Dog alerts indicating Cadaver Odor

[AnneGuedes]

This strange and imo implausible scenario might have originated from those frozen new-born (quite a few) coupled with the idea a body must have a sepulchre.

What are you referring to, Anne?

Carana, there have been, in France, for about 10 years, quite a few cases of mothers freezing their new born. The most "famous" is Veronique Courjault, she did it twice and confessed that, before, she had burnt a new born. Middle class, cultured lady, with a loving husband (engineer), two sons, many friends... Her sickness is difficult to understand. Loving being pregnant but fearing having to take care of another child ?
Those frozen babies were found by her husband in Saigon as she had gone back to France for the kids' holidays. He called the police. They did some tests and said those were his babies. He and everybody in France thought the Koreans were mad...

Did you mean Seoul, as opposed to Saigon?. Yes, I'm aware of the case. Very sad.

I'm not sure of the relevance to a family taking their children on holiday though.

Seoul of course, yes, sorry !
Freezing is just a way to get transitorily rid of a problem.

[icabodcrane]

It's interesting to make a comparison of how much time was spent in all the other apartments and how much time was spent in the places Madeleine was known to have been -- as well as those places Madeleine was known not to have been but the McCanns were known to have been (if you follow the distinction) ...

It's not as simple as that. If the dog showed interest and his behaviour changed,more time would be spent to find the source of the interest. This did not happen in the other apartments, nor the Mccanns villa for that matter. Mr Grime's video commentary says where there was interest and where there wasn't.

You are assuming that with no proof.

You obviously have not watched the whole dog video then, I assume nothing.

You are assuming plenty. I am assuming nothing.

In that case,  you will agree that there is a possibility that the cadavor dog was alerting to the scent of the missing child's dead body

[debunker]

It's interesting to make a comparison of how much time was spent in all the other apartments and how much time was spent in the places Madeleine was known to have been -- as well as those places Madeleine was known not to have been but the McCanns were known to have been (if you follow the distinction) ...

It's not as simple as that. If the dog showed interest and his behaviour changed,more time would be spent to find the source of the interest. This did not happen in the other apartments, nor the Mccanns villa for that matter. Mr Grime's video commentary says where there was interest and where there wasn't.

You are assuming that with no proof.

You obviously have not watched the whole dog video then, I assume nothing.

You are assuming plenty. I am assuming nothing.

In that case,  you will agree that there is a possibility that the cadavor dog was alerting to the scent of the missing child's dead body

As long as you agree that equally he could be alerting to a non-cadaver source scent, or blood, or simply making an error. There is no evidence to decide between all those possibilities.

[AnneGuedes]

Also, I think Grime lied outright about Eddie's alleged training in America.

Do you agree with this, Debunker ?

[icabodcrane]

It's interesting to make a comparison of how much time was spent in all the other apartments and how much time was spent in the places Madeleine was known to have been -- as well as those places Madeleine was known not to have been but the McCanns were known to have been (if you follow the distinction) ...

It's not as simple as that. If the dog showed interest and his behaviour changed,more time would be spent to find the source of the interest. This did not happen in the other apartments, nor the Mccanns villa for that matter. Mr Grime's video commentary says where there was interest and where there wasn't.

You are assuming that with no proof.

You obviously have not watched the whole dog video then, I assume nothing.

You are assuming plenty. I am assuming nothing.

In that case,  you will agree that there is a possibility that the cadavor dog was alerting to the scent of the missing child's dead body

As long as you agree that equally he could be alerting to a non-cadaver source scent, or blood, or simply making an error. There is no evidence to decide between all those possibilities.

Without qualifying your answer, you accept that there is a possibility that the cadaver dog was alerting to the scent of Madeleine McCann's dead body

It is a possibility, is it not ?

[AnneGuedes]

Mr Grime does NOT say that Eddie had never made a false positive.

If you assert that, please provide a cite.

This belief is an unsupported myth.

Over to you.....

Think a bit.
How can MG affirm that Eddie never made a false positive ? Obviously only in the cases where forensic material was found at the alert point.
How can he affirm that it had happened Eddie giving a false negative ? Obviously only in the cases where forensic material was found at the non alert point.
In the case of an alert without forensic material, obviously it's impossible to affirm whether Eddie was right or false. That's what MG kept saying.

Exactly. Where no supporting evidence is found it is either a false alert or an alert without physical trace- all we can say is that no supporting evidence is produced by the alert because it could be a simple error on the part of the dog and handler.

In the case of a dog who never made a false positive in the conditions mentioned above, one at least should certainly wonder when he alerts and nothing is found, considering moreover that post-mortem molecules are extremely volatile.

[debunker]

Also, I think Grime l... outright about Eddie's alleged training in America.

Do you agree with this, Debunker ?

I don't know.

What did he say? When? In what context?

[debunker]

Without qualifying your answer, you accept that there is a possibility that the cadaver dog was alerting to the scent of Madeleine McCann's dead body

It is a possibility, is it not ?

IT is a possibility among many possibilities. It has no truth value.

[debunker]

Mr Grime does NOT say that Eddie had never made a false positive.

