UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on April 22, 2018, 02:31:24 PM
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Did dissociative amnesia play a part in the chaos the night Maddie disappeared?
Some of the reported events which occurred the night Madeleine disappeared are open to interpretation once the actual evidence is examined. The Portuguese police officers who first attended the Ocean Club that night called in the Policia Judiciaria (detectives) because they felt something just wasn't right. According to these GNR officers, the tapas group were scared, jumpy and nervous. The parents were exibiting signs of extreme stress which manifested itself in them wailing on the bed and the floor. They'd all been drinking, they weren't falling over but it was hard to deal with them. It was hard to get any sense out of them about a possible abduction.
Given that background, it is not surprising therefore that people become confused and disorientated. Witnesses recall events differently at the best of times but in the midst of a possible child abduction scenario, panick and fear take over, logic sails merrily out the window, memories become tainted. Once the dust had settled and witness statements had been taken, it became clear that there were many discrepancies between witnesses.
Three events in particular involving Madeleine's parents were to become of particular interest to investigators. The route taken by Gerry McCann between the tapas restaurant and his apartment at around 9pm. The encounter he had with Jeremy Wilkins outside the apartment at about 9.15pm and the report by Kate McCann that when she checked the apartment just after 10pm that she found the children's bedroom window fully open and the outside shutter raised.
GM in his first statement claimed that he had gained entry to his apartment via the front door which required a key to gain entry. His second statement made reference to this event but this time he agreed that entry had been made from the rear of the apartment via an unlocked patio door. Clearly this was an example of memory lapse.
The second event occurred some 15 minutes later after Gerry McCann left the apartment. According to GM, he saw an holidaymaker approaching and crossed the road to chat to him for a few minutes. According to this holidaymaker, identified as Jeremy Wilkins, it was he who crossed the road to speak to GM who remained on the pavement. Another witness and a member of the tapas group, identified as Jane Tanner, corroborated JW's version of the event and claimed that she slipped past both men as they chatted. Clearly, at least one of the three had suffered a memory malfunction.
The final event is the most interesting. The missing child's mother, Kate McCann, has always insisted that when she went to check on the children in the apartment at around 10pm, that she found the curtains billowing in the wind, the bedroom window fully slid across and the window shutter fully raised. Forensic examination of the window and its surrounds however found only Kate McCann's fingerprints on the window and in such a position which suggested that it was she who had opened it. There were no signs that the shutter or window had been tampered with and no evidence whatsoever that any intruder had gained entry to the apartment. Was this yet another example of a memory loss brought about by severe trauma?
Were these events actually examples of a phenomenon called 'dissociative amnesia' or 'memory loss'. Dissociation is a natural response to a trauma over which an individual has no control, it is known that the condition is aggravated by the consumption of alcohol.
Could it be that the trauma suffered by Madeleine's parents on the night she disappeared was sufficient to trigger this condition resulting in loss of some memory of events while others remain confused. In clinical terms, retrograde amnesia sufferers may partially regain memory later, but memories are never regained with anterograde amnesia because they were not encoded properly. Memories from just before the trauma are often completely lost, partly due to the psychological repression of unpleasant memories (psychogenic amnesia), and partly because memories may be incompletely encoded if the event interrupts the normal process of transfer from short-term to long-term memory.
Please discuss.
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Memory block impossible .....Imo
That's how far you have to go to make your theory possible
If the window was open it points to a third party in the, apartment.... Abduction.. Imo
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Memory block impossible .....Imo
That's how far you have to go to make your theory possible
If the window was open it points to a third party in the, apartment.... Abduction.. Imo
Agreed
And that either rubber/plastic gloves were worn, or somone clleaning off all the places where their fingerprints might have been.
I believe the front door was unlocked and opened, then closed, using the key alone. No finger prints would be there then
IMO
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All those who think abduction is impossible need to remember a child was, abducted from her bath in seconds whilst her mother was in another room
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No because it is off topic as is trying to bring vaguely similar cases into the discussion. The topic is evidence of abduction in this case.
I disagree.... Evidence of abduction includes the exclusion of all other scenarios to indirectly prove abduction..
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Memory block impossible .....Imo
That's how far you have to go to make your theory possible
If the window was open it points to a third party in the, apartment.... Abduction.. Imo
You would deny the wailing mullah incidents too had they not been independently recorded, all of which goes to show your own agenda behind your comments.
Temporary memory loss following a trauma or shock is also well documented. The other alternative is pretty obvious. Gerry's inability to remember how he gained entry to 5a around 9pm or which side of the road he was on when he chatted with Jez Wilkins shortly afterwards appears to be yet further examples of unexplained memory loss but you keep on denying it as you usually do.
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You obviously haven't read the thread on temporary memory loss following a trauma. The only other alternative is obvious.
I have... And I think the idea in this case us ridiculous... Are you trying to suggest Kate opened the windows and shutters then she forgot all about it.... Ridiculous speculation imo
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I have... And I think the idea in this case us ridiculous... Are you trying to suggest Kate opened the windows and shutters then she forgot all about it.... Ridiculous speculation imo
Gerry forgot the details of two events that night so why not his Mrs? 8(0(*
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You would deny the wailing mullah incidents too had they not been independently recorded, all of which goes to show your own agenda behind your comments.
Temporary memory loss following a trauma or shock is also well documented. The other alternative is pretty obvious. Gerry's inability to remember how he gained entry to 5a around 9pm or which side of the road he was on when he chatted with Jez Wilkins shortly afterwards appears to be yet further examples of unexplained memory loss but you keep on denying it as you usually do.
Could you provide a cite as to how this could have occurred... I'm afraid afaics you are totally misinformed
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Could you provide a cite as to how this could have occurred... I'm afraid afaics you are totally misinformed
Again it is you who is misinformed. I suggest you read up on emotional memory loss, amnesia and PTSD. Or maybe you can come up with another reason why Jane Tanner and Jeremy Wilkins both disagreed with Gerry McCann's version of events which occurred moments before Maddie disappeared?
Here is a link to get you started... Happy reading 8((()*/
http://www.human-memory.net/disorders_psychogenic.html
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Again it is you who is misinformed. I suggest you read up on emotional memory loss, amnesia and PTSD. Or maybe you can come up with another reason why Jane Tanner and Jeremy Wilkins both disagreed with Gerry McCann's version of events which occurred moments before Maddie disappeared?
Here is a link to get you started... Happy reading
http://www.human-memory.net/disorders_psychogenic.html
The affects are temporary and there is no well documented cases of complete loss of memory if particular events... Your claims are without foundation
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The affects are temporary and there is no well documented cases of complete loss of memory if particular events... Your claims are without foundation
You're obviously out of your depth on that one. In my honest opinion of course. And much that I would like to humour you I really must go. Chaow
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You're obviously out of your depth on that one. In my honest opinion of course. And much that I would like to humour you I really must go. Chaow
From a previous discussion, memory loss resulting from emotional shock or trauma is called psychogenic or dissociative amnesia and can increase with drinking alcohol.
During a traumatic experience such as an accident, disaster or crime victimization, dissociation can help a person tolerate what might otherwise be too difficult to bear. In situations like these, a person may dissociate the memory of the place, circumstances or feelings about of the overwhelming event, mentally escaping from the fear, pain and horror. This may make it difficult to later remember the details of the experience, as reported by many disaster and accident survivors.
For a parent, finding one of your children has disappeared from her bed and has disappeared could well trigger such a condition.
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From a previous discussion, memory loss resulting from emotional shock or trauma is called psychogenic or dissociative amnesia and can increase with drinking alcohol.
It does not produce the effects you and Angelo suggests as you will see if you read the link Angelo posted.
Kate was quite clear about the open window and shutter.. And other details... Your claims do not stack up.. Imo
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It dies not produce the effects you and Angelo suggests as you will see if you read the link Angelo posted.
Kate was quite clear about the open window and shutter.. And other details... Your claims do not stack up.. Imo
Short-term amnesia is a side effect of the condition brought about by sudden horror or trauma. To deny such will be viewed as thread disruption.
