Author Topic: 'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'  (Read 40524 times)

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Offline faithlilly

Re: 'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'
« Reply #285 on: January 15, 2018, 11:22:50 PM »
At that stage, why should she even have a thought of them being drugged or sedated ?  They were away on holiday FGS

If the children had been sedated at tea by the time they got to the apartment they would certainly have been unnaturally sleepy and certainly too sleepy to have milk and read books. Can you suggest to me Sadie what sedative could be put in a child's food or drink that would be so slow acting that the full effect would only be felt after at least two hours ?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 12:13:51 AM by Faithlilly »
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Robittybob1

Re: 'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'
« Reply #286 on: January 15, 2018, 11:26:06 PM »
If the children had been sedated at tea by the time they got to the apartment they would certainly be unnaturally sleepy and certainly too sleepy to have milk and read books. Can you suggest to me Sadie what sedative could be put in a child's food or drink that would be so slow acting that the full effect would only be felt after at least two hours ?
Years ago I did have a look at the list of possible sedatives it was over 50 drugs long.  It would be an enormous task to answer a question like that.
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Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: 'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'
« Reply #287 on: January 18, 2018, 03:44:26 PM »
Years ago I did have a look at the list of possible sedatives it was over 50 drugs long.  It would be an enormous task to answer a question like that.

A trained Anaesthetist would know. As the measure would have to be accurate to prevent overdose or reaction to a drug. the person would need know the weight ,build of a child to give accurate measure.
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline G-Unit

Re: 'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'
« Reply #288 on: January 18, 2018, 05:26:30 PM »
A trained Anaesthetist would know. As the measure would have to be accurate to prevent overdose or reaction to a drug. the person would need know the weight ,build of a child to give accurate measure.

Sedating children is a job for a specialist, not an amateur. When medics do it they keep a very close eye on the child because it's risky.

Having said that, there are some medicines which people use to send their kids to sleep on flights without a second thought, it seems.

Who would have thought that for many people, this simple decision to sedate my daughter with an antihistamine was a dangerous abuse of my parental power? But many mothers, like me, believe it’s common sense.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2305529/Why-I-drug-children-airplanes-We-know-hell-bawling-toddlers-flights-But-mums-controversial-solution-.html#ixzz54Yew4RyG
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: 'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'
« Reply #289 on: January 18, 2018, 06:54:28 PM »
A trained Anaesthetist would know. As the measure would have to be accurate to prevent overdose or reaction to a drug. the person would need know the weight ,build of a child to give accurate measure.
We would have to be talking about off label use of these drugs.  The types of drugs an anaesthetist would use in the UK would not be available to Kate in Portugal, and there would be no training given in off label use so I think the assertion "a trained Anaesthetist would know" is wrong. 
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Offline misty

Re: 'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'
« Reply #290 on: January 18, 2018, 11:06:14 PM »
We would have to be talking about off label use of these drugs.  The types of drugs an anaesthetist would use in the UK would not be available to Kate in Portugal, and there would be no training given in off label use so I think the assertion "a trained Anaesthetist would know" is wrong.

Ketamine is safe to use as an anaesthetic for children & is used for recreational purposes (presumably not illegal in Portugal). It can be used intra-muscular as well as IV.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: 'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'
« Reply #291 on: January 19, 2018, 07:30:39 AM »
Ketamine is safe to use as an anaesthetic for children & is used for recreational purposes (presumably not illegal in Portugal). It can be used intra-muscular as well as IV.
What would make you think it isn't illegal to use Ketamine as a recreational drug in Portugal?

Wikipedia on the recreational use of Ketmine:
"Recreational use[edit]

Ketamine poured onto glass and left to dry.
Recreational use of ketamine was documented in the early 1970s in underground literature (e.g. The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers[164]). It was used in psychiatric and other academic research through the 1970s, culminating in 1978 with the publishing of psychonaut John Lilly's The Scientist, and Marcia Moore and Howard Alltounian's Journeys into the Bright World, which documented the unusual phenomenology of ketamine intoxication.[165] The incidence of non-medical ketamine use increased through the end of the century, especially in the context of raves and other parties.[166][167][168][169][142] Its emergence as a club drug differs from other club drugs (e.g., MDMA), however, due to its anesthetic properties (e.g., slurred speech, immobilization) at higher doses;[142] in addition, reports of ketamine being sold as "ecstasy" are common.[170] In the 1993 book E for Ecstasy[171] (about the uses of the street drug Ecstasy in the UK), the writer, activist, and Ecstasy advocate Nicholas Saunders highlighted test results showing that certain consignments of the drug also contained ketamine. Consignments of Ecstasy known as "Strawberry" contained what Saunders described as a "potentially dangerous combination of ketamine, ephedrine, and selegiline", as did a consignment of "Sitting Duck" Ecstasy tablets.[172]

