Author Topic: Why was there no security at Ocean Club?  (Read 14426 times)

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Offline John

Why was there no security at Ocean Club?
« on: April 11, 2013, 01:25:20 PM »
I find it most remarkable that there was little if any security at the Ocean Club resort and especially after dark.

It appears that there were other incidents involving prowlers at the Club and many instances of non resort members gate-crashing the grounds.

One incident is recorded in a statement by OC babysitter Margaret Hall.  She recalls challenging a man who was stood in the shadows directly opposite apartment 5a some months before the abduction.  He had no reason to be there and scurried off when she approached.  It is her opinion that this person was watching the apartment.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARGARET_HALL.htm
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

C.Edwards

  • Guest
Re: Why was there no security at Ocean Club?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2013, 02:38:43 PM »
I find it most remarkable that there was little if any security at the Ocean Club resort and especially after dark.

It appears that there were other incidents involving prowlers at the Club and many instances of non resort members gate-crashing the grounds.

One incident is recorded in a statement by OC babysitter Margaret Hall.  She recalls challenging a man who was stood in the shadows directly opposite apartment 5a some months before the abduction.  He had no reason to be there and scurried off when she approached.  It is her opinion that this person was watching the apartment.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARGARET_HALL.htm

"Other incidents and many instances..."

You've provided a report on the interpretation of one person, which was outside of the resort itself anyway.

I look forward to your documentation on all these other incidents and incidences you refer to.

Offline John

Re: Why was there no security at Ocean Club?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2013, 03:17:25 PM »
It seems that all the keys to all the apartments and the living quarters except the private ones were kept in a safe in the garage and that all maintenance workers had access to them. Doesn't sound very secure to me?

There was nothing stopping any member of staff from having a key cloned.   I wonder has the Club addressed these issues or is it as bad as ever?
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: Why was there no security at Ocean Club?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2013, 03:53:27 PM »
It seems that all the keys to all the apartments and the living quarters except the private ones were kept in a safe in the garage and that all maintenance workers had access to them. Doesn't sound very secure to me?

There was nothing stopping any member of staff from having a key cloned.   I wonder has the Club addressed these issues or is it as bad as ever?


Hmmm. A cloned key doesn't necessarily involve an employee.

Offline Carana

Re: Why was there no security at Ocean Club?
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2013, 04:11:51 PM »
This situation occurred in 2007.

To be fair, security may have increased since.

Lighting has been improved, for example.


C.Edwards

  • Guest
Re: Why was there no security at Ocean Club?
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2013, 08:28:20 PM »
From a Maintenance worker at the OC (taken from the Files) -

Quote
States that only about four months ago he noticed the presence of three gypsies close to a resort warehouse, situated close to the Millenium Restaurant, who were taking existing firewood from there;
. The deponent knows that in that resort zone, as it is a zone of warehouse and also little traffic, it is frequented by individuals of gypsy origin looking for scrap;
. Various robberies have already occurred in this zone and the deponent is of the conviction that the authors of these crimes are individuals of gypsy ethnicity whose identification he does now know;

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LUIS-FERRO.htm

Do you require any more evidence of the numerous security issues at the OC CEdwards?

Well, some relevant ones would be nice.  Ones not out in the middle of nowhere near the millennium restaurant perhaps.

Another OC worker (cecilio do carmo) said "The complex zone is calm and the while the witness is aware of a few small break-ins, the whole situation left her very surprised;" so she doesn't think it's a hotbed of crime.

Yes, I accept there have been break ins, but it isn't specified as anything other than a vague reference to them. My point to John in my original reply (and somewhat tongue in cheek) was that it was a bit rich for him to complain about me making non-detailed posts only for him to refer to a plethora of events and then provide evidence for one...  I'm very satisfied that you've demonstrated there were others.

Why was there no security at the OC?  Cost, I imagine and also that break ins weren't regular enough to warrant the security perhaps?

What has this got to do with the price of cheese? No idea.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 08:45:47 PM by C.Edwards »

C.Edwards

  • Guest
Re: Why was there no security at Ocean Club?
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2013, 10:42:35 PM »
why don't you think that a pattern of robberies / intruders at the apartments, most of which appear to have occurred without any evidence of a break-in has any relevance to the events in Apt 5a on the evening of 3rd May ?

Where is your evidence of there being no evidence of a break in. As far as I can only one falls into that category.

Even if 10 fell into that category, an 11th doesn't have to.

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: Why was there no security at Ocean Club?
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2013, 11:01:05 PM »
In my opinion,  Madeleine's  'security'  was the responsibility of Kate and Gerry McCann


Offline sadie

Re: Why was there no security at Ocean Club?
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2013, 02:05:19 AM »
why don't you think that a pattern of robberies / intruders at the apartments, