previously had been opened to is simply fantasy. Indeed the blood would help keep those specific pages together unless someone intentionally peeled them apart.

Just because June was religious doesn't mean after being seriously wounded that she would pick up the Bible and carry it around. I know many people who are not simply religious in the sense I am but rather fanatical. I can't see any of these fanatics running to grab a Bible to try to read after being shot. In fact much of the fanaticism isn't really about the religion at all but rather so they can feel important or have something to do or to have some purpose. They care about the politics though often petty politics at that.  I don't know whether June was fanatical like them or not.  People who said June was fanatical were people who had no use for religion so are not reliable sources.  Someone like me is in a much better position to assess such.  I go to Church every Sunday and holiday, I usher at those masses.  I am a member of the knights of Columbus so do charitable work with them and also assist with the planning and execution of our Parish's main fundraiser. I am thus pretty active. People who hate religion altogether could consider that fanaticism. I don't go to Church everyday or pray for hours a day as some do. Nor do I get involved in Bible study or the more social aspects I am result oriented only.  Some women in our Parish spend all their waking time involved in Church ministries but a lot of it is social and more about occupying their time. They gossip and have a habit of sticking their noses where they do not belong and trying to control people and things. None of this advances their religious views.  I had a run in with one today after Mass while I was setting up for Baptisms.  I won't give the particulars but her attitude and behavior was not about religion at all but rather her wanting to control things none of her concern and that she didn't even know anything about. 

The men including the priests are very easygoing for the most part and don't make big deals of things except for one fellow usher who is quite stern and says things he should not really say but sometimes it is amusing because he will annoy people who are pains in the ass and you can't help but enjoy seeing them put in their place. He's old so he can get away with it.

Was June one of these politicking pains in the ass? We lack enough info to know but even if she was it would not mean she was necessarily a religious fanatic in the spiritual sense.  The ones more fanatical in the spiritual sense are more introspective and less into the politics generally. The ones obsessed with prayer typically view prayer as obviating their need to take part helping people in other ways. They will say they prayed for them as opposed to lifting a finger to do something in the physical sense.   

My 15 year old niece was present when the lady was screaming at me giving me grief. She told my family what happened and got my mom started- she said she hated working for women it was much easier working for men and why she would never vote for a woman to become president... Then my niece made us laugh saying she could never be a lesbian because she can't stand girls and their petty drama. You never know what is going to pop out of her mouth, she has no filter.   

Scipio I'm not going to pretend that I find it easy to look at the photos and draw any sort of interpretation, let alone correct ones, because I don't. 

Is it possible that blood could leak from SC's wounds if officers moved her?  I know you don't believe SC was moved but is it possible pathologically based on her wounds?  SC's head to the left of NB's bedside cabinet doesn't look right? 

I can put my guilty hat on and see things from a different perspective but I do struggle with the bible and burns. 

Religion has never played any role in my life whatsoever other that mandatory religious education lessons at school, Sunday school and the Brownies and Guides.  I do remember taking the Brownies and Guides very seriously always referring to my handbook about various things  ?>)()< 

Religion obviously played a significant role in June's life and I can imagine her reaching for her bible in such terrible circumstance to hold as opposed to read.

I did find your post above amusing and you've gone up in the 'like' rankings!
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2016, 04:55:22 PM »
Scipio I'm not going to pretend that I find it easy to look at the photos and draw any sort of interpretation, let alone correct ones, because I don't. 

Is it possible that blood could leak from SC's wounds if officers moved her?  I know you don't believe SC was moved but is it possible pathologically based on her wounds?  SC's head to the left of NB's bedside cabinet doesn't look right? 

I can put my guilty hat on and see things from a different perspective but I do struggle with the bible and burns. 

Religion has never played any role in my life whatsoever other that mandatory religious education lessons at school, Sunday school and the Brownies and Guides.  I do remember taking the Brownies and Guides very seriously always referring to my handbook about various things  ?>)()< 

Religion obviously played a significant role in June's life and I can imagine her reaching for her bible in such terrible circumstance to hold as opposed to read.

I did find your post above amusing and you've gone up in the 'like' rankings!

She was moved by the killer.  She was dragged flat in order to be able to stick the gun on her and make it appear she shot herself while lying down. That is why there are 2 mutually exclusive blood flows. One flow could only occur while she was seated. The other could only occur while she was lying down. Jeremy only moved her enough to allow her head to clear the table. Your guess is as good as mine as to why he didn't pull her down even further so her head was not next to the table.   

All the blood was dry by the time police entered. Nothing they did would result in blood getting anywhere. This is why Mike makes up she was shot after police broke in. Only by making up she died after police broke in would it be possible for blood to change course and get around as police moved her body.

If the Bible had been on the floor then June would likely have bled on it like she did the socks. If the Bible had been there before the pool of blood formed then the blood would have leaked on top of it or around it not under it. There is no way to account for a little blood getting on it, it closing and being reopened to the same exact page and then more blood getting on it after it was reopened other than someone intentionally reopened it to the same page after it was intentionally or accidentally closed and then stuck it in the pool of blood thus getting the additional blood on it. The blood that got on there from sitting in a pool didn't have a mirror image proving it got there after the Bible had been reopened. 