The use of ketamine as part of a "post-clubbing experience" has also been documented.[173] Ketamine's rise in the dance culture was most rapid in Hong Kong by the end of the 1990s.[142]

Ketamine use as a recreational drug has been implicated in deaths globally, with more than 90 deaths in England and Wales in the years of 2005–2013.[174] They include accidental poisonings, drownings, traffic accidents, and suicides.[174] The majority of deaths were among young people.[175] This has led to increased regulation (e.g., upgrading ketamine from a Class C to a Class B banned substance in the U.K.).[176]

Unlike the other well-known dissociatives phencyclidine (PCP) and dextromethorphan (DXM), ketamine is very short-acting. It takes effect within about 10 minutes,[177] while its hallucinogenic effects last 60 minutes when insufflated or injected and up to two hours when ingested orally.[178]

At anesthetic doses – under-dosaged from a medical point of view – ketamine produces a dissociative state, characterised by a sense of detachment from one's physical body and the external world which is known as depersonalization and derealization.[179] At sufficiently high doses, users may experience what is called the "K-hole", a state of extreme dissociation with visual and auditory hallucinations.[180] John C. Lilly, Marcia Moore and D. M. Turner (amongst others) have written extensively about their own entheogenic use of, and psychonautic experiences with ketamine.[181] Both Moore and Turner died prematurely (due to hypothermia and drowning respectively) during presumed unsupervised ketamine use.[182]

Because of its ability to cause confusion and amnesia, ketamine can leave users vulnerable to date rape.[177][138]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine#Recreational_use
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Offline Admin

Re: 'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'
« Reply #292 on: January 19, 2018, 12:34:29 PM »
A reminder to all posters that appropriate language should be used when commenting.  Far too many posts still require moderator intervention so please consider carefully what you post.  It is always useful to deploy the preview option before making your comments public.

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« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 12:38:51 PM by Admin »

Offline Brietta

Re: 'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'
« Reply #293 on: January 20, 2018, 01:01:17 AM »
What would make you think it isn't illegal to use Ketamine as a recreational drug in Portugal?

Wikipedia on the recreational use of Ketmine:
"Recreational use[edit]

Ketamine poured onto glass and left to dry.
Recreational use of ketamine was documented in the early 1970s in underground literature (e.g. The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers[164]). It was used in psychiatric and other academic research through the 1970s, culminating in 1978 with the publishing of psychonaut John Lilly's The Scientist, and Marcia Moore and Howard Alltounian's Journeys into the Bright World, which documented the unusual phenomenology of ketamine intoxication.[165] The incidence of non-medical ketamine use increased through the end of the century, especially in the context of raves and other parties.[166][167][168][169][142] Its emergence as a club drug differs from other club drugs (e.g., MDMA), however, due to its anesthetic properties (e.g., slurred speech, immobilization) at higher doses;[142] in addition, reports of ketamine being sold as "ecstasy" are common.[170] In the 1993 book E for Ecstasy[171] (about the uses of the street drug Ecstasy in the UK), the writer, activist, and Ecstasy advocate Nicholas Saunders highlighted test results showing that certain consignments of the drug also contained ketamine. Consignments of Ecstasy known as "Strawberry" contained what Saunders described as a "potentially dangerous combination of ketamine, ephedrine, and selegiline", as did a consignment of "Sitting Duck" Ecstasy tablets.[172]

The use of ketamine as part of a "post-clubbing experience" has also been documented.[173] Ketamine's rise in the dance culture was most rapid in Hong Kong by the end of the 1990s.[142]

Ketamine use as a recreational drug has been implicated in deaths globally, with more than 90 deaths in England and Wales in the years of 2005–2013.[174] They include accidental poisonings, drownings, traffic accidents, and suicides.[174] The majority of deaths were among young people.[175] This has led to increased regulation (e.g., upgrading ketamine from a Class C to a Class B banned substance in the U.K.).[176]

Unlike the other well-known dissociatives phencyclidine (PCP) and dextromethorphan (DXM), ketamine is very short-acting. It takes effect within about 10 minutes,[177] while its hallucinogenic effects last 60 minutes when insufflated or injected and up to two hours when ingested orally.[178]

At anesthetic doses – under-dosaged from a medical point of view – ketamine produces a dissociative state, characterised by a sense of detachment from one's physical body and the external world which is known as depersonalization and derealization.[179] At sufficiently high doses, users may experience what is called the "K-hole", a state of extreme dissociation with visual and auditory hallucinations.[180] John C. Lilly, Marcia Moore and D. M. Turner (amongst others) have written extensively about their own entheogenic use of, and psychonautic experiences with ketamine.[181] Both Moore and Turner died prematurely (due to hypothermia and drowning respectively) during presumed unsupervised ketamine use.[182]

Because of its ability to cause confusion and amnesia, ketamine can leave users vulnerable to date rape.[177][138]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine#Recreational_use

If Ketamine is available in Portugal legitimately it may very well be used as a recreational drug ... which would place it amongst other recreational drugs the use of which in most cases has been decriminalised for drug users.

Portugal: When Heroin Was King

By Danna Harman

Snip
And, following this logic, Portugal proceeded to take the revolutionary step of decriminalizing all illicit drugs, from marijuana thru heroin — becoming the first such country in the world to do so.

“What was unique was that, for the first time ever, there was a focus on the rights of drug users,” says Caitlin Hughes, from the Australian National Drug and Alcohol Research Centre, who has long studied Portugal’s drug policies. “That, and a willingness to take a risk even if it was unclear that it would work.”

This month, the country quietly marked the decade anniversary of those groundbreaking drug laws, and turned its attention to assessing what has, and has not been accomplished.

**

“To begin with, it’s decriminalization, not legalization,” says Goulao, now president of the Ministry of Health’s Institute of Drugs and Drugs Addiction, or as he is widely known, Portugal’s drug czar.

Drugs are and remain illegal in Portugal, he explains, sitting down in his sunny Lisbon office, taking out his drug of choice — a cigarette — and lighting up. This means, that, in theory at least, anyone using drugs, including tourists, can and will be picked up by police.

It is what happens next that is unique. Instead of being sent to a criminal court, offenders are given three days to present themselves before one of the Health Ministry’s special panels, compromised of psychologists, doctors, social workers and judges.

The panel evaluates each case and makes recommendations. Anyone found with more than the quantity deemed “reasonable” for ten days of personal use (for example, one gram of heroine, 10 of opium, 25 of cannabis etc) is sent into the criminal justice system, where they can be and are prosecuted and punished for trafficking.

Among the others, a differentiation is made — between “addicts” and “casual users.” Those deemed to be casual users get off with a warning or maybe a fine, usually between 50-60 euros, while “addicts,” are directed to one of the country’s 79 treatment centers where they can, if they want, get all forms of help, from counseling to methadone replacement treatment.

In 2008, the last year for which figures are available, more than 40,000 people went though these treatment programs. The bill is footed by the Ministry of Health to the tune of about €50 million a year, with an additional €20 million provided through a charity funded by Portugal’s national lotteries.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/danna-harman/when-heroin-was-king-ten-_b_897474.html


The above is taken from an informative article giving the resulting effect of the revolution on one aspect of Portuguese life.
It certainly gives one food for thought relevant to two aspects of drug usage in Portugal when Madeleine went missing ...
  • the fact the police did not immediately give consideration to the sleepiness of the twins
  • the failure by the police to recognise the properties of Calpol and to assume it was a killer sedative
In my opinion the implementation of their ability to exercise their role as demanded by the State must have been seriously impaired by their lack of working knowledge on drugs or the inability to source it.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline misty

Re: 'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'
« Reply #294 on: January 20, 2018, 02:55:36 AM »
It's important to differentiate between a sedative & an anaesthetic & the way they are administered. Ketamine is used in paediatrics & can be administered by inter-muscular means. It was legal in the UK until 2005 when it was given Class C drug status.
For those who dismiss the use of chloroform, perhaps the drug choice of ravers is a safer alternative for potential use in drugging a child,
Feel free to discuss the issue further here or have a whinge elsewhere. Your choice.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 10:15:33 AM by Angelo222 »

Offline Robittybob1

Re: 'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'
« Reply #295 on: January 20, 2018, 03:19:56 AM »
It's important to differentiate between a sedative & an anaesthetic & the way they are administered. Ketamine is used in paediatrics & can be administered by inter-muscular means. It was legal in the UK until 2005 when it was given Class C drug status.
For those who dismiss the use of chloroform, perhaps the drug choice of ravers is a safer alternative for potential use in drugging a child,
Feel free to discuss the issue further here or have a whinge elsewhere. Your choice.
You continue to surprise me Misty!   "chloroform, perhaps the drug choice of ravers"  I had no idea that that was the case.  There is not much on the internet connecting the two.
 
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Offline misty

Re: 'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'
« Reply #296 on: January 20, 2018, 03:21:34 AM »
You continue to surprise me Misty!   "chloroform, perhaps the drug choice of ravers"  I had no idea that that was the case.  There is not much on the internet connecting the two.
To clarify
comma after chloroform, Ketamine used to be a drug choice for ravers.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: 'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'
« Reply #297 on: January 20, 2018, 03:35:09 AM »
To clarify
comma after chloroform, Ketamine used to be a drug choice for ravers.
So the sentence is "For those who dismiss the use of chloroform, Ketamine, perhaps the drug choice of ravers, is a safer alternative for potential use in drugging a child,...."

Still a surprising statement for anyone to make.  You seem to be saying that from a point of personal knowledge.  I never took you as a raver but time moves on.  "Safer alternative for potential use in drugging a child",  how did you figure that out? 
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.