Why was the window open ?

[John]

she also added...

The witness remembers that upon entering the bedroom at the time of the disappearance, she saw that the bed that the two babies were sleeping (reparou que a cama que os dois bebes encontravam-se a dormir) and she saw that the bedclothes of the bed near the window were rumpled as if someone had been sitting there, that the bedclothes of Madeleine's bed had been pushed back and that on top of the bed was a small child's blanket and a cuddly toy.

She states that the distance between the apartment and the restaurant where Madeleine's parents were was 30 seconds by foot away but that there was no visual contact with the back window of the bedroom where Madeleine was. From the restaurant just the front window of the apartment could be seen.

[DCI]

Just because no forensic evidence was found does not mean no forensic evidence was left.  It could have been overlooked or obscured or lost.  Evidence gathering from the apartment appeared to be quite slipshod, I believe at least one UK expert said it was the worst preserved crime-scene he'd ever seen or words to that effect.

Exactly, Martha.

How could decent evidence be gathered, when the incompetent forensic woman leaves case , open unattended on a wall, open to all kinds of contamination. She didn't wear protective clothing, and she has no glove on the hand she is using for brushing.

[DCI]

More on the size of those windows.


Step one ... Rebelo pushes window, watched by cop



Step two ... net curtains rustle in breeze as the window
swings open



Step three ... detective leans in as colleagues look on



Step four ... team confer about possible escape route

[faithlilly]

@ debunker

I've never heard anyone claim that. What posters do say is that it would be almost impossible for an adult male carrying a child to fit through that window without leaving any forensic traces and I believe an expert in a Channel 4 documentary said the same.

Of course a child could be passed through without leaving any indicative forensic traces- wrapped in a blanket from the room, window carefully opened with gloves or an implement.

But that would mean to abductors, a theory you have distanced yourself from.

[debunker]

@ debunker

I've never heard anyone claim that. What posters do say is that it would be almost impossible for an adult male carrying a child to fit through that window without leaving any forensic traces and I believe an expert in a Channel 4 documentary said the same.

Of course a child could be passed through without leaving any indicative forensic traces- wrapped in a blanket from the room, window carefully opened with gloves or an implement.

But that would mean to abductors, a theory you have distanced yourself from.

You just don't get it, do you. My position is "We have too little information to decide what happened". I am supporting that point of view by insisting that nothing is ruled in and nothing is ruled out.

[gavdalf]

Agreed, and even though we can form opinions based on probability, even if that 1in100 its still a possibility.

Was it not mentioned that it was thought entry was achieved through the door?

[sadie]

Almost certainly entry was thru the front door gavdalf.  Deeply recessed, totally hidden from view, not overlooked from  any direction, in almost complete darkness ... and keys available as illustrated by recent burglaries in the block via front doors.

Entry and exit thru the FRONT Door, in my cosidered opinion having been there and critically looked.   And supported by the PJ and Amarsl, cos no fibres and no marks on sill. 

Only Kates finger prints <<<< What rot!  Every friend, upon seeing that window open, would immedately have gone across to it and grasping the frame have leaned right out looking left, right and down. 

Sounds suspiciously like a stitch up to me.  but then the PJ never stitch people up, do they?  So I cant be right, can I?

THE FRONT DOOR was the way in and out, almost without doubt

[C.Edwards]

Almost certainly entry was thru the front door gavdalf.  Deeply recessed, totally hidden from view, not overlooked from  any direction, in almost complete darkness ... and keys available as illustrated by recent burglaries in the block via front doors.

Entry and exit thru the FRONT Door, in my cosidered opinion having been there and critically looked.   And supported by the PJ and Amarsl, cos no fibres and no marks on sill. 

Only Kates finger prints <<<< What rot!  Every friend, upon seeing that window open, would immedately have gone across to it and grasping the frame have leaned right out looking left, right and down. 

Sounds suspiciously like a stitch up to me.  but then the PJ never stitch people up, do they?  So I cant be right, can I?

THE FRONT DOOR was the way in and out, almost without doubt

There is no evidence to suggest that this was the case.  You have an opinion that this was how the abductor (should said abductor actually exist) would have gained entry and exit but it's no more than an opinion and is no more valid than my opinion that there was no abductor.

As I said before, if it's so obvious, then why is the whole "spare key" myth not a major point early on in the investigation?  It only gains eminence on the internet (use googles time-based searching function) in early 2009.  Don't you think the police may have looked into this in some detail?  I'd be highly surprised if they hadn't.

[debunker]

I have worked and lived in institutional accommodation for considerable periods- hospitals and universities. Rogue keys were always available.

[C.Edwards]

I have worked and lived in institutional accommodation for considerable periods- hospitals and universities. Rogue keys were always available.

tsk, debunker, why would your experiences in an institution (that explains a lot, rofl) have any bearing on a holiday resort in Portugal?  You cannot make the logical leap that because "rogue" (spare?) keys have been available to you elsewhere, they would have been in this case. That's lazy, particularly from you.

[debunker]

I have worked and lived in institutional accommodation for considerable periods- hospitals and universities. Rogue keys were always available.

tsk, debunker, why would your experiences in an institution (that explains a lot, rofl) have any bearing on a holiday resort in Portugal?  You cannot make the logical leap that because "rogue" (spare?) keys have been available to you elsewhere, they would have been in this case. That's lazy, particularly from you.

IGnoring gour stupid insults.

ANything that is not impossible is possible.

DUplicate or master keys might have been available.

[C.Edwards]

Pull the other one. You got caught out presenting a personal opinion as a fact. Have the grace to admit your errors from time to time and you'll get a lot more credibility.

[debunker]

Pull the other one. You got caught out presenting a personal opinion as a fact. Have the grace to admit your errors from time to time and you'll get a lot more credibility.

YOU LIE

I said (very carefully):

"I have worked and lived in institutional accommodation for considerable periods- hospitals and universities. Rogue keys were always available."

That does not say anything about the apartments, merely shows a possibility that should be considered.

[DCI]

I have worked and lived in institutional accommodation for considerable periods- hospitals and universities. Rogue keys were always available.

Schools too, debunker.

All holiday parks have spare keys, be it for caravans, chalets and private lets. Makes sense when you think about it, in case of break ins, fires, etc.

[Carana]

I have worked and lived in institutional accommodation for considerable periods- hospitals and universities. Rogue keys were always available.

Schools too, debunker.

All holiday parks have spare keys, be it for caravans, chalets and private lets. Makes sense when you think about it, in case of break ins, fires, etc.

People losing keys on the beach, leaving keys under mats for other occupants with different activities...

My issue is whether or not it has been excluded that a spare (borrowed/stolen and duplicated) key could have been used.

And, whether the demonstration with the credit card in Amaral's documentary involved simply a closed door or a deadlocked one and what the difference would be in terms of a simple break-in. That's not clear to me at the moment.