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Short term amnesia is a side effect of the condition brought about by sudden horror or trauma. To deny such will be viewed as thread disruption.
Short term amnesia does not last eleven years.
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Short term amnesia does not last eleven years
Fact: Some people never regain their short duration memory loss.
Retrograde amnesia sufferers may partially regain memory later, but memories are never regained with anterograde amnesia because they were not encoded properly.
Memories from just before the trauma are often completely lost, partly due to the psychological repression of unpleasant memories (psychogenic amnesia), and partly because memories may be incompletely encoded if the event interrupts the normal process of transfer from short-term to long-term memory. There is also some evidence that traumatic stress events can actually lead to a long-term physical reduction of the volume of the brain's hippocampus, an organ integrally involved in the making and processing of memories.
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Memory block impossible .....Imo
That's how far you have to go to make your theory possible
If the window was open it points to a third party in the, apartment.... Abduction.. Imo
There are several possibilities for having an open window, and being opened by an abductor is just one of many.
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There are several possibilities for having an open window, and being opened by an abductor is just one of many.
But it is one.... And what other reasons could there be
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Fact: Some people never regain their short duration memory loss.
Retrograde amnesia sufferers may partially regain memory later, but memories are never regained with anterograde amnesia because they were not encoded properly.
Memories from just before the trauma are often completely lost, partly due to the psychological repression of unpleasant memories (psychogenic amnesia), and partly because memories may be incompletely encoded if the event interrupts the normal process of transfer from short-term to long-term memory. There is also some evidence that traumatic stress events can actually lead to a long-term physical reduction of the volume of the brain's hippocampus, an organ integrally involved in the making and processing of memories.
This is absolutely pure speculation to suggest that Kate opened the window and then forgot... It just does not fit... Imo
Am I not, allowed to say that
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This is absolutely pure speculation to suggest that Kate opened the window and then forgot... It just does not fit... Imo
Am I not, allowed to say that
It is a distinct possibility and just as valid as any abduction theory. The fact that Gerry McCann also misremembered events which occurred that night is extremely pertinent to the memory loss theory.
Kate McCann could very well have opened the window and shutter on finding Madeleine missing and then set about searching the apartment before returning to the children's bedroom where she found the curtains billowing. It is not beyond the realms of possibilities and as pointed out earlier, there are no other witnesses to confirm her version of events one way or another.
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It is a distinct possibility and just as valid as any abduction theory.
I don't think it's even a remote possibility.... Am I allowed to say that
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It is a distinct possibility and just as valid as any abduction theory. The fact that Gerry McCann also misremembered events which occurred that night is extremely pertinent to the memory loss theory.
I'm not sure Gerry did misremember any significant events... More likely down to mistranslations... IMO
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But it is one.... And what other reasons could there be
In my theory the window is opened in an attempted burglary.
Others might say Kate opened them, but it is also possible another member of the Tapas group opened them prior to Kate's check.
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I don't think it's even a remote possibility.... Am I allowed to say that
That sounds like an opinion, but that will never overcome the occurrence of a known phenomena.
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That sounds like an opinion, but that will never overcome the occurrence of a known phenomena.
That's why my post is prefaced by.. I think
I've read the article posted by Angelo and john and... IMO... It does not support their claims
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Apparently you too have misremembered previous discussion on this very subject.
I haven't at all... If Kate was suffering from any type of amnesia... Which is unlikely imo... Her memories of the event would be vague and confused.... Kate's, recall of events are quite precise
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I haven't at all... If Kate was suffering from any type of amnesia... Which is unlikely imo... Her memories of the event would be vague and confused.... Kate's, recall of events are quite precise
Surely you would only know that if you were there...................
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I haven't at all... If Kate was suffering from any type of amnesia... Which is unlikely imo... Her memories of the event would be vague and confused.... Kate's, recall of events are quite precise
Why is it unlikely? Gerry suffered memory loss at least twice, one event he subsequently corrected but only after it had been pointed out that it was impossible to enter the apartment via the front door if the key was inside. Did he really regain that memory or was the situation so compelling that he had no choice but to retract?
If both parents suffered partial amnesia memory loss brought about by trauma, what else was forgotten that night.
