SC's Manual Dexterity

[Holly Goodhead]

Prosecution witnesses claimed SC suffered poor coordination and as such she was unable to load the magazine and operate the rifle.  This formed part of the prosecution case at trial:

Sheila Caffell also had very poor co-ordination and would not have been capable of loading and operating the rifle

What evidence exists to support this?

[Holly Goodhead]

This thread has a narrow theme so please remain on topic.

Just a reminder that anything remotely personal about fellow posters who are members of this forum will be removed along with any quoted posts containing  anything personal.  It is posters' responsibility to ensure anything they upload to the forum does not contain anything personal either directly in their own posts or indirectly in quoted posts.

Thanks.

[Nicholas]

This thread has a narrow theme so please remain on topic.

Just a reminder that anything remotely personal about fellow posters who are members of this forum will be removed along with any quoted posts containing  anything personal.  It is posters' responsibility to ensure anything they upload to the forum does not contain anything personal either directly in their own posts or indirectly in quoted posts.

Thanks.

Did another thread need to be started Holly?

Isn’t this a bit like information pollution?

[John]

Prosecution witnesses claimed SC suffered poor coordination and as such she was unable to load the magazine and operate the rifle.  This formed part of the prosecution case at trial:

Sheila Caffell also had very poor co-ordination and would not have been capable of loading and operating the rifle

What evidence exists to support this?

In the book "Jeremy Bamber: Evil, Almost Beyond Belief", Scott Lomax refers to Ann Eaton's testimony at the trial in which she relates Sheila's poor hand-eye coordination. It was claimed that Sheila was incapable of putting beans on toast or pouring a cup of tea. Sheila's medication apparently affected her ability to carry out tasks.


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=H8U7AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT98&lpg=PT98&dq=sheila+caffell+poor+hand+coordination&source=bl&ots=E-TFWK68mR&sig=ACfU3U2QzEXUshNdkKlXNeAjpNiwwgI36Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjv4sjznuroAhWFTRUIHXosAkYQ6AEwEnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=sheila%20caffell%20poor%20hand%20coordination&f=false

[John]

And Colin Caffell being interviewed recently...

"When it first happened, I didn't want anything to disturb my original memories of the children," he explained. "I didn't want to see the bodies, I didn't want to identify them. So I didn't let anybody tell me anything, so I kind of accepted the story. So I was completely seduced by Jeremy [and I was] in terrible shock.

"Then when somebody explained that it was a rifle, I thought, Sheila could never have used a rifle, she would have no idea. She didn't know one end from another and with her medication, she wouldn't have had any hand to eye co-ordination. And this was a marksman skill.

"So for me, I started writing the book to make sense of it, to clear her name."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/sheila-caffells-ex-husband-seduced-21237512

[Nicholas]

These people would have known her better than the ‘obsessive Bamberettes’, as Aunt Agatha referred to his supporters yesterday

[G-Unit]

Ann Eaton hadn't seen Sheila Caffell since Christmas 1984, except for a brief meeting at Osea.

[Caroline]

Prosecution witnesses claimed SC suffered poor coordination and as such she was unable to load the magazine and operate the rifle.  This formed part of the prosecution case at trial:

Sheila Caffell also had very poor co-ordination and would not have been capable of loading and operating the rifle

What evidence exists to support this?

Statements from various people who encountered her shortly before the murders.

[Holly Goodhead]

Statements from various people who encountered her shortly before the murders.

John has provided cites for AE and CC do you have any others?

[Caroline]

John has provided cites for AE and CC do you have any others?

Michael Horsnell, Colin's girlfriend Heather, Sheila's friend Tora - they all talk about how ridgid so was and Tora comment how she was not even being able to get up from a sitting position.

I can understand you not wanting to take AE's word but you have no reason to dismiss Colin. I am sure you and G will look for excuses in my examples but to keep dismissing evidence doesn't do your argument any good.

[mrswah]

Michael Horsnell, Colin's girlfriend Heather, Sheila's friend Tora - they all talk about how ridgid so was and Tora comment how she was not even being able to get up from a sitting position.

I can understand you not wanting to take AE's word but you have no reason to dismiss Colin. I am sure you and G will look for excuses in my examples but to keep dismissing evidence doesn't do your argument any good.

