The phone call

[APRIL]

I didn't mention blackmail, you did. I don't know what went on between June and her daughter but I do know she made decisions for her. Sheila asked Colin to intervene with her parents to persuade them to change her medication so she was clearly unable to negotiate on her own behalf. I can imagine her fearing that she would end up in Bournemouth if that's what they wanted.

I understood that Sheila visited her own gp in London and requested that the dosage could be lowered. The gp then negotiated with her consultant and the dose was subsequently lowered. As an adult, Sheila's medication was nothing to do with her parents. Under the patient confidentiality rules, details of her illness shouldn't have been revealed. It's doubtful that even though they were told the nature of her illness, they were told what she was taking.

[G-Unit]

I understood that Sheila visited her own gp in London and requested that the dosage could be lowered. The gp then negotiated with her consultant and the dose was subsequently lowered. As an adult, Sheila's medication was nothing to do with her parents. Under the patient confidentiality rules, details of her illness shouldn't have been revealed. It's doubtful that even though they were told the nature of her illness, they were told what she was taking.

No point in her asking Colin to intervene with her parents then, if they were in the dark about her condition and treatment.

[APRIL]

No point in her asking Colin to intervene with her parents then, if they were in the dark about her condition and treatment.

From whom did you learn that she did?

[Caroline]

I have answered your points in bold. Your scenario is indeed ludicrous, but mine isn't imo.

So Nevll just watched her walk off, grab the gun and attach the magazine?

Why would Nevill call Jeremy to talk Sheila into doing anything? They weren't close!

[Caroline]

I didn't mention blackmail, you did. I don't know what went on between June and her daughter but I do know she made decisions for her. Sheila asked Colin to intervene with her parents to persuade them to change her medication so she was clearly unable to negotiate on her own behalf. I can imagine her fearing that she would end up in Bournemouth if that's what they wanted.

They didn't make decisions for her.

[Caroline]

From whom did you learn that she did?

Just wondering that myself.

[ISpyWithMyEye]

I have answered your points in bold. Your scenario is indeed ludicrous, but mine isn't imo.

You have avoided answering my questions because you can’t. All you’ve done is dreamt up a bizarre senseless scenario, none of which makes sense.

Furthermore, you’re making yourself look even more of a fool by suggesting that for some strange reason, Sheila woke up in the early hours, woke Nevill up without disturbing June who was a very light sleeper, then asked him to go downstairs “for a chat”.

You’re suggesting that the chat became heated — yet June remained in her bed just hearing this heated row going on — and Sheila then got hold of the gun and managed to make it into the bathroom without Nevill overpowering her?

Sheila wouldn’t even have had a chance to get hold of the gun with Nevill stood opposite her, but you’ll refuse to accept that because it blows your ridiculous implausible story into smithereens.

[G-Unit]

You have avoided answering my questions because you can’t. All you’ve done is dreamt up a bizarre senseless scenario, none of which makes sense.

Furthermore, you’re making yourself look even more of a fool by suggesting that for some strange reason, Sheila woke up in the early hours, woke Nevill up without disturbing June who was a very light sleeper, then asked him to go downstairs “for a chat”.

You’re suggesting that the chat became heated — yet June remained in her bed just hearing this heated row going on — and Sheila then got hold of the gun and managed to make it into the bathroom without Nevill overpowering her?

Sheila wouldn’t even have had a chance to get hold of the gun with Nevill stood opposite her, but you’ll refuse to accept that because it blows your ridiculous implausible story into smithereens.

My, you get quite agressive and insulting don't you? You need to understand that nothing you can say will affect how I think or what I post. You can say I 'look like a fool' but please don't assume I care what you think.

May I suggest you read what I say instead of inventing your own version?

I did not say that Sheila woke up and then woke Nevill up to go for a chat.

I think it's possible that Nevill never went to bed. Sheila was known to ring her father from London when she couldn't sleep and talk to him into the early hours [CAL book page 111]. It's not ludicrous to imagine that she heard him downstairs and came down to speak to him in the living room where he tended to sit at the end of the day.

If she left him sitting there and went 'to the toilet', for example she would have been able to go and get the gun without him even knowing she was doing it.

[Caroline]

My, you get quite agressive and insulting don't you? You need to understand that nothing you can say will affect how I think or what I post. You can say I 'look like a fool' but please don't assume I care what you think.

May I suggest you read what I say instead of inventing your own version?

I did not say that Sheila woke up and then woke Nevill up to go for a chat.

I think it's possible that Nevill never went to bed. Sheila was known to ring her father from London when she couldn't sleep and talk to him into the early hours [CAL book page 111]. It's not ludicrous to imagine that she heard him downstairs and came down to speak to him in the living room where he tended to sit at the end of the day.

If she left him sitting there and went 'to the toilet', for example she would have been able to go and get the gun without him even knowing she was doing it.

So why did she leave Nevill he was a sitting duck bust she left him sat there alive. Instead she went upstairs and shot the others, then took on Nevill? And yet if she had had a heated discussion with him, he be the one she actually argued with?

I agree that Nevill never went to bed. I think that Jeremy came back after his call to Julie on whatever pretext. Waited for Nevill to go to the shower? Locked Sheila in the bedroom, shot June and the twins and ambushed Nevill as he came upstairs. When Nevill was dead, he dealt with Sheila and staged the scene.

[steve_trousers]

I agree that Nevill never went to bed. I think that Jeremy came back after his call to Julie on whatever pretext. Waited for Nevill to go to the shower? Locked Sheila in the bedroom, shot June and the twins and ambushed Nevill as he came upstairs. When Nevill was dead, he dealt with Sheila and staged the scene.

How interesting. So you think Jeremy came back much earlier in the evening and not while they were all sleeping?

Could Sheila have been locked in her room from the outside then? I always thought twins first, Nevill hears something and is semi ready for Jeremy by the time he got across the landing. Then both parents were non fatally injured before Nevill stole past Jeremy in the act of reloading. Jeremy catches up with Nevill in the kitchen and despatches him before returning upstairs to find Sheila tending to June. The whole grisly enterprise is over and done with in less than 10 minutes.

[Caroline]

How interesting. So you think Jeremy came back much earlier in the evening and not while they were all sleeping?

Could Sheila have been locked in her room from the outside then? I always thought twins first, Nevill hears something and is semi ready for Jeremy by the time he got across the landing. Then both parents were non fatally injured before Nevill stole past Jeremy in the act of reloading. Jeremy catches up with Nevill in the kitchen and despatches him before returning upstairs to find Sheila tending to June. The whole grisly enterprise is over and done with in less than 10 minutes.

Yes, I think he came back after the call with Julie. For some reason he was timing the call - in her statement, Julie mentions that Bamber said that they had been on the call for 17 mins and seemed like he wanted to go. I think they were all long dead before 3am as he needed time to set the scene and return.

[Holly Goodhead]

So why did she leave Nevill he was a sitting duck bust she left him sat there alive. Instead she went upstairs and shot the others, then took on Nevill? And yet if she had had a heated discussion with him, he be the one she actually argued with?

I agree that Nevill never went to bed. I think that Jeremy came back after his call to Julie on whatever pretext. Waited for Nevill to go to the shower? Locked Sheila in the bedroom, shot June and the twins and ambushed Nevill as he came upstairs. When Nevill was dead, he dealt with Sheila and staged the scene.

An image of NB's pillow clearly shows an indentation typical of a head resting on it.  Jean Boutell, housekeeper, had been in that day so unlikely the pillows would not have been shaken.

June was clearly shot in bed and whilst getting out 5/6 gsw's but was then able to walk around the bed and back where she sustained 2 further shots so how does this fit with your scenario? 

The pathologist seemed to think the gsw's sustained by the twins were inflicted in quick succession and consecutively. 
A total of 8 gsw's plus those sustained by June is a lot of noise for JB to then lie in wait to ambush NB as he came up the stairs.

Did SC's room have a lock/key? 

[Holly Goodhead]

How interesting. So you think Jeremy came back much earlier in the evening and not while they were all sleeping?

Could Sheila have been locked in her room from the outside then? I always thought twins first, Nevill hears something and is semi ready for Jeremy by the time he got across the landing. Then both parents were non fatally injured before Nevill stole past Jeremy in the act of reloading. Jeremy catches up with Nevill in the kitchen and despatches him before returning upstairs to find Sheila tending to June. The whole grisly enterprise is over and done with in less than 10 minutes.

Why would JB spend 8 cartridges on the twins before even attempting to deal with his greatest adversary?

NB sustained two gsw's to his front and two to his rear upstairs.  At what point did NB turn and where was JB?

What was SC doing when June was clearly staggering around the bed from one side to the other and back again?  Why would SC tend to her mother, who by most accounts she wasn't fond of, before checking on the twins who according to you were already dead?

For a scenario to stand up to scrutiny it needs to match the physical evidence at soc by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.

[Holly Goodhead]

If Nevill was shot 4 times before making the phonecall how come he managed to do so without leaving a trace of his blood on the phone?

He wasn't shot before he made the call.

[Holly Goodhead]

I have never argued that Nevill wasn't shot in the bedroom. He obviously was because of the shell cases and it was obviously before the shots in the kitchen because they killed him. What I am suggesting is that he could have been in the kitchen using the phone before he was in the bedroom being shot. Can you prove that he wasn't?

At trial it was accepted June sustained a bruise only wound independent of other gsw's.  Meaning she sustained a total of 8.  6 shots were clearly fired whilst she was in bed and getting out of.  It is not clear to me the exact position she was in when she sustained the two gsw's to the head both of which immobilised her immediately together or independently.  Is it possible she was facing the perp as he/she stood in the doorway and she then fell into that awkward position by the door?

G-Unit you need to hone your spacial awareness and mental rotation skills!  As you can see from the casing layout diagram, one casing is located on the landing and another on the transition strip (bedroom/landing).  I have always thought these pertain to the gsw's NB sustained to his rear inflicted as he was on the main staircase facing the front door with the perp behind.  If you follow the wound tracks in the pathology report and Dr V's trial test you will see the gsw to NB's shoulder was fired from above meaning the perp must have higher than NB given he was taller than either of the perp.

With regard to the facial wounds I believe all the physical evidence supports the perp stood inside the bedroom with NB standing on the landing stairs.  If the barrel extended onto the landing with perp stood just inside the door the casings might well have fallen in the main bedroom as the right angle of the room will impede their flight path.  Again the tracks of the facial wounds were 10 to 20 degrees below the horizontal which would fit with NB stood on the landing stairs.

The casing ejection pattern of the rifle is forward to the right up to 4 feet. 

The following vid is an altogether different rifle/ammo and the ejection pattern is to the right (same as in this case) but backwards instead of forwards as in this case.  So you can get a feel for the spacial relationship between muzzle of barrel and the likely landing place of casings.

https://youtu.be/WdAI9j_lDbc

You also need to consider the layout of WHF and given the trajectories of NB's gsw's the stairs are key imo: the two landing stairs just prior to the entrance to the bedroom and then the main staircase.