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Surely you would only know that if you were there...................
Not really for the person there may also be suffering from the same condition, and false memory syndrome subsequently as well.
From these studies memory is not reliable in the long run.
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Not really for the person there may also be suffering from the same condition, and false memory syndrome subsequently as well.
From these studies memory is not reliable in the long run.
The question is, why was none of this ever investigated at the time? Both parents were obviously under severe stress according to the statements of the first GNR responders to the apartment.
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Why is it unlikely? Gerry suffered memory loss at least twice, one event he subsequently corrected but only after it had been pointed out that it was impossible to enter the apartment via the front door if the key was inside. Did he really regain that memory or was the situation so compelling that he had no choice but to retract?
If both parents suffered partial amnesia memory loss brought about by trauma, what else was forgotten that night.
we all forget small details but your idea that kate had a massive amnesia regarding the window and shutters is unrealistic imo...as regards gerry afaiaa the confusion over the door used has been discussed extensively and may well have been confusion on behalf of the translator..as for te key being inside I believe that comes from amarals book...the one that tells us how eddie discovered a dead body under a slab of concrete in jersey
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The question is, why was none of this ever investigated at the time? Both parents were obviously under severe stress according to the statements of the first GNR responders to the apartment.
Maybe they forgot!
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we all forget small details but your idea that kate had a massive amnesia regarding the window and shutters is unrealistic imo...as regards gerry afaiaa the confusion over the door used has been discussed extensively and may well have been confusion on behalf of the translator..as for te key being inside I believe that comes from amarals book...the one that tells us how eddie discovered a dead body under a slab of concrete in jersey
Diverting won't change the known facts. Amnesia remains a distinct possibility.
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Diverting won't change the known facts. Amnesia remains a distinct possibility.
in your opinion...there is no evidence of it in mine
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Maybe they forgot!
The GNR officers certainly didn't forget what they witnessed.
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The question is, why was none of this ever investigated at the time? Both parents were obviously under severe stress according to the statements of the first GNR responders to the apartment.
Perhaps it was not investigated because it was not considered a realistic suggestion... If it was it would apply to every violent crime case
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Temporary memory loss following a trauma or shock is also well documented. The other alternative is pretty obvious. Gerry's inability to remember how he gained entry to 5a around 9pm or which side of the road he was on when he chatted with Jez Wilkins shortly afterwards appears to be yet further examples of unexplained memory loss but you keep on denying it as you usually do.
I've read your quoted, article which explains, two types of stress, related, memory loss
First under stress personal details, such as, pin numbers, may be, difficult to recall
Second with PTSD such as, a, soldier, seeing his, friend blown to bits, the incident may be, blocked
There is, no evidence to suggest Kate would, be confused are the window... You have your opinion... I have mine based, on the, article you quoted
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Yet again, the evidence appears to preclude an entry into the apartment by a stranger intent on an abduction. Taken with the other evidence of the two scent dogs I would suggest the woke and wandered is the preferred theory according to that evidence.
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Yet again, the evidence appears to preclude an entry into the apartment by a stranger intent on an abduction. Taken with the other evidence of the two scent dogs I would suggest the woke and wandered is the preferred theory according to that evidence.
If you read the report on the two scent dogs it does not appear to be particularly reliable imo
First it is suggested that the, second dog may have simply followed the trail of the first and secondly the dogs could have been following a trail laid down earlier in the day
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I do not believe for a moment they had issues, perhaps selective memory. but is has been said to bea good liar you must have a good memory.
I would suggest. the reverse. people remember more details about a lost loved one from the moments before to the days after. I still recall everything about my sisters death. I was very,very young at the time. I can tell you what we did at school that day and what we had for lunch... I can't tell you what I did at work last Wednesday I would need to check my diary and have no clue what I had for lunch.
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I do not believe for a moment they had issues, perhaps selective memory. but is has been said to bea good liar you must have a good memory.
I would suggest. the reverse. people remember more details about a lost loved one from the moments before to the days after. I still recall everything about my sisters death. I was very,very young at the time. I can tell you what we did at school that day and what we had for lunch... I can't tell you what I did at work last Wednesday I would need to check my diary and have no clue what I had for lunch.
What a, sad story..
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I do not believe for a moment they had issues, perhaps selective memory. but is has been said to bea good liar you must have a good memory.
I would suggest. the reverse. people remember more details about a lost loved one from the moments before to the days after. I still recall everything about my sisters death. I was very,very young at the time. I can tell you what we did at school that day and what we had for lunch... I can't tell you what I did at work last Wednesday I would need to check my diary and have no clue what I had for lunch.
Some of what you believe you remember may well be false memories.
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If you read the report on the two scent dogs it does not appear to be particularly reliable imo
First it is suggested that the, second dog may have simply followed the trail of the first and secondly the dogs could have been following a trail laid down earlier in the day
Regardless of whether the check dog followed the scent of the first dog or not, it is standard procedure to deploy the best dog first and follow it up with a check. There is no doubt in my mind that the first dog followed the scent of the article associated with Madeleine which was given to him which as we all know mysteriously dissipated at the car park opposite mini reception. There is only one reason that that could occur IMO.
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Some of what you believe you remember may well be false memories.
And of course those memories which have been suppressed are no longer remembered anyway. Or to put it another way, one cannot remember what one has already forgotten. In traumatic situations memories become disjointed, a bit like a scratched record.
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Regardless of whether the check dog followed the scent of the first dog or not, it is standard procedure to deploy the best dog first and follow it up with a check. There is no doubt in my mind that the first dog followed the scent of the article associated with Madeleine which was given to him which as we all know mysteriously dissipated at the car park opposite mini reception. There is only one reason that that could occur IMO.
I've tried to find d the pj report on this... Perhaps someone could help... I don't think the dog handler was, as convinced as you are.. What date was this, search carried out... It could well be a trail laid, down on a previous day
The, fact is the phone final report says, woke, and wandered was highly unlikely and they have more information than we, do
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And of course those memories which have been suppressed are no longer remembered anyway.
But thus is not hidden... Kate clearly remembers the window being ipenpp
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A reminder of the opening post.
Did dissociative amnesia play a part in the chaos the night Maddie disappeared?
Some of the reported events which occurred the night Madeleine disappeared are open to interpretation once the actual evidence is examined. The Portuguese police officers who first attended the Ocean Club that night called in the Policia Judiciaria (detectives) because they felt something just wasn't right. According to these GNR officers, the tapas group were scared, jumpy and nervous. The parents were exibiting signs of extreme stress which manifested itself in them wailing on the bed and the floor. They'd all been drinking, they weren't falling over but it was hard to deal with them. It was hard to get any sense out of them about a possible abduction.
Given that background, it is not surprising therefore that people become confused and disorientated. Witnesses recall events differently at the best of times but in the midst of a possible child abduction scenario, panick and fear take over, logic sails merrily out the window, memories become tainted. Once the dust had settled and witness statements had been taken, it became clear that there were many discrepancies between witnesses.
Three events in particular involving Madeleine's parents were to become of particular interest to investigators. The route taken by Gerry McCann between the tapas restaurant and his apartment at around 9pm. The encounter he had with Jeremy Wilkins outside the apartment at about 9.15pm and the report by Kate McCann that when she checked the apartment just after 10pm that she found the children's bedroom window fully open and the outside shutter raised.
GM in his first statement claimed that he had gained entry to his apartment via the front door which required a key to gain entry. His second statement made reference to this event but this time he agreed that entry had been made from the rear of the apartment via an unlocked patio door. Clearly this was an example of memory lapse.
The second event occurred some 15 minutes later after Gerry McCann left the apartment. According to GM, he saw an holidaymaker approaching and crossed the road to chat to him for a few minutes. According to this holidaymaker, identified as Jeremy Wilkins, it was he who crossed the road to speak to GM who remained on the pavement. Another witness and a member of the tapas group, identified as Jane Tanner, corroborated JW's version of the event and claimed that she slipped past both men as they chatted. Clearly, at least one of the three had suffered a memory malfunction.