If you assert that, please provide a cite.

This belief is an unsupported myth.

Over to you.....

Think a bit.
How can MG affirm that Eddie never made a false positive ? Obviously only in the cases where forensic material was found at the alert point.
How can he affirm that it had happened Eddie giving a false negative ? Obviously only in the cases where forensic material was found at the non alert point.
In the case of an alert without forensic material, obviously it's impossible to affirm whether Eddie was right or false. That's what MG kept saying.

Exactly. Where no supporting evidence is found it is either a false alert or an alert without physical trace- all we can say is that no supporting evidence is produced by the alert because it could be a simple error on the part of the dog and handler.

In the case of a dog who never made a false positive in the conditions mentioned above, one at least should certainly wonder when he alerts and nothing is found, considering moreover that post-mortem molecules are extremely volatile.

What do you mean?

[Redblossom]

Ah, yes.

The definitive proof (in that report somewhere) that Eddie alerted to a coconut shell ...

How does a test in an Oxford lab on the find revealing the presence of collagen make it definitely a coconut? Collagen is only found in mammals.

[AnneGuedes]

I noticed a difference in time spent on the other apartments too.

In 5a Eddie was made to smell almost every inch of the floor by the wardrobe, called back to smell the furniture etc.

In the other apartments it seemed to me as if it was a quick search.   

Eddie was very interested in smelling behind I believe a cupboard in one of the other apartments?   Although the furniture was pulled out I didn't see Mr. Grime spending the length of time going over the floor as he had in 5a.

The same in the bedroom of the other apartments.   Eddie was smelling something under the bed in one of them and Mr. Grime calls him away actually telling him 'no'.   Mr. Grime didn't pull the bed out and have Eddie smell all over the floor of the bedroom.

We must remember too that 5a had been rented out to I think three other families, before Eddie and Keela were called in.

This is true, and better said than I could.  Mr. Grime did most definitely spend much more time with the dogs on all things McCann.

This is true, but why ? Because he knew about a subliminal doubt concerning the McCanns and had been asked to be very careful and leave no room to chance ? Or because he knew his dog had found something or nothing minutes after the door was open ?

[Redblossom]

Some excellent points there Icabodcrane.

@Carana, do you have a link to Martin Grime's Jersey report? TIA

http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html

Would you  like a link to the independent inquiry as well?

Why, is that site not independent? Yes please.

Even if true, it doesn't really change much does it? Either the Mccanns were extremely unlucky and the dog alerted to all sorts of innocent materials only in and outside their flat from where Madeleine disappeared, and nowhere else, what are the odds of that? or there is more to it.

The ods are quite high that such errors would occur.

Really? The odds are that in a search of 17 places, the dogs would make errors in the one place from where a child went missing but not in the other 16?

[Redblossom]

I noticed a difference in time spent on the other apartments too.

In 5a Eddie was made to smell almost every inch of the floor by the wardrobe, called back to smell the furniture etc.

In the other apartments it seemed to me as if it was a quick search.   

Eddie was very interested in smelling behind I believe a cupboard in one of the other apartments?   Although the furniture was pulled out I didn't see Mr. Grime spending the length of time going over the floor as he had in 5a.

The same in the bedroom of the other apartments.   Eddie was smelling something under the bed in one of them and Mr. Grime calls him away actually telling him 'no'.   Mr. Grime didn't pull the bed out and have Eddie smell all over the floor of the bedroom.

We must remember too that 5a had been rented out to I think three other families, before Eddie and Keela were called in.

So were the other apartments

[Redblossom]

Eddie alerts to dried blood ( whether from a living or dead person) AND/OR cadaver odor. Source: Mr Grime in the PJ files.

So you are saying that the sand containing the scent of a hundred year old cadaver was found by Eddie because he was sniffing blood?
 >@@(*&)

NO

Dogs make simple errors at least 1 alert in 10.

Ok, so you are asking me to believe that Mr Grime hid a bottle of corpse contaminated sand in the rocks on the beach while he kept his dog in its cage a far distance away and when the dog found that scent after travesing a wide area of that beach it could have been an error? That he alerted to the cadaver scent hidden there? I thinkyou are pushing it, don't you?
 

[AnneGuedes]

Mr Grime does NOT say that Eddie had never made a false positive.

If you assert that, please provide a cite.

This belief is an unsupported myth.

Over to you.....

Think a bit.
How can MG affirm that Eddie never made a false positive ? Obviously only in the cases where forensic material was found at the alert point.
How can he affirm that it had happened Eddie giving a false negative ? Obviously only in the cases where forensic material was found at the non alert point.
In the case of an alert without forensic material, obviously it's impossible to affirm whether Eddie was right or false. That's what MG kept saying.

Exactly. Where no supporting evidence is found it is either a false alert or an alert without physical trace- all we can say is that no supporting evidence is produced by the alert because it could be a simple error on the part of the dog and handler.

In the case of a dog who never made a false positive in the conditions mentioned above, one at least should certainly wonder when he alerts and nothing is found, considering moreover that post-mortem molecules are extremely volatile.

What do you mean?

You wouldn't ask if you had smelt those molecules.