That it was closed, reopened to the same exact page and then placed in a pool of blood that formed after Sheila was moved flat but before that pool dried is quite clear. The only thing this tells us is that someone was there moving her body flat and reopened it to stick in the pool of blood. We don't know whether it closed accidentally or intentionally or exactly why it was being done beyond trying to suggest a religious connection of some sort to the deaths.  The exact intended motivation doesn't really matter.  For the purposes of criminology all that matters is that the body and Bible were moved while the blood was still wet so someone had to be there doing the moving.

June received a serious wound to the head while in bed. The notion she sought out the Bible to sit reading as she was bleeding to death is not credible.  This was all a shock not something she was prepared for and understood and faced what was happening.  Not that if you are aware that necessarily means you will turn to religion at the end either. When my maternal grandmother was in her final stretch of dying from cancer she stopped praying. She knew the chemo failed and that the end was near so you would think at that point she would be praying to go to heaven or something. She would pray hours a day and watched a religious channel on TV always.  She was obsessed "Mother Angelica" had a cult like following. Yet she did neither towards the end. This is not unique. They say there are no atheists in foxholes. I have observed people in harms way praying not to get seriously harmed but if that fails and they are seriously harmed and know they won't make it they don't bother with prayer or even think about it, they think of other things.  Even though we expect people to think of religion when very close to death time after time I have encountered people not doing that.

In some ways it is surprising but not if you consider that religion is meant to tell people how to live and also to help people cope with life's stresses. Troubled people are very needy and vulnerable. That is not only how they get mixed up with cults but the kind of people preyed upon by terrorists to become suicide bombers. People who can't cope with life are the kind who commit suicide. It can take the shape of people who can't cope with financial problems, can't cope with being bullied, can't cope with failed relationships,...it is the coward way out when you don't want to hack it anymore. The belief that loved ones are in heaven helps people to cope with the loss of loved ones and the thought of an afterlife makes it easier to accept that you will one day die. This is to help people deal with trials during life. I can't imagine someone dying trying to retrieve a Bible to read or even to hold while dying just seems absurd to me.  Now members of some religious cult who were brainwashed into thinking suicide is good and dying int he name of religion holding a Bible or reading it as they wait for poison to take effect or before shooting themselves is about the only way I can see someone seeking out a Bible knowing they are dying.  That then is the logical intended suggestion of sticking a Bible near a victim.  We know he stuck the gun on her to make it look like she committed suicide. The only logical explanation for the Bible is intending to make it look like there was a religious motivation for the killings. 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline adam

Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2016, 09:19:37 PM »
She was moved by the killer.  She was dragged flat in order to be able to stick the gun on her and make it appear she shot herself while lying down. That is why there are 2 mutually exclusive blood flows. One flow could only occur while she was seated. The other could only occur while she was lying down. Jeremy only moved her enough to allow her head to clear the table. Your guess is as good as mine as to why he didn't pull her down even further so her head was not next to the table.   

All the blood was dry by the time police entered. Nothing they did would result in blood getting anywhere. This is why Mike makes up she was shot after police broke in. Only by making up she died after police broke in would it be possible for blood to change course and get around as police moved her body.

If the Bible had been on the floor then June would likely have bled on it like she did the socks. If the Bible had been there before the pool of blood formed then the blood would have leaked on top of it or around it not under it. There is no way to account for a little blood getting on it, it closing and being reopened to the same exact page and then more blood getting on it after it was reopened other than someone intentionally reopened it to the same page after it was intentionally or accidentally closed and then stuck it in the pool of blood thus getting the additional blood on it. The blood that got on there from sitting in a pool didn't have a mirror image proving it got there after the Bible had been reopened. 

That it was closed, reopened to the same exact page and then placed in a pool of blood that formed after Sheila was moved flat but before that pool dried is quite clear. The only thing this tells us is that someone was there moving her body flat and reopened it to stick in the pool of blood. We don't know whether it closed accidentally or intentionally or exactly why it was being done beyond trying to suggest a religious connection of some sort to the deaths.  The exact intended motivation doesn't really matter.  For the purposes of criminology all that matters is that the body and Bible were moved while the blood was still wet so someone had to be there doing the moving.

June received a serious wound to the head while in bed. The notion she sought out the Bible to sit reading as she was bleeding to death is not credible.  This was all a shock not something she was prepared for and understood and faced what was happening.  Not that if you are aware that necessarily means you will turn to religion at the end either. When my maternal grandmother was in her final stretch of dying from cancer she stopped praying. She knew the chemo failed and that the end was near so you would think at that point she would be praying to go to heaven or something. She would pray hours a day and watched a religious channel on TV always.  She was obsessed "Mother Angelica" had a cult like following. Yet she did neither towards the end. This is not unique. They say there are no atheists in foxholes. I have observed people in harms way praying not to get seriously harmed but if that fails and they are seriously harmed and know they won't make it they don't bother with prayer or even think about it, they think of other things.  Even though we expect people to think of religion when very close to death time after time I have encountered people not doing that.