The final event is the most interesting. The missing child's mother, Kate McCann, has always insisted that when she went to check on the children in the apartment at around 10pm, that she found the curtains billowing in the wind, the bedroom window fully slid across and the window shutter fully raised. Forensic examination of the window and its surrounds however found only Kate McCann's fingerprints on the window and in such a position which suggested that it was she who had opened it. There were no signs that the shutter or window had been tampered with and no evidence whatsoever that any intruder had gained entry to the apartment. Was this yet another example of a memory loss brought about by severe trauma?
Were these events actually examples of a phenomenon called 'dissociative amnesia' or 'memory loss'. Dissociation is a natural response to a trauma over which an individual has no control, it is known that the condition is aggravated by the consumption of alcohol.
Could it be that the trauma suffered by Madeleine's parents on the night she disappeared was sufficient to trigger this condition resulting in loss of some memory of events while others remain confused. In clinical terms, retrograde amnesia sufferers may partially regain memory later, but memories are never regained with anterograde amnesia because they were not encoded properly. Memories from just before the trauma are often completely lost, partly due to the psychological repression of unpleasant memories (psychogenic amnesia), and partly because memories may be incompletely encoded if the event interrupts the normal process of transfer from short-term to long-term memory.
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I've tried to find d the pj report on this... Perhaps someone could help... I don't think the dog handler was, as convinced as you are.. What date was this, search carried out... It could well be a trail laid, down on a previous day
The, fact is the phone final report says, woke, and wandered was highly unlikely and they have more information than we, do
The PJ final report is flawed in many ways IMO. The woke and wandered and met with an accident theory is the only one which has evidence to support it.
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A reminder of the opening post.
Did dissociative amnesia play a part in the chaos the night Maddie disappeared?
Some of the reported events which occurred the night Madeleine disappeared are open to interpretation once the actual evidence is examined. The Portuguese police officers who first attended the Ocean Club that night called in the Policia Judiciaria (detectives) because they felt something just wasn't right. According to these GNR officers, the tapas group were scared, jumpy and nervous. The parents were exibiting signs of extreme stress which manifested itself in them wailing on the bed and the floor. They'd all been drinking, they weren't falling over but it was hard to deal with them. It was hard to get any sense out of them about a possible abduction.
Given that background, it is not surprising therefore that people become confused and disorientated. Witnesses recall events differently at the best of times but in the midst of a possible child abduction scenario, panick and fear take over, logic sails merrily out the window, memories become tainted. Once the dust had settled and witness statements had been taken, it became clear that there were many discrepancies between witnesses.
Three events in particular involving Madeleine's parents were to become of particular interest to investigators. The route taken by Gerry McCann between the tapas restaurant and his apartment at around 9pm. The encounter he had with Jeremy Wilkins outside the apartment at about 9.15pm and the report by Kate McCann that when she checked the apartment just after 10pm that she found the children's bedroom window fully open and the outside shutter raised.
GM in his first statement claimed that he had gained entry to his apartment via the front door which required a key to gain entry. His second statement made reference to this event but this time he agreed that entry had been made from the rear of the apartment via an unlocked patio door. Clearly this was an example of memory lapse.
The second event occurred some 15 minutes later after Gerry McCann left the apartment. According to GM, he saw an holidaymaker approaching and crossed the road to chat to him for a few minutes. According to this holidaymaker, identified as Jeremy Wilkins, it was he who crossed the road to speak to GM who remained on the pavement. Another witness and a member of the tapas group, identified as Jane Tanner, corroborated JW's version of the event and claimed that she slipped past both men as they chatted. Clearly, at least one of the three had suffered a memory malfunction.
The final event is the most interesting. The missing child's mother, Kate McCann, has always insisted that when she went to check on the children in the apartment at around 10pm, that she found the curtains billowing in the wind, the bedroom window fully slid across and the window shutter fully raised. Forensic examination of the window and its surrounds however found only Kate McCann's fingerprints on the window and in such a position which suggested that it was she who had opened it. There were no signs that the shutter or window had been tampered with and no evidence whatsoever that any intruder had gained entry to the apartment. Was this yet another example of a memory loss brought about by severe trauma?
