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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Angelo222 on May 04, 2018, 10:44:11 AM
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I have my doubts that we will ever find out what happened to Madeleine McCann. Whoever was involved in secreting her away eleven years ago made bloody sure that they covered their tracks completely. Luck was certainly on their side what with there being no witnesses to what occurred, a delayed call to police and with strategically positioned CCTV camera footage being recorded over before police got to them.
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I tend to agree and have said in the past it'll end with something along the lines of person/persons unknown removed Madeleine from 5a with out leaving a trace to her whereabouts, still seen nothing to change my mind.
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I don't suppose the families of the victims of the Golden State Killer / East Area Rapist ever thought they would find out who committed those atrocious crimes but it now looks like the case has been solved - after 40 years. Never say never.
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I don't suppose the families of the victims of the Golden State Killer / East Area Rapist ever thought they would find out who committed those atrocious crimes but it now looks like the case has been solved - after 40 years. Never say never.
I don't deny miracles can happen but even if she was found alive and well tomorrow she will never be the same girl who disappeared eleven years ago.
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I don't suppose the families of the victims of the Golden State Killer / East Area Rapist ever thought they would find out who committed those atrocious crimes but it now looks like the case has been solved - after 40 years. Never say never.
Do you suppose that the HO will keep the funding going for such a scenario?
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I don't deny miracles can happen but even if she was found alive and well tomorrow she will never be the same girl who disappeared eleven years ago.
That's quite likely but a different subject to that which is being discussed.
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Do you suppose that the HO will keep the funding going for such a scenario?
What, for 40 years? I very much doubt it! But that doesn't mean case closed, never to be revisited in the future.
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Yes.
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I don't suppose the families of the victims of the Golden State Killer / East Area Rapist ever thought they would find out who committed those atrocious crimes but it now looks like the case has been solved - after 40 years. Never say never.
In that case they had DNA and as techniques improved they were able to make a match. In Madeleine's case do they have any DNA, I don't think so.
We might think Madeleine has forgotten her previous life, but there may still be a spark there that encourages her to look into the McCann case.
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In that case they had DNA and as techniques improved they were able to make a match. In Madeleine's case do they have any DNA, I don't think so.
We might think Madeleine has forgotten her previous life, but there may still be a spark there that encourages her to look into the McCann case.
What makes you think she would even be bothered if she has a new settled life with people she loves? If you were left alone night after night in an alien environment would you care?
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In that case they had DNA and as techniques improved they were able to make a match. In Madeleine's case do they have any DNA, I don't think so.
We might think Madeleine has forgotten her previous life, but there may still be a spark there that encourages her to look into the McCann case.
The probability is that she has no life to remember.
The idea that she is living a life of comfort with some loving family is just fantasy in my opinion.
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Yes.
I like your optimism faith.
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The probability is that she has no life to remember.
The idea that she is living a life of comfort with some loving family is just fantasy in my opinion.
We must never forget whose sheer stupidity brought about this fiasco.
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What, for 40 years? I very much doubt it! But that doesn't mean case closed, never to be revisited in the future.
Who know's one red top rag was using a family spokesman as saying the funding could even be extended if needed, they've only just started this tranche for heavens sake.
THE INVESTIGATION into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann could be granted more than the fresh £150,000 round of funding if police deem there is “still work to be done”, a family spokesman has said.
Star on line for reference.
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In that case they had DNA and as techniques improved they were able to make a match. In Madeleine's case do they have any DNA, I don't think so.
We might think Madeleine has forgotten her previous life, but there may still be a spark there that encourages her to look into the McCann case.
Every case is different, there was another case a while back of a kidnapped child escaping her captor after many many years in captivity. Can't remember the precise details but it was longer than 11 years. Cases can be solved without DNA evidence.
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Yes.
Are you expecting one of the protagonists you suspect of finally confessing or do you think there is other tangible evidence that has been gathered or still out there to be gathered? If so, I would be curious to know the nature of such evidence. We can rule out CCTV can't we? We can rule out the only known eye-witnesses that suggest ed perhaps it was one of the key protagonists (the police are no longer pursuing this line of enquiry), we can be fairly sure if a raft of new witnesses placing the protagonist in PdL acting suspiciously had come forward then the protagonist in question would have to be made an arguido in order to be questioned about it, something which is unlikely to be achieved without being sensationally leaked to the world's media, a body dug up now is unlikely to contain any forensic clue pointing to the protagonist(s) without there already being a valid reason for it to be there, and so what does that leave us..?
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Who know's one red top rag was using a family spokesman as saying the funding could even be extended if needed, they've only just started this tranche for heavens sake.
Star on line for reference.
It means nothing - it's the Star, it's a "could be". So what?
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Are you expecting one of the protagonists you suspect of finally confessing or do you think there is other tangible evidence that has been gathered or still out there to be gathered? If so, I would be curious to know the nature of such evidence. We can rule out CCTV can't we? We can rule out the only known eye-witnesses that suggest ed perhaps it was one of the key protagonists (the police are no longer pursuing this line of enquiry), we can be fairly sure if a raft of new witnesses placing the protagonist in PdL acting suspiciously had come forward then the protagonist in question would have to be made an arguido in order to be questioned about it, something which is unlikely to be achieved without being sensationally leaked to the world's media, a body dug up now is unlikely to contain any forensic clue pointing to the protagonist(s) without there already being a valid reason for it to be there, and so what does that leave us..?
A situation where nobody is brought to trial because of insufficient evidence to gain a conviction.
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A situation where nobody is brought to trial because of insufficient evidence to gain a conviction.
I was asking Faithlilly who is convinced we will get a resolution to this case.
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I was asking Faithlilly who is convinced we will get a resolution to this case.
Consider my reply as a freebie then ?{)(**
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I don't suppose the families of the victims of the Golden State Killer / East Area Rapist ever thought they would find out who committed those atrocious crimes but it now looks like the case has been solved - after 40 years. Never say never.
As Peter Hogg found to his cost after 8 years, then on the other hand:
Diane Jones 30+ years and counting with no case brought.
Ann Noblett 60 years with no case brought so there is every chance of her sexual assault and murder being a "scot-free" now.
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Are you expecting one of the protagonists you suspect of finally confessing or do you think there is other tangible evidence that has been gathered or still out there to be gathered? If so, I would be curious to know the nature of such evidence. We can rule out CCTV can't we? We can rule out the only known eye-witnesses that suggest ed perhaps it was one of the key protagonists (the police are no longer pursuing this line of enquiry), we can be fairly sure if a raft of new witnesses placing the protagonist in PdL acting suspiciously had come forward then the protagonist in question would have to be made an arguido in order to be questioned about it, something which is unlikely to be achieved without being sensationally leaked to the world's media, a body dug up now is unlikely to contain any forensic clue pointing to the protagonist(s) without there already being a valid reason for it to be there, and so what does that leave us..?
I am expecting an outcome. who that will manifest itself we will all just have to wait and see.
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I am expecting an outcome. who that will manifest itself we will all just have to wait and see.
Upon what do you pin your expectations other than blind faith?
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As Peter Hogg found to his cost after 8 years, then on the other hand:
Diane Jones 30+ years and counting with no case brought.
Ann Noblett 60 years with no case brought so there is every chance of her sexual assault and murder being a "scot-free" now.
Maybe the case will be solved, maybe it won't - who knows, it's a daft question to start a thread about in the first place IMO.
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Maybe the case will be solved, maybe it won't - who knows, it's a daft question to start a thread about in the first place IMO.
And yet 20% of the responses are from you
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What makes you think she would even be bothered if she has a new settled life with people she loves? If you were left alone night after night in an alien environment would you care?
Does that imply she remembers being left alone when she was nearly 4?
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The probability is that she has no life to remember.
