The phone call

[Caroline]

There are many positions that need accounting for and the soc image only depicts one of them:

1.  SC's position upon the first bullet hitting -
2.  SC's positions between the first non-fatal bullet hitting and all those positions, however subtle, before the moment the second bullet hit
3.  SC's position at the moment the second bullet hit
4.  SC's positions, however subtle, following the second fatal bullet hitting and her final resting position
5.   SC's position when first observed by first respondents which should correspond with 4 above - We know this by his description and her head could not have been raised.
6.  SC's position when photographed

- Both pathologists have SC sitting partially upright for both gsw's Yes at the time of shooting - not after!

- Both pathologists were unable to give a precise time interval between the two shots.  It ranged from a few seconds to a few minutes. Unless they were there, it would be pretty impossible to know that.

- Both pathologists ruled out SC standing up at any stage based on the blood staining

- Prof Knight said blood vessels contract for a few seconds until blood starts to exit.  I will find his testimony for his exact words. And?

The time line is as follows:

Approx 7.30 pm - First respondents found SC
Approx 8.30 pm - Dr Craig certified death
Approx 10.30 pm - Images taken by DC Bird

Inconsistencies

- From Dr Craig:

There was a quantity of dried blood which had come  apparently from her mouth and there was what appeared to be an entry wound in her throat. I have already posted this

- From A/PS Woodcock (First respondent/member of firearms team)

I was aware that Sheila BAMBER was lying flat on her back with her head slightly raised as it was against a bedside locker.  She had what appeared to be two bullet holes under her chin and blood leaking from both sides of her mouth down her cheeks. Exactly, which wouldn't happen if her head were raised and how could he see the bullet holes? Her head being raised would force her chin forward obscuring one or both wounds.

- Unlike Dr Craig, who quickly moved through the farmhouse certifying deaths before leaving, A/PS Woodcock was in the farmhouse for several hours from making the farmhouse safe to showing senior officers around and removing the rifle from SC's body to make it safe. And?

- A note exists from other officers which I'll try to locate confirming their initial recollections of SC's position does not correspond with soc images. Because they were looking at images NOT the CS and there is distortion due to the different angles of the camera.

- The image that Caroline has posted above does not include all the blood staining to SC's person and nightdress.  It is obvious that SC's head was at some stage in her neck so to speak evidenced by a void pattern on the top right hand corner of her nightdress where blood has trailed from her wounds but bypassed some of the fabric.  Its also clear blood pooled around her armpit and has at some stage leaked onto the carpet but the stain to the carpet doesn't correspond to the soc image. Because Sheila was moved but prior to the raid team entering! Who does that leave?

- Caroline identified that the large blood stain on the carpet and the large blood stain on the open page of the bible do not correspond. They don't because the stain is on the wrong page to have originated from the carpet. The large stain most likely came from the back of her nightdress - see image below - it follows a similar pattern - you can see where is could have transferred from the collar etc., which is evidence she was moved but there was no reason for the police to do so and actually, every reason why they wouldn't.

- The blood stains trailing over SC'arm do not correspond with the blood stains trailing on the note sticking out of the bible - I don't think the spot of blood on the note has anything to do with the trail on SC's arm but the bible is on top of her are so was obviously placed their after death.

[Caroline]

No.  All that can be said for sure is that SC's head was flat to the floor when she was photographed at circa 10.30 am.  This was some 3 hours after firearms team entered and numerous others were milling around.

And also from the blood which was described by Woodcock as emanating from the corners of her mouth.

[Caroline]

I agree we do all remember things differently.

Mid 80's blood stain analysis was in its infancy.

A blood stain analyst and pathologist would now be able to work out what happened.

They aren't magicians Holly - they would simply provide yet another opinion.

[ISpyWithMyEye]

No.  All that can be said for sure is that SC's head was flat to the floor when she was photographed at circa 10.30 am.  This was some 3 hours after firearms team entered and numerous others were milling around.

So you’re implying Sheila was in a different position and spot when the police raided?

You’re calling them liars — Because they police officers who found Sheila described her as being in that same exact position as she was photographed later.

The police had no NEED or desire to move her. Why would they? For what reason?

IF they’d have moved Sheila (despite not being allowed to even TOUCH her at that time) and her head was raised up against the cupboard as you’re desperately trying to convince people, the huge swell of blood in her throat would have poured out her mouth as they moved her head and would have gushed DOWN all over her chest area and carpet: that blood would have been fluid and fresh too, so what happened to all that escaped blood? There’s no photographs of it and I’m sure the police dint throw Sheila’s nightdress into the washing machine for a “quick wash”!

[ISpyWithMyEye]

He is also saying something about the angle of her head not right.

That’s because Sheila’s head WAS at an angle; it was raised up; and she had a huge hematoma on the right side of her neck which caused a massive swelling and strange shape. THAT’S what the PO was referring to, it’s obvious

[ISpyWithMyEye]

Prof MacDonell is a US based blood stain analyst.

Interestingly his report contradicts with the two pathologists in that in his opinion the blood staining rules out SC standing or sitting when shot!

If nothing else it shows like most aspects of the case it's a mess and requires reviewing by experts taking a multi-discipline approach.  Pathologists are not biologists/blood stain analysts and biologists/bsa's are not pathologists.  It requires both working together.

Which they did, Holly

[Caroline]

If Sheila's legs were pulled (by Bamber), it would ruche the back of her nightdress - the pattern from the bloodstain on the carpet matches the pattern on the back of her nightdress?

[ISpyWithMyEye]

I agree we do all remember things differently.

Mid 80's blood stain analysis was in its infancy.

A blood stain analyst and pathologist would now be able to work out what happened.

You’re wayyyyy out, Holly.

Blood analysis was most certainly NOT in its infancy in the 1980s, Holly!

Landsteiner actually received the 1930 Nobel Prize in Physiology of Medicine for his discovery of blood types which brought a new brilliant tool to forensic science.

In 1930!

It was then, in 1930, for the first time that forensic scientists could definitely compare blood EVIDENCE found at crime scenes and match them to the blood of a suspect.

[Caroline]

You’re wayyyyy out, Holly.

Blood analysis was most certainly NOT in its infancy in the 1980s, Holly!

Landsteiner actually received the 1930 Nobel Prize in Physiology of Medicine for his discovery of blood types which brought a new brilliant tool to forensic science.

In 1930!

It was then, in 1930, for the first time that forensic scientists could definitely compare blood EVIDENCE found at crime scenes and match them to the blood of a suspect.

https://prezi.com/p/qorkcutrc4u9/0103-the-history-of-forensic-science-blood-splatter-analysis/

[ISpyWithMyEye]

https://prezi.com/p/qorkcutrc4u9/0103-the-history-of-forensic-science-blood-splatter-analysis/

Thank you for that, Caroline

Holly, would you like to comment on that? You said blood analysis was in its infancy when the WHF murders took place in 1985...

Here’s evidence that you’re wrong, so feel free to disagree....