Author Topic: Another view of dog evidence  (Read 54213 times)

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Offline John

Re: Another view of dog evidence
« Reply #75 on: April 10, 2013, 02:57:49 PM »
Didn't Eddie indicate the presence of cadaverine  or blood in a cupboard in the bedroom.  What was that all about?   8-)(--)

Had somebody kept a sanitary towel there?
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: Another view of dog evidence
« Reply #76 on: April 10, 2013, 03:00:10 PM »
Excuse me Mr. Administrators and Moderators,

but how the F. is it not important that 2 of the most prestigious BRITISH CSI, blood and cadaver dogs findings pointed to the existence of cadaver odour and blood in places where no one but little Madeleine could have been the victim?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The  handler, Mr. Grimes was very clear - they (doggies) signaled. The fact that we need material evidence to the Court Trial is entirely another question.

There was no f. death in that apartment since it was built until the Mccs rented it;
As far as we know, no corpse whore Ms Healys pants;
I don't think a corpse either whore the little red t-shirt;
etc, etc,..


Are we all crazy or are you trying to make us?

Fact is Luz, cadaverine is found in substances other than those which originated from corpses.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: Another view of dog evidence
« Reply #77 on: April 10, 2013, 03:01:27 PM »
Excuse me Mr. Administrators and Moderators,

but how the F. is it not important that 2 of the most prestigious BRITISH CSI, blood and cadaver dogs findings pointed to the existence of cadaver odour and blood in places where no one but little Madeleine could have been the victim?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The  handler, Mr. Grimes was very clear - they (doggies) signaled. The fact that we need material evidence to the Court Trial is entirely another question.

There was no f. death in that apartment since it was built until the Mccs rented it;
As far as we know, no corpse whore Ms Healys pants;
I don't think a corpse either wore the little red t-shirt;
etc, etc,..


Are we all crazy or are you trying to make us?

Fact is Luz, cadaverine is found in substances other than those which originated from corpses.  With the best will in the world the expertise of the 'doggies' is not an exact science.

I guarantee somebody is going to be rather embarrassed when Madeleine shows up alive and well and it wont be the doggies.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 03:03:35 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Luz

Re: Another view of dog evidence
« Reply #78 on: April 10, 2013, 03:04:47 PM »
As I said, poor Uk prisioners on the account of the doggies.

debunker

  • Guest
Re: Another view of dog evidence
« Reply #79 on: April 10, 2013, 03:09:17 PM »
As I said, poor Uk prisioners on the account of the doggies.

Why "poor UK prisoners"?

Offline Carana

Re: Another view of dog evidence
« Reply #80 on: April 10, 2013, 03:20:13 PM »
Excuse me Mr. Administrators and Moderators,

but how the F. is it not important that 2 of the most prestigious BRITISH CSI, blood and cadaver dogs findings pointed to the existence of cadaver odour and blood in places where no one but little Madeleine could have been the victim?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The  handler, Mr. Grimes was very clear - they (doggies) signaled. The fact that we need material evidence to the Court Trial is entirely another question.

There was no f. death in that apartment since it was built until the Mccs rented it;
As far as we know, no corpse whore Ms Healys pants;
I don't think a corpse either whore the little red t-shirt;
etc, etc,..


Are we all crazy or are you trying to make us?

You seem to assume that a reaction from Eddie necessarily meant that there was / had been a cadaver present. It could be, but may not be.

So many people were in that apartment (it was a holiday rental apartment after all).

It was also occupied by 4 sets of people on vacation AFTER the disappearance and BEFORE the UK dogs.

 

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Another view of dog evidence
« Reply #81 on: April 10, 2013, 03:22:23 PM »

Fact is Luz, cadaverine is found in substances other than those which originated from corpses.  With the best will in the world the expertise of the 'doggies' is not an exact science.