I wont dismiss Colin, as he had seen quite a lot of Sheila in her final week (the party, and he had taken her to WHF). I believe he knew her as well as anyone, if not better.  He would have kept an eye on her, as she had partial custody of the twins.

However, I'd like to know whether Sheila's condition varied from day to day. Somebody mentioned that she could hardly walk, but , IMO, that is not borne out by what CAL says. Various people who saw her had different opinions on this. Were there any other factors that influenced Sheila's co ordination------drugs or alcohol, for example? Does anyone know?

[Caroline]

I wont dismiss Colin, as he had seen quite a lot of Sheila in her final week (the party, and he had taken her to WHF). I believe he knew her as well as anyone, if not better.  He would have kept an eye on her, as she had partial custody of the twins.

However, I'd like to know whether Sheila's condition varied from day to day. Somebody mentioned that she could hardly walk, but , IMO, that is not borne out by what CAL says. Various people who saw her had different opinions on this. Were there any other factors that influenced Sheila's co ordination------drugs or alcohol, for example? Does anyone know?

Lets be clear that CAL isn't saying anything (I don't think she would appreciate the inference), she has just reported what others have said so who do you have in mind when you mention 'different opinions'?

[mrswah]

Lets be clear that CAL isn't saying anything (I don't think she would appreciate the inference), she has just reported what others have said so who do you have in mind when you mention 'different opinions'?

Ok, different people's comments about Sheila on the Monday and Tuesday before the murders (CAL's book, pp587-632)

Monday :  Douglas Pike called to collect a faulty telephone. Was greeted by Sheila. Also saw the twins, and thought "what a happy family they seemed".

Jean Bouttell, the housekeeper thought Sheila "seemed her normal self, if a little quiet"

Stuart Sinclair thought "nothing amiss"

Philip Wilson thought Sheila "appeared quite happy"

Sheila's cousin, Yvonne, thought the same, when Sheila telephoned her for a chat.

Tuesday:

Len Foakes thought Sheila seemed "very happy"

Michael Horsnell, decorator, thought Sheila was "like a zombie", and that she walked very rigidly.

Barbara Wilson thought it unusual to see Sheila and Jeremy together, but didn't say there was anything out of the ordinary about Sheila's demeanour or behaviour.

Barry Parker, shop owner, described Sheila as "vague and distant" and thought she was strange, when she visited his shop with June and the twins. He commented about her lipstick being all over her teeth.

Elizabeth Smith, a friend of June's, who knew Sheila, did not comment on anything being unusual when June and Sheila visited her.

[Caroline]

Ok, different people's comments about Sheila on the Monday and Tuesday before the murders (CAL's book, pp587-632)

Monday :  Douglas Pike called to collect a faulty telephone. Was greeted by Sheila. Also saw the twins, and thought "what a happy family they seemed".

Jean Bouttell, the housekeeper thought Sheila "seemed her normal self, if a little quiet"

Stuart Sinclair thought "nothing amiss"

Philip Wilson thought Sheila "appeared quite happy"

Sheila's cousin, Yvonne, thought the same, when Sheila telephoned her for a chat.

Tuesday:

Len Foakes thought Sheila seemed "very happy"

Michael Horsnell, decorator, thought Sheila was "like a zombie", and that she walked very rigidly.

Barbara Wilson thought it unusual to see Sheila and Jeremy together, but didn't say there was anything out of the ordinary about Sheila's demeanour or behaviour.

Barry Parker, shop owner, described Sheila as "vague and distant" and thought she was strange, when she visited his shop with June and the twins. He commented about her lipstick being all over her teeth.

Elizabeth Smith, a friend of June's, who knew Sheila, did not comment on anything being unusual when June and Sheila visited her.

It depends on how long and in what circumstances they saw Sheila together with their past experiences of her (as measurement). Also, he fact that she seemed happy, (although not walking normally - which suggests lack of coordination), kind of files in the face of a depressed psychotic about to blow the family away.

[mrswah]

It depends on how long and in what circumstances they saw Sheila together with their past experiences of her (as measurement). Also, he fact that she seemed happy, (although not walking normally - which suggests lack of coordination), kind of files in the face of a depressed psychotic about to blow the family away.

Only one of the witnesses mentions her not walking normally.

Of course, all these people were (presumably) interviewed by CAL? If so, it was years after the event, and I wonder how accurate their memories were. I also wonder how often they saw Sheila, and how well they knew her.