The idea that she is living a life of comfort with some loving family is just fantasy in my opinion.
You still can't rule it out.
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Every case is different, there was another case a while back of a kidnapped child escaping her captor after many many years in captivity. Can't remember the precise details but it was longer than 11 years. Cases can be solved without DNA evidence.
There have been several where the kidnapped child escapes. Have there been cases where the "adopted" child fully integrates in the family and hence has no need to escape?
There have been cases where children have been swapped at birth and they don't want to go back with their real parents.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-42743982
Switched at nearly 4 would be an odd situation.
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You still can't rule it out.
Of course not, until we get the body, but I wouldn't put any money on her turning up alive.
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Of course not, until we get the body, but I wouldn't put any money on her turning up alive.
Odds would be 100 million to 1 or something like that.
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Upon what do you pin your expectations other than blind faith?
Somebody with a conscience might emerge from the shadows yet although that would require the right conditions which clearly don't yet exist.
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Odds would be 100 million to 1 or something like that.
I wouldn't put it that high Rob, maybe 50 to 1?
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And yet 20% of the responses are from you
So what?
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So what?
You declared the thread was pointless, yet contributed 20% of the posts.
Can we assume therefore that 20% of all your posts are pointless?
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You declared the thread was pointless, yet contributed 20% of the posts.
Can we assume therefore that 20% of all your posts are pointless?
On a point of accuracy I said the question was daft, not pointless. Furthermore, I naturally assumed you thought all my posts were daft or pointless anyway so by all means include these responses if you have to but you don't need my permission to do so.
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What makes you think she would even be bothered if she has a new settled life with people she loves? If you were left alone night after night in an alien environment would you care?
She wasn't alone.
The environment was familiar to her
To all intents and purposes, the children were checked regularly, by family or friends who they knew.
Way better than the checking that some of you (at a guess) had when you holidayed at Butlins as children. Your parents left it to a stranger cycling around and listening at the chalet door, theoretically every half hour. [/quote]
If your parents did this to you, do you think they were negligent or really bad parents? The Mccanns and close friends checked, IN the room and not from outside, every half hour.
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Of course not, until we get the body, but I wouldn't put any money on her turning up alive.
So now there is a body, is there?
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She wasn't alone.
The environment was familiar to her
To all intents and purposes, the children were checked regularly, by family or friends who they knew.
Way better than the checking that some of you (at a guess) had when you holidayed at Butlins as children. Your parents left it to a stranger cycling around and listening at the chalet door, theoretically every half hour.
Do you think she felt any safer with the younger twins sleeping in the same room?
The checked regularly claim was shown to be a lie Sadie. Mrs Fenn witnessed the children's distress for over an hour two nights before Madeleine disappeared.
No sensible parent will leave a child on its own never mind do so for over an hour so your attempt at mitigating the parents blame won't work.
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So now there is a body, is there?
As Jassi mentioned the possibility of her turning up alive, the statement is perfectly legitimate.
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As Jassi mentioned the possibility of her turning up alive, the statement is perfectly legitimate.
Logic has it she is one or the other.
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Do you think she felt any safer with the younger twins sleeping in the same room?
The checked regularly claim was shown to be a lie Sadie. Mrs Fenn witnessed the children's distress for over an hour two nights before Madeleine disappeared.
No sensible parent will leave a child on its own never mind do so for over an hour so your attempt at mitigating the parents blame won't work.
Angelo.
No-one knows for sure whose child or children Mrs Fenn heard IMO. This has been well discussed before.
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Angelo.
No-one knows for sure whose child or children Mrs Fenn heard IMO. This has been well discussed before.
Yes we do know and your constant attempts to rewrite history won't work. Mrs Fenn stated categorically that the moment the McCanns opened THEIR patio door the CRYING STOPPED. Go work that out!!!
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Yes we do know and your constant attempts to rewrite history won't work. Mrs Fenn stated categorically that the moment the McCanns opened THEIR patio door the CRYING STOPPED. Go work that out!!!