This is true, though quantity has an obvious effect on smell. But the problem is that cadaverine is far to be the only substance forming cadaver scent, a scent that besides changes with the passing of time !
Why do you think they grow cadavers in farms ?
There are very interesting and technical studies about the components of cadaver scent, a bit tough to read.. Actually scientists are trying to built a device that would copy dog's nose, avoiding any possible human interference.

Offline Carana

Re: Another view of dog evidence
« Reply #82 on: April 10, 2013, 03:46:10 PM »

Fact is Luz, cadaverine is found in substances other than those which originated from corpses.  With the best will in the world the expertise of the 'doggies' is not an exact science.

This is true, though quantity has an obvious effect on smell. But the problem is that cadaverine is far to be the only substance forming cadaver scent, a scent that besides changes with the passing of time !
Why do you think they grow cadavers in farms ?
There are very interesting and technical studies about the components of cadaver scent, a bit tough to read.. Actually scientists are trying to built a device that would copy dog's nose, avoiding any possible human interference.

From what I've read, dogs are really useful as an asset. However, their reactions are only indicative in the absence of anything substantial.

The science still doesn't seem to be exact. It would have been less so in 2007.

Offline Luz

Re: Another view of dog evidence
« Reply #83 on: April 10, 2013, 03:46:59 PM »
Ok Mr. John, yours seems to be a more down to earth description of what could have declenched the cadaver dog's signaling.

Now we can bury the myth of the 6 cadavers  examined by Ms. Healy, in what concerns her pants, and instead we consider that she disposed of her hygenic napkins in the living room behind the sofa, in her bedroom closet and in her car,...
not very hygenic that Ms Healy  >@@(*&)

I'm sorry but I believe more in the dogs that on those explanations.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 03:53:34 PM by Luz »

Offline Admin

Re: Another view of dog evidence
« Reply #84 on: April 10, 2013, 03:50:15 PM »
Ok Mr. John, yours seems to be a more down to earth description of what could have declenched the cadaver dog's signaling.

Now we can bury the myth of the 6 cadavers  examined by Ms. Healy, in what concerns her pants, and instead we consider that she disposed of her hygenic napkins in the living room behind the sofa, in her bedroom closet and in her car,...
not very hygenic that Ms Healy  >@@(*&)

 @)(++(*   8@??)(  now now

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Another view of dog evidence
« Reply #85 on: April 10, 2013, 04:03:41 PM »
"Reaction" to clothing can be dismissed.

Eddie had an opportunity to alert to anything that might have been within his scent-range during the inspection at the villa. 

The only, ostensible, alert at the villa was to the stuffed toy, where Eddie could, apparently, find no trace of a scent all the time he was able to play with the toy, pick it up, toss it in the air and all the rest.

Only after the toy was hidden in a cupboard could Eddie, apparently, detect a "scent".

Whether that was an error of omission (failing to react when he should have) or commission, reacting when he shouldn't have, we can only guess.

And in the gym, clothing Eddie (according to Joao Carlos) might have alerted to or might not was re-tested.

For any dog attending a crime scene to pick stuff up in its mouth is appalling bad practice.

In the meantime, here are the words of the one PJ officer really to understand the dogs, PJ Inspector Dias:

This summarized description raises a question that we would like to see answered: could the dog be 'marking' not the odours emanated from a cadaver, directly or indirectly (by contagious), but from blood in putrefaction'

These dogs are means for obtaining proof but they cannot be used as proof. They must be taken as instruments. Any vestige, even invisible to the eye, recovered with the use of these dogs, has to be subjected to forensic exam on a credited laboratory.

It is the same Martin Grime that, at pages 2271, refers on his report: 'Although it cannot constitute proof admissible to court, it can help on the recovery of intelligence for the investigation of serious crimes'.

In this case the dogs signalled several places. The technicians of the Scientific Police Laboratory recovered those vestiges ' vestiges that that on it's majority were not visible to the eye ' and sent them to the laboratories for the necessary forensic exams, in order to recover and identify the DNA profiles, that might be extracted from them.