Were these events actually examples of a phenomenon called 'dissociative amnesia' or 'memory loss'. Dissociation is a natural response to a trauma over which an individual has no control, it is known that the condition is aggravated by the consumption of alcohol.
Could it be that the trauma suffered by Madeleine's parents on the night she disappeared was sufficient to trigger this condition resulting in loss of some memory of events while others remain confused. In clinical terms, retrograde amnesia sufferers may partially regain memory later, but memories are never regained with anterograde amnesia because they were not encoded properly. Memories from just before the trauma are often completely lost, partly due to the psychological repression of unpleasant memories (psychogenic amnesia), and partly because memories may be incompletely encoded if the event interrupts the normal process of transfer from short-term to long-term memory.
The PJ we're, called because it became clear their may have been a, serious crime... Imo
Kate, says, she, saw, the, windows, and shutters open.... So no amnesia....
It's, a big supposition to suggest she imagined it
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The PJ final report is flawed in many ways IMO. The woke and wandered and met with an accident theory is the only one which has evidence to support it.
SY do not, agree, with you and, again they have, all the evidence
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But thus is not hidden... Kate clearly remembers the window being ipenpp
There is a very good reason for that and the later claim by family that the shutter and window had been forced which as we all now know was false.
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There is a very good reason for that and the later claim by family that the shutter and window had been forced which as we all now know was false.
The windiw being forced is quite a reasonable description
...since kate thought it had been opened from the outside
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The windiw being forced is quite a reasonable description
...since kate thought it had been opened from the outside
In my opinion it was all part of the abducted narrative.
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In my opinion it was all part of the abducted narrative.
Yeah red herring... dramatic affect! imo
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Yeah red herring... dramatic affect! imo
What was a red herring? What was done for dramatic effect?
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What was a red herring? What was done for dramatic effect?
There is nothing wrong in challenging a persons story. And as there are no independent witnesses, this is a story and it comes across as a made up one, big scene -big drama about someone breaking in through a window (knowing she left a door unlocked ) and stealing her daughter... knowing her daugher woke up during the night on a few occasions and could have wandered off...
this was IMO pure PR - because how would it look on the news that a child was left alone and wandered off by herself during the night and disappeared... parents were out wining and dining as they did every night- even though the child complained to them about it.
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There is nothing wrong in challenging a persons story. And as there are no independent witnesses, this is a story and it comes across as a made up one, big scene -big drama about someone breaking in through a window (knowing she left a door unlocked ) and stealing her daughter... knowing her daugher woke up during the night on a few occasions and could have wandered off...
this was IMO pure PR - because how would it look on the news that a child was left alone and wandered off by herself during the night and disappeared... parents were out wining and dining as they did every night- even though the child complained to them about it.
Are you of the opinion that Madeleine woke and wandered but that her parents only pretended to be distressed by this turn of events?
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Are you of the opinion that Madeleine woke and wandered but that her parents only pretended to be distressed by this turn of events?
Yes what is your view?
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Yes what is your view?
My question was addressed to Miss Taken but thanks for your reply. Can I ask why you think the McCanns could only pretend to be distressed when they found Madeleine missing rather than actually be hugely distressed, as most parents would? I think she was taken btw.
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Are you of the opinion that Madeleine woke and wandered but that her parents only pretended to be distressed by this turn of events?
Could you point out where MTI made this claim?
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Could you point out where MTI made this claim?
I was asking for clarification hence the use of the question mark. On this thread she seems to believe it's likely Madeleine woke and wandered. On another thread she seems to suggest the McCanns put on a show of distress purely for the benefit of the police. Now can you see why I asked?
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It is possible that false/reconstructed memory issues played a significant part is how events were reported. Scientific research has demonstrated these effects and how memories may be constructed from events, and discussions after the event.
For instance the slamming door.
A false memory type explanation may involve the sound of a door slamming.
But, the door that may have slammed was the front door, not any bedroom door, i.e. open patio doors to enter the apartment and the front door could slam if it had been left open.
This could create a strong memory of a slamming door in a person's mind.