How would Mrs Fenn have known who was entering or exiting via the patio door?
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
"She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering."
That comment implies that she knew the parents hadn't heard the child crying. How could that be, if the crying continued up to the point the patio door was opened?
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How would Mrs Fenn have known who was entering or exiting via the patio door?
She lived permanently above the apartment and would have been very familiar with all comings and goings. I can just imagine her sitting there in the stillness of the night listening to all the sounds from below.
(https://www.websleuths.com/forums/cache.php?img=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F_Dt3aEQy4rKc%2FTOwK4naL52I%2FAAAAAAAABpg%2F5HWpQY0PyZ8%2Fs1600%2FPic%252B1.JPG)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Dt3aEQy4rKc/TO1nciUaT5I/AAAAAAAABp4/AAKI1uFYzkA/s1600/Pic%2B12.JPG)
Mrs Fenn standing on her balcony which was immediately above apartment 5a.
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She lived permanently above the apartment and would have been very familiar with all comings and goings.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Dt3aEQy4rKc/TO1nciUaT5I/AAAAAAAABp4/AAKI1uFYzkA/s1600/Pic%2B12.JPG)
Mrs Fenn standing on her balcony which was immediately above apartment 5a.
After dark, from her sitting room, she could have seen precisely what going on downstairs? Even on her balcony, she couldn't have seen if anyone was sitting on the patio underneath her & she certainly didn't tell the PJ she saw people going in & out the side gate during the week. So- how did she know the parents (plural) didn't hear one of their children crying on the Tuesday night?
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After dark, from her sitting room, she could have seen precisely what going on downstairs? Even on her balcony, she couldn't have seen if anyone was sitting on the patio underneath her & she certainly didn't tell the PJ she saw people going in & out the side gate during the week. So- how did she know the parents (plural) didn't hear one of their children crying on the Tuesday night?
Because the crying went on for over an hour until the parents returned. As you know, she telephoned her friend to ask her advice as to whether she should intervene and Alpert reception. We also know she had to go out the following evening because she was so perturbed by the event.
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Because the crying went on for over an hour until the parents returned. As you know, she telephoned her friend to ask her advice as to whether she should intervene and Alpert reception. We also know she had to go out the following evening because she was so perturbed by the event.
Do you have cites for most of the content of your post, please?
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Do you have cites for most of the content of your post, please?
Its all there in the files and has been previously discussed on here several times.
Tue. 1 May: Mrs Fenn upset by crying from apartment below which went on for over an hour.
Wed. 2 May: Mrs Fenn goes out to spend evening with her friend.
Thur. 3 May: Mrs Fenn at home and offers to phone police when told child had gone missing.
It was the morning of the 3rd May that Kate McCann reported that Madeleine had made the "cried" remark.
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snipped
"When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.
As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.
That night she contacted a friend called EDNA GLYN, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23.00, telling her about the situation, who was not surprised at the childs crying.
She did not have anything to report for the 2nd May, because she was only home at night"
No dispute she stated she heard crying for an hour. Where are the parts saying she asked EG about intervening or alerting reception and that she went out the following night because she was so perturbed?
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Yes we do know and your constant attempts to rewrite history won't work. Mrs Fenn stated categorically that the moment the McCanns opened THEIR patio door the CRYING STOPPED. Go work that out!!!
Please do not insult me.
No-one knows for sure whose child was crying when Mrs Fenn heard crying.
1) Most elderly people have hearing loss and if mainly in one ear, her hearing would be distorted and she would hear sounds that she believed to be from a certain direction, when it was from another direction altogether
2) It was the wrong night to the night that Madeleine talked about. It was May 1st when Mrs Fenn heard the crying and not May 2nd that Madeleine talked about. Wrong night!
3) Had Madeleine and S**n been crying then Mrs Fenn would presumably have heard two children crying. She only heard one. Yet another anomoly
4) According to her statement, Mrs Fenn had never heard the ?Mccann? patio doors being opened other than on May 1st. Strange that she only heard them then. Makes me wonder if it was someone elses door that was being opened.