In some ways it is surprising but not if you consider that religion is meant to tell people how to live and also to help people cope with life's stresses. Troubled people are very needy and vulnerable. That is not only how they get mixed up with cults but the kind of people preyed upon by terrorists to become suicide bombers. People who can't cope with life are the kind who commit suicide. It can take the shape of people who can't cope with financial problems, can't cope with being bullied, can't cope with failed relationships,...it is the coward way out when you don't want to hack it anymore. The belief that loved ones are in heaven helps people to cope with the loss of loved ones and the thought of an afterlife makes it easier to accept that you will one day die. This is to help people deal with trials during life. I can't imagine someone dying trying to retrieve a Bible to read or even to hold while dying just seems absurd to me.  Now members of some religious cult who were brainwashed into thinking suicide is good and dying int he name of religion holding a Bible or reading it as they wait for poison to take effect or before shooting themselves is about the only way I can see someone seeking out a Bible knowing they are dying.  That then is the logical intended suggestion of sticking a Bible near a victim.  We know he stuck the gun on her to make it look like she committed suicide. The only logical explanation for the Bible is intending to make it look like there was a religious motivation for the killings.

There is a thread on Sheila's legs being pulled after the second shot.

david1819

  • Guest
Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2016, 03:32:51 PM »
I am not sure what all this idea of letters and numbers in the blood is about.

But I think it may be a case of this


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2016, 04:21:02 PM »
I am not sure what all this idea of letters and numbers in the blood is about.

But I think it may be a case of this


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia


No one is talking about letters or numbers in blood so far as I saw. When you stick paper over a book cover, photo or even other piece of paper if you push hard enough you will leave an impression of what you wrote on the item that was underneath. The suggestion was that someone was writing with the photo underneath so the photo was left with an impression of numbers or letter that had been written. That is what I got out of their discussion.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Myster

Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2016, 06:25:41 PM »
No one is talking about letters or numbers in blood so far as I saw. When you stick paper over a book cover, photo or even other piece of paper if you push hard enough you will leave an impression of what you wrote on the item that was underneath. The suggestion was that someone was writing with the photo underneath so the photo was left with an impression of numbers or letter that had been written. That is what I got out of their discussion.

Yep, spot on... and nipped in the bud before the chief blue fantasist nicked it to claim that Sheila's spirit wrote words begging for forgiveness in her own blood.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

david1819

  • Guest
Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2016, 07:12:41 PM »
Yep, spot on... and nipped in the bud before the chief blue fantasist nicked it to claim that Sheila's spirit wrote words begging for forgiveness in her own blood.

Too late. Several years back he claimed it was Sheila trying to write in blood that police killed her.

Offline Myster

Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2016, 06:13:25 PM »
Discovered something from the official site which I don't think has been covered here - a comparison of the original WHF bible with a new exact copy. When the new book is opened at the same stained pages (656-657) as the old one and placed face down, there's a difference between them. At the spine of the new book where the open pages are joined, an imaginary line drawn along the end cover would pass through and bisect the words "HOLY BIBLE" and "INTERNATIONAL". In the crime scene photo however, a similar line would miss those words completely and come below them, which means that the original bible must have been placed face down but opened at later pages than the stained ones, 656 and 657.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Myster

Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2016, 06:16:03 PM »
Bible comparison video from the OS...
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Caroline

Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2016, 07:00:00 PM »
I think there would be bloody fingerprints all over the bible had she carried it around the room in her hand(s). Having been shot several times beforehand, June's natural instinct would be to feel the wounds, hence the finger prints on her throat.  IF the bible stain was from her palm, this might have occurred say, when she pressed her right hand down forcefully on the already opened page if the book was resting on the bedclothes as she was trying to get up. The bible couldn't have been held by her as there's no continuation of that particular stain in the form of bloody fingerprints/smears around the book's top edge and back cover. And when examined there appeared to be no other bloody fingerprints elsewhere inside or on the cover.

IF the stain was from Sheila, the killer could have pressed her palm on the page, then wiped her hand clean.

Then there's the accepted theory/evidence that the stain was transferred from the carpet... but you already know my views on that.

You have to wonder how she managed to open the bible when the cover is clean.

Offline Caroline

Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2016, 07:27:05 PM »
Bible comparison video from the OS...

Why would Sheila's prints on the bible mean Jeremy was innocent? No one was battered to death with the bible!

Offline Myster

Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2016, 07:50:52 PM »
You have to wonder how she managed to open the bible when the cover is clean.

Definitely a palm print, with no sign of any bloody fingerprints on the cover had she held firmly onto the book herself, and probably made by Bamber pressing Sheila's palm firmly onto the page.

Although it could equally have been June's.  &%+((£
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Myster

Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2016, 07:55:28 PM »
Why would Sheila's prints on the bible mean Jeremy was innocent? No one was battered to death with the bible!

It's the same clueless narrator who stamped her feet and huffed & puffed over Julie Mugford.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: The Bible and the bloodstain thereon.
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2016, 04:05:24 AM »
Vanezis' testimony where he indicated there was blood outside her hands but not inside and that in his notes when he said blood on palms he meant outside palms:

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli