Author Topic: The phone call  (Read 20612 times)

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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: The phone call
« Reply #75 on: April 27, 2020, 10:24:24 PM »
It doesn't!  Both pathologists have SC sitting partially upright.  First respondent A/PS Woodcock found SC's head slightly raised against the bedside cabinet.  SC was interfered with after first respondents entered evidenced by soc images showing her head flat to the floor.  Forensic scientist Martyn Ismail gave evidence that following the second gsw SC's head would have fallen back against the bedside cabinet and he went to say she was pulled by her feet and her head fell flat to the floor.  It was the movement of her head that caused dislodged blood pooled in the back of her throat to trail from the sides of her mouth.  Gsw's cause bleeding internally and externally.
Are you of the opinion that no blood would have escaped her mouth directly after she shot herself?  If so why would that be?
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Caroline

Re: The phone call
« Reply #76 on: April 27, 2020, 10:41:52 PM »
Are you of the opinion that no blood would have escaped her mouth directly after she shot herself?  If so why would that be?

The blood was definitely there when Woodcock found her, because he mentioned it.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: The phone call
« Reply #77 on: April 27, 2020, 10:51:16 PM »
The blood was definitely there when Woodcock found her, because he mentioned it.
He was the first to see her?  Then if Holly is correct he must have watched it ooze out of her mouth but failed to mention this detail.  Why would that have been?
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Caroline

Re: The phone call
« Reply #78 on: April 27, 2020, 11:00:37 PM »
He was the first to see her?  Then if Holly is correct he must have watched it ooze out of her mouth but failed to mention this detail.  Why would that have been?

Because it was there before he arrived  8((()*/

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The phone call
« Reply #79 on: April 28, 2020, 10:39:13 AM »
There are many positions that need accounting for and the soc image only depicts one of them:

1.  SC's position upon the first bullet hitting
2.  SC's positions between the first non-fatal bullet hitting and all those positions, however subtle, before the moment the second bullet hit
3.  SC's position at the moment the second bullet hit
4.  SC's positions, however subtle, following the second fatal bullet hitting and her final resting position
5.   SC's position when first observed by first respondents which should correspond with 4 above
6.  SC's position when photographed

- Both pathologists have SC sitting partially upright for both gsw's

- Both pathologists were unable to give a precise time interval between the two shots.  It ranged from a few seconds to a few minutes

- Both pathologists ruled out SC standing up at any stage based on the blood staining

- Prof Knight said blood vessels contract for a few seconds until blood starts to exit.  I will find his testimony for his exact words.

The time line is as follows:

Approx 7.30 pm - First respondents found SC
Approx 8.30 pm - Dr Craig certified death
Approx 10.30 pm - Images taken by DC Bird

Inconsistencies

- From Dr Craig:

There was a quantity of dried blood which had come  apparently from her mouth and there was what appeared to be an entry wound in her throat.

- From A/PS Woodcock (First respondent/member of firearms team)

I was aware that Sheila BAMBER was lying flat on her back with her head slightly raised as it was against a bedside locker.  She had what appeared to be two bullet holes under her chin and blood leaking from both sides of her mouth down her cheeks.

- Unlike Dr Craig, who quickly moved through the farmhouse certifying deaths before leaving, A/PS Woodcock was in the farmhouse for several hours from making the farmhouse safe to showing senior officers around and removing the rifle from SC's body to make it safe.

- A note exists from other officers which I'll try to locate confirming their initial recollections of SC's position does not correspond with soc images.

- The image that Caroline has posted above does not include all the blood staining to SC's person and nightdress.  It is obvious that SC's head was at some stage in her neck so to speak evidenced by a void pattern on the top right hand corner of her nightdress where blood has trailed from her wounds but bypassed some of the fabric.  Its also clear blood pooled around her armpit and has at some stage leaked onto the carpet but the stain to the carpet doesn't correspond to the soc image.

- Caroline identified that the large blood stain on the carpet and the large blood stain on the open page of the bible do not correspond.

- The blood stains trailing over SC'arm do not correspond with the blood stains trailing on the note sticking out of the bible.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 11:29:47 AM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: The phone call
« Reply #80 on: April 28, 2020, 11:14:04 AM »
I don't doubt the scientific facts at all.  This is the reason I buy into testimony from prosecution expert Martyn Ismail that when SC sustained the second gsw her head fell back against the bedside cabinet.  This aligns with testimony from first respondent A/PS Woodcock who made a statement in Sep to this effect. Both contradict soc images which rules out JB moving SC.

Dr Vanezis and Prof Knight observed trails of blood from SC's gsw's and mouth running in opposite directions ie blood from gsw's running vertically from her neck and horizontally from her mouth.  (Although Dr V does describe the direction of the blood running from the mouth as vertical?).



But when Sheila was found her head was on the floor by the bedside cabinet.

No-one (except JB) saw whether Sheila’s head banged against the cabinet — everyone else is just speculating 

And surely there’d have been some kind of gsr or blood spatter on the cabinet had her head banged back against it? Did they find any of her hairs on the cabinet? Any imprint?

Sheila didn’t have any bumps to the back of her head which suggested she’d banged it...

Whatever, Jeremy definitely dragged her body down the carpet as her nightdress was bunched up at the back

Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: The phone call
« Reply #81 on: April 28, 2020, 11:39:10 AM »
It doesn't!  Both pathologists have SC sitting partially upright.  First respondent A/PS Woodcock found SC's head slightly raised against the bedside cabinet.  SC was interfered with after first respondents entered evidenced by soc images showing her head flat to the floor.  Forensic scientist Martyn Ismail gave evidence that following the second gsw SC's head would have fallen back against the bedside cabinet and he went to say she was pulled by her feet and her head fell flat to the floor.  It was the movement of her head that caused dislodged blood pooled in the back of her throat to trail from the sides of her mouth.  Gsw's cause bleeding internally and externally.


That’s not true at all.

When the first police officer went into the master bedroom he radioed over and said:

“One female. Early Sixties. Deceased”

He then walked over to where Sheila was and said:

“One female. Late 20s. Deceased”


All the family were dead, and had been for several hours, hence why Sheila’s left arm is mottled and blue and she was entering rigor mortis. In fact, by 3:30pm when Dr Vanezis examined her he noted she had “Extreme rigor mortis”


The police would NOT have even touched Sheila, let alone pull her body around. She was clearly dead!

Making claims that they did move her around, negates all your arguments because you’re showing that you make assumptions which are nonsense.

The only time the police touched Sheila’s body was when they moved the rifle off her lap so the photographer could take pictures of the bloodstain beneath her hand. They then placed the rifle back and tried to position her hand in the original position.

The only reason her arm was on her lap when found was that Jeremy staged it: had she really shot herself her whole body would have jerked and gone into spasm, the rifle would have fallen by her side, and her arm would have flopped out on the ground.
Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.

Offline Common sense

Re: The phone call
« Reply #82 on: April 28, 2020, 12:15:50 PM »
I suppose it's possible the vertical flows could have been made by her head being moved and the blood pool being disturbed later but that contradicts what Woodcock states about the blood trails from both sides of her mouth  does it not?

It seems to me that Woodcock's statement is inconsistent with itself.

The defence introducing evidence of her body being moved post mortem would be suicidal as it's obvious who was much more likely to have moved her than the police, probably because the rifle didn't sit right.

FWIW: I am of the opinion that the second shot was fired while she was lying toward her right side and the cabinet forced her head into that awkward position as she rolled flat. This means there is no way the gun would have ended up lying on her body.

I don't suppose there is a full copy of Mr Ismail's report anywhere?

Offline Caroline

Re: The phone call
« Reply #83 on: April 28, 2020, 12:31:18 PM »
I suppose it's possible the vertical flows could have been made by her head being moved and the blood pool being disturbed later but that contradicts what Woodcock states about the blood trails from both sides of her mouth  does it not?

It seems to me that Woodcock's statement is inconsistent with itself.

The defence introducing evidence of her body being moved post mortem would be suicidal as it's obvious who was much more likely to have moved her than the police, probably because the rifle didn't sit right.

FWIW: I am of the opinion that the second shot was fired while she was lying toward her right side and the cabinet forced her head into that awkward position as she rolled flat. This means there is no way the gun would have ended up lying on her body.

I don't suppose there is a full copy of Mr Ismail's report anywhere?

The fact that Woodcock saw the blood trails is proof thatch was moved prior to the raid team entering.

Ismail made no comment about Sheila being moved after discovery - I don't know why Holly keeps using him as support for her argument.


Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The phone call
« Reply #84 on: April 28, 2020, 12:31:31 PM »
PS Adams handwritten notes for the COLP investigation:



[attachment deleted by admin]
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: The phone call
« Reply #85 on: April 28, 2020, 12:44:08 PM »
PS Adams handwritten notes for the COLP investigation:

Yes, but he is saying something far different from Woodcock - he's saying that her head was 'too close' the cabinet not raised against it.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The phone call
« Reply #86 on: April 28, 2020, 12:47:53 PM »
Yes, but he is saying something far different from Woodcock - he's saying that her head was 'too close' the cabinet not raised against it.

He is also saying something about the angle of her head not right.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: The phone call
« Reply #87 on: April 28, 2020, 12:56:55 PM »
He is also saying something about the angle of her head not right.

Top of his list is 'too close to the bedside cabinet' - it simply means that. because. of the delay in producing the statements, recollection was more difficult. Looking at the CS photographs gives the impression of different angles. It's something that has been debated by members on the blue forum.

Offline Common sense

Re: The phone call
« Reply #88 on: April 28, 2020, 01:01:15 PM »
We all remember things differently, our minds are not video recorders that we can rewind.  Police hate having multiple witnesses to a crime because they can all say different and contradictory things and there is no reason to think multiple police officers are exempt from this.

The fact is, the evidence for police moving SC is weak to non existent while the evidence she was moved before the raid team entered is very much stronger as the 3 appeal court judges noted.

Another string to the prosecution's considerable bow.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The phone call
« Reply #89 on: April 28, 2020, 01:24:18 PM »
And from Prof MacDonell

[attachment deleted by admin]
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?