5) Do we catagorically know whether The Paynes remembered to switch their listening device on. Were the batteries good?
I am not claiming that my queries abouit possible events are correct, BUT there is TOO MUCH DOUBT TO CATAGORICALLY BLAME The Mccanns for the crying child on May 1st ... ... and then in such uncertain circumstances to claim that no-one checked the Mccann children that night for at least an hour and a quarter
My personal thoughts are that Mrs Fenn suffered mono-lateral hearing loss and consequently misunderstood the direction that the crying was coming from ... and The Paynes listening device was either accidentally switched off ... or battery dead.
But we just dont know, do we? Certainly unsafe to change dates and assume stuff that we do not know.
And very UNJUST, IMO, to say the the Mccanns were away for at least an hour and a quarter, based upon insufficient evidence.
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Please do not insult me.
No-one knows for sure whose child was crying when Mrs Fenn heard crying.
1) Most elderly people have hearing loss and if mainly in one ear, her hearing would be distorted and she would hear sounds that she believed to be from a certain direction, when it was from another direction altogether
2) It was the wrong night to the night that Madeleine talked about. It was May 1st when Mrs Fenn heard the crying and not May 2nd that Madeleine talked about. Wrong night!
3) Had Madeleine and S**n been crying then Mrs Fenn would presumably have heard two children crying. She only heard one. Yet another anomoly
4) According to her statement, Mrs Fenn had never heard the ?Mccann? patio doors being opened other than on May 1st. Strange that she only heard them then. Makes me wonder if it was someone elses door that was being opened.
5) Do we catagorically know whether The Paynes remembered to switch their listening device on. Were the batteries good?
I am not claiming that my queries abouit possible events are correct, BUT there is TOO MUCH DOUBT TO CATAGORICALLY BLAME The Mccanns for the crying child on May 1st ... ... and then in such uncertain circumstances to claim that no-one checked the Mccann children that night for at least an hour and a quarter
My personal thoughts are that Mrs Fenn suffered mono-lateral hearing loss and consequently misunderstood the direction that the crying was coming from ... and The Paynes listening device was either accidentally switched off ... or battery dead.
But we just dont know, do we? Certainly unsafe to change dates and assume stuff that we do not know.
And very UNJUST, IMO, to say the the Mccanns were away for at least an hour and a quarter, based upon insufficient evidence.
So now some has to have hearing loss and technology not working to reduce blame on the McCanns.
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Please do not insult me.
No-one knows for sure whose child was crying when Mrs Fenn heard crying.
1) Most elderly people have hearing loss and if mainly in one ear, her hearing would be distorted and she would hear sounds that she believed to be from a certain direction, when it was from another direction altogether
2) It was the wrong night to the night that Madeleine talked about. It was May 1st when Mrs Fenn heard the crying and not May 2nd that Madeleine talked about. Wrong night!
3) Had Madeleine and S**n been crying then Mrs Fenn would presumably have heard two children crying. She only heard one. Yet another anomoly
4) According to her statement, Mrs Fenn had never heard the ?Mccann? patio doors being opened other than on May 1st. Strange that she only heard them then. Makes me wonder if it was someone elses door that was being opened.
5) Do we catagorically know whether The Paynes remembered to switch their listening device on. Were the batteries good?
I am not claiming that my queries abouit possible events are correct, BUT there is TOO MUCH DOUBT TO CATAGORICALLY BLAME The Mccanns for the crying child on May 1st ... ... and then in such uncertain circumstances to claim that no-one checked the Mccann children that night for at least an hour and a quarter
My personal thoughts are that Mrs Fenn suffered mono-lateral hearing loss and consequently misunderstood the direction that the crying was coming from ... and The Paynes listening device was either accidentally switched off ... or battery dead.
But we just dont know, do we? Certainly unsafe to change dates and assume stuff that we do not know.