From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.

If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'

On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'

Apart from all that was said about the dogs, we must also take into attention the results of the forensic analysis that was performed by the experts on the Scientific Police Laboratory on the day immediately after the facts, and already mentioned where no vestige of blood was found.


Offline Luz

Re: Another view of dog evidence
« Reply #86 on: April 10, 2013, 04:14:55 PM »
Let's hope the doggies are wrong!
I wish very deeply that child was found alive, but I'm afraid that will never happen.

Let's try to do her justice and find out what has happened to her.












Edited because I can't comment )
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 04:26:31 PM by Luz »

debunker

  • Guest
Re: Another view of dog evidence
« Reply #87 on: April 10, 2013, 04:17:56 PM »
I wish very deeply that child was found alive, but I'm afraid that will never happen.

Let's try to do her justice and find out what has happened to her.

In a case like this the parents are primary suspects and these have never been thoroughly investigated. Why would we excuse them from that necessary and close investigation?! What makes them special?

Every case I've read about missing children, had the parents completely checked.

You may not believe the dogs, but they gave signs that incriminate the parents, so why wouldn't they allow to be checked?

What irritates me the most is that these people have, from the start, behaved as nobody else. They assumed they could control everything, they  despised the authorities, they used them, they went on to a free ride as celebrities - using and abusing the press that they now accuse - and never ever moved a finger to try to get to any place where their daughter reportedly could possibly be.

From the very beginning they established a Fund that they have been using to enhance their life style - remember that when they went to this fatidic vacation, Mr. McCann discussed pennies over services in a low rated facility, but when he first returned to Lisbon he went to the most expensive hotel in town. Ms. Healy had to keep her GP job to make the ends meet, but she was able to leave it after Maddie disapeared.
[a lot more could be said]

Well, it sounds cruel, but they have been doing very well after their daughter's disappearance.

This makes me suspect that they don't have the slightest desire to have the truth come out.

You have no evidence how much if at all they have benefited.

Your own justice system has decided that there is no case to answer.

Offline Carana

Re: Another view of dog evidence
« Reply #88 on: April 10, 2013, 04:49:05 PM »
Let's hope the doggies are wrong!
I wish very deeply that child was found alive, but I'm afraid that will never happen.

Let's try to do her justice and find out what has happened to her.




Edited because I can't comment )


The doggies could be right, but they can't say what they were reacting to. Forensics couldn't determine anything conclusive either.


So far, there is nothing to prove that she is dead, let alone who was responsible. Therefore, as I'm sure you can appreciate, there is a possibility that she could still be alive.

If that little girl were your child, niece, neighbour's child, would you seriously - in the absence of proof to the contrary - deny her that right to be considered missing but potentially alive?

Offline Luz

Re: Another view of dog evidence
« Reply #89 on: April 10, 2013, 05:16:10 PM »
Let's hope the doggies are wrong!
I wish very deeply that child was found alive, but I'm afraid that will never happen.

Let's try to do her justice and find out what has happened to her.




Edited because I can't comment )


The doggies could be right, but they can't say what they were reacting to. Forensics couldn't determine anything conclusive either.


So far, there is nothing to prove that she is dead, let alone who was responsible. Therefore, as I'm sure you can appreciate, there is a possibility that she could still be alive.

Fair enough. But accounting to the exposure of this case do you honestly believe it? I remember that still in the first half of 2007 (if my memory serves me right) the late Director of Faro PJ said that if the child was alive, the parents by disclosing her coloboma and the mark in her left leg had just killed her. No abductor would keep a child that could be so easily identified

If that little girl were your child, niece, neighbour's child, would you seriously - in the absence of proof to the contrary - deny her that right to be considered missing but potentially alive?

Never.
However, if it was my child I would never do any thing to put her in danger. And furthermore I would help the authorities to help me get her/him back, and never defy them or slander their efforts.
If you are a parent you give your life for your child you don't use your child to make a living.