Combine this with severe stress, and the mind trying to make sense of events, then memories could be reconstructed and a narrative created.
All entirely innocent, but not what actually happened.
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It is possible that false/reconstructed memory issues played a significant part is how events were reported. Scientific research has demonstrated these effects and how memories may be constructed from events, and discussions after the event.
For instance the slamming door.
A false memory type explanation may involve the sound of a door slamming.
But, the door that may have slammed was the front door, not any bedroom door, i.e. open patio doors to enter the apartment and the front door could slam if it had been left open.
This could create a strong memory of a slamming door in a person's mind.
Combine this with severe stress, and the mind trying to make sense of events, then memories could be reconstructed and a narrative created.
All entirely innocent, but not what actually happened.
Not being sure which door slammed isn't really false memory syndrome it's confusion. I'm sure there was some confusion on the night which would account for slight discrepancies.... I don't see it would result in Kate seeing open windows and shutters which we're in fact closed
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Could you point out where MTI made this claim?
Ofcourse I never made any such claim. VS is playing at 'inventing' what he thought I thought he thought I said game.
And I am not playing up to him. My post needs no clarification at all. They are answers to posts which I Chose to reply to and many others can read what is said without an executive summary and glossary at either end.
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Yes what is your view?
My view on dissociative amnesia play a part in the chaos the night Maddie disappeared?
My view is No! selective memory perhaps...
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My view on dissociative amnesia play a part in the chaos the night Maddie disappeared?
My view is No! selective memory perhaps...
Define the term "selective memory" in the context you used the word please?
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Yes what is your view?
Are we actually allowed to ask that question?
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There is nothing libellous about challenging a persons story. And as there are no independent witnesses this is a story and it comes across as a made up one, big scene -big drama about someone breaking in through a window (knowing she left a door unlocked ) and stealing her daughter... knowing her daugher woke up during the night on a few occasions and could have wandered off...
this was IMO pure PR - because how would it look on the news that a child was left alone and wandered off by herself during the night and disappeared... parents were out wining and dining as they did every night- even though the child complained to them about it.
I was asking MTI for her view actually but it came across wrongly, sorry.
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My question was addressed to Miss Taken but thanks for your reply. Can I ask why you think the McCanns could only pretend to be distressed when they found Madeleine missing rather than actually be hugely distressed, as most parents would? I think she was taken btw.
Taken after she got out or taken from her bedroom because, to remind you, the former has independent evidence to support it while the latter is bereft of any evidence. The abduction theory is plausible but I fear it was an abduction from the street outside IMHO.
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It is possible that false/reconstructed memory issues played a significant part is how events were reported. Scientific research has demonstrated these effects and how memories may be constructed from events, and discussions after the event.
For instance the slamming door.
A false memory type explanation may involve the sound of a door slamming.
But, the door that may have slammed was the front door, not any bedroom door, i.e. open patio doors to enter the apartment and the front door could slam if it had been left open.
This could create a strong memory of a slamming door in a person's mind.
Combine this with severe stress, and the mind trying to make sense of events, then memories could be reconstructed and a narrative created.
All entirely innocent, but not what actually happened.
Not to mention the added factor of alcohol which we know can contribute to false memory syndrome or dissociative amnesia.
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Not being sure which door slammed isn't really false memory syndrome it's confusion. I'm sure there was some confusion on the night which would account for slight discrepancies.... I don't see it would result in Kate seeing open windows and shutters which we're in fact closed
A suggestion could be that she entered the apartment, found Madeleine missing, opened the window and shutter to look outside, lapsed into a state of terror/trauma, went off to search the rest of the apartment and returned to the bedroom to find the curtains billowing in the wind. The combination of alcohol and trauma can play silly tricks on the mind. The added factor of feeling guilt at having left the children alone could also have been a contributing factor in creating a false memory of what actually occurred. I'm not saying this happened but it is a distinct possibility given the evidence that no intruder was involved.
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Not to mention the added factor of alcohol which we know can contribute to false memory syndrome or dissociative amnesia.
According to wiki... The FSM syndrome is controversial and may not be as clear cut a phenomena as you think