And very UNJUST, IMO, to say the the Mccanns were away for at least an hour and a quarter, based upon insufficient evidence.
I think you raise a very good point Sadie - just how reliable was the Payne's baby monitor for they admit never checking their kids, so they never had an actual event that tested the machine IMO.
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I think you raise a very good point Sadie - just how reliable was the Payne's baby monitor for they admit never checking their kids, so they never had an actual event that tested the machine IMO.
Fortunately they didn't lose either of their children so the question of the effectiveness of baby listening devices didn't arise
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I think you raise a very good point Sadie - just how reliable was the Payne's baby monitor for they admit never checking their kids, so they never had an actual event that tested the machine IMO.
That is an interesting concept.
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That is an interesting concept.
indeed it is...
with the revelation of Tanner man being removed and the varied time-line which allowed for him to exist with a jimmied shutter/opendoor entry exit. We need to ask IF we believe Gerry and his adoring dada moment. If the children never had a physical check by anyone since being put to bed. That is a very long time for a child to leave the apartment and 'go missing'? if we believe the parents had no input in her disappearance.
The last night DP claimed he saw MBM was strange to say the least.
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indeed it is...
with the revelation of Tanner man being removed and the varied time-line which allowed for him to exist with a jimmied shutter/opendoor entry exit. We need to ask IF we believe Gerry and his adoring dada moment. If the children never had a physical check by anyone since being put to bed. That is a very long time for a child to leave the apartment and 'go missing'? if we believe the parents had no input in her disappearance.
The last night DP claimed he saw MBM was strange to say the least.
You argument seemed to lack detail. In fact I couldn't understand it.
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indeed it is...
with the revelation of Tanner man being removed and the varied time-line which allowed for him to exist with a jimmied shutter/opendoor entry exit. We need to ask IF we believe Gerry and his adoring dada moment. If the children never had a physical check by anyone since being put to bed. That is a very long time for a child to leave the apartment and 'go missing'? if we believe the parents had no input in her disappearance.
The last night DP claimed he saw MBM was strange to say the least.
I always considered that absolute rubbish - very much a case of over-egging the pudding and simple oozing sentimentality and insincerity IMO
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I think you raise a very good point Sadie - just how reliable was the Payne's baby monitor for they admit never checking their kids, so they never had an actual event that tested the machine IMO.
What makes you think they didn't test it?
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What makes you think they didn't test it?
In my opinion they probably did.
Do I remember an account that one of the other couples had a monitor but decided not to use it because the range was a bit iffy?
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What makes you think they didn't test it?
Did they say they tested it? I know Jane Tanner tested theirs and their's didn't work.
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Did they say they tested it? I know Jane Tanner tested theirs and their's didn't work.
Too far?
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Did they say they tested it? I know Jane Tanner tested theirs and their's didn't work.
Didn't work or lacked the range ?
Maybe they should have RTFM?
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If the alarm didn't work because of the distance, that should have warning enough that the distance was too great to leave their children unattended. IMO
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If the alarm didn't work because of the distance, that should have warning enough that the distance was too great to leave their children unattended. IMO
I don't know why my post was swiped. but the evidence clear, they planned to leave their children alone every night while they wined and dined BEFORE they left the UK. Claiming they felt it was safe is an afterthought. Because why take a baby alarm at all?
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getting back on topic...who knows we may find out what happeend .........or we might just find out more information. IMO the best chance of this happening is having SY involved and hopefully we will learn more when the investigation reaches its conclusion
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Too far?
From memory it was "quality".
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I don't know why my post was swiped. but the evidence clear, they planned to leave their children alone every night while they wined and dined BEFORE they left the UK. Claiming they felt it was safe is an afterthought. Because why take a baby alarm at all?
The question that intrigues me is why the parties other than the Paynes chose not to take a baby monitor of sufficient spec to handle the range to the Tapas. Complete with a function to monitor that the handset was in communication with the main part of the monitor.