The phone call

[Holly Goodhead]

Holly, we have been through this - the blood on Sheila Caffell's face is proof that her head was flat to the floor. Blood has ran from the sides of her mouth, not down her chin and blood from her nose, has trailed to her eye. You theory is against the laws of gravity. Her head may (or may not) have been propped ups when shot, but if someone pulled her legs down, then the blood trails on her face show it was Bamber.

Caroline with respect why am I going to run with your theory when a forensic scientist with a degree in biochemistry whose first role was as a body fluid analyst contradicts it?

Martyn Ismail cv:

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/martyn-ismail-293b8518

The Coa:

518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet

[Holly Goodhead]

A. They were police officers - used to people lying.
B. They spent longer time with him, so more chance to observe him behaviour.

JB passed a lie detector test.  I don't put much weight on their reliability but I'm sure they're just as reliable as Bews gut feeling!

[Holly Goodhead]

How could he make that statement previous to the trial? He hadn't seen the crime scene!. The above statement doesn't indicate that officers moved anything but the blood on SC face prove her head was flat to the floor. You seem to ignore evidence when it doesn't suit.

What info did he have when he made that report on 12th Nov 86 that he didn't have pre JB charged?

He didn't visit soc when victims were in situ but he visited on 8th Aug and had access to soc images.

I'm not ignoring evidence at all; I've quoted the expert testimony from Martyn Ismail but you prefer your own theory.

[Holly Goodhead]

The bible was an exhibit at trail - an exhibit the defence chose not to use.

The Bible was referred to at trial when the prosecution went through exhibits with DC Hammersly but I don't think it was physically presented with jurors given an opportunity to inspect it.

According to Paul Terzeon (JB's trial solicitor) the defence asked about the open pages of the bible and it is obvious the defence did not have access to it.  I accept it was down to the defence to pursue but as you know my opinion is that JB's legal representation at trial and 2002 appeal was woeful to say the least.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1857

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859

[barrier]

Caroline with respect why am I going to run with your theory when a forensic scientist with a degree in biochemistry whose first role was as a body fluid analyst contradicts it?

Martyn Ismail cv:

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/martyn-ismail-293b8518

The Coa:

518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet

Pah,my daughter trumps him,she's a PHD doctor.You brought class into it,msc thats all he is.

[Holly Goodhead]

What you seem to be ignoring (although you say it the be all and end all in this case) is the EVIDENCE. Look at the CS picture of ASC and please explain HOW blood would trial in that manner if her head was propped up? This doesn't sit well with your theory so you're just ignoring it and repeating the same error.

I'm ignoring your unqualified opinion over the expert evidence:

518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet.

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

[barrier]

Yes but what all concerned seem oblivious to is that the most senior first respondent, A/PS Woodcock, noted in his wit stat that SC's head was raised against the bedside cabinet whereas in soc images it is flat to the floor meaning SC was moved at soc post first respondents entering and pre soc images taken.  Officers moved SC at soc and did not disclose this fact letting JB take the rap 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251

Always somebody else's fault.

[Holly Goodhead]

Pah,my daughter trumps him,she's a PHD doctor.You brought class into it,msc thats all he is.

Yes I think I recall you posting your daughter has a PhD and degree in Chemistry.  Maybe ask her opinion.  These things are often not as straightforward as they seem.  I understand what Caroline is saying but I think there's more to it.  I think I recall reading somewhere that he consulted with a pathologist prior to writing his report so it could be the leaked fluid is purge which I believe emits from orifices some time after death.

When I look at these cases I'm always loathed to deviate from expert opinion as the chances are if he/she is appropriately qualified it stands to reason they will know far more about the subject than those who haven't had to demonstrate their competence by way of passing an exam.

[Holly Goodhead]

Always somebody else's fault.

Not sure what you mean?

A/PS Woodcock just noted his visual perception of soc which aligns with the expert evidence from Martyn Ismail?

By all concerned I was referring to JB's defence assuming A/PS Woodcock's wit stat was made available or they sought it out.

[APRIL]

Yes but what all concerned seem oblivious to is that the most senior first respondent, A/PS Woodcock, noted in his wit stat that SC's head was raised against the bedside cabinet whereas in soc images it is flat to the floor meaning SC was moved at soc post first respondents entering and pre soc images taken.  Officers moved SC at soc and did not disclose this fact letting JB take the rap 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251

ALL of these statements bother me. We read exactly what is said and process it. Trouble is, I think we're all inclined to process it differently, leaving no margins. Woodstock noted "that SC's head was raised against the bedside cabinet". Was it at right-angles to her body with her head tilted? Was it somewhat flatter, meaning her head was only slightly raised from the floor? Was her body flat, or was it tilted and leaning to one side? All of which will have some bearing on the direction of blood flow.

I don't question any moving of the body. SO convinced were they that it was a case of murder/suicide they probably didn't think it would matter. It doesn't, however, mean that Jeremy is innocent, only that he was very convincing.

[Caroline]

Caroline with respect why am I going to run with your theory when a forensic scientist with a degree in biochemistry whose first role was as a body fluid analyst contradicts it?

Martyn Ismail cv:

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/martyn-ismail-293b8518

The Coa:

518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet

You have two eyes? You have seen that blood roll from her mouth horizontally? You can see that it has rolled back down her face from her nose and into her eye. Now please tell me how this can occur if her head is 'propped up'? Ismail is only talking about when she was shot and he states that someone moved her 'afterwards' - however, from the blood on her face, it could NOT have been the police. Your own sited evidence has tied you in knots and I think you realise that - Ismail made no indication that the police moved Sheila and what he said, isn't supporting your argument.

[Caroline]

Yes I think I recall you posting your daughter has a PhD and degree in Chemistry.  Maybe ask her opinion.  These things are often not as straightforward as they seem.  I understand what Caroline is saying but I think there's more to it.  I think I recall reading somewhere that he consulted with a pathologist prior to writing his report so it could be the leaked fluid is purge which I believe emits from orifices some time after death.

When I look at these cases I'm always loathed to deviate from expert opinion as the chances are if he/she is appropriately qualified it stands to reason they will know far more about the subject than those who haven't had to demonstrate their competence by way of passing an exam.

'Purge'? Are you SERIOUS? It does indeed emit from orifices after death, 3 - 5 days later! There is n o way that blood can defy gravity as you describe. Given that 'purge' is the result of purification, the idea that this happens a few hours after death is just silly. I thought you had studied this stuff? Blood is leaving from Sheila's mouth but swapping blood for surge still leaves you with the FACT that liquid cannot defy the laws of gravity and for her head to be propped up, it would have ran DOWN her face, not up.

[Caroline]

ALL of these statements bother me. We read exactly what is said and process it. Trouble is, I think we're all inclined to process it differently, leaving no margins. Woodstock noted "that SC's head was raised against the bedside cabinet". Was it at right-angles to her body with her head tilted? Was it somewhat flatter, meaning her head was only slightly raised from the floor? Was her body flat, or was it tilted and leaning to one side? All of which will have some bearing on the direction of blood flow.

I don't question any moving of the body. SO convinced were they that it was a case of murder/suicide they probably didn't think it would matter. It doesn't, however, mean that Jeremy is innocent, only that he was very convincing.

The evidence shows her head was flat - blood on Sheila's face prove it.

[APRIL]

'Purge'? Are you SERIOUS? It does indeed emit from orifices after death, 3 - 5 days later! There is n o way that blood can defy gravity as you describe. Given that 'purge' is the result of purification, the idea that this happens a few hours after death is just silly. I thought you had studied this stuff? Blood is leaving from Sheila's mouth but swapping blood for surge still leaves you with the FACT that liquid cannot defy the laws of gravity and for her head to be propped up, it would have ran DOWN her face, not up.

 "Putrefaction"?

[APRIL]

The evidence shows her head was flat - blood on Sheila's face prove it.

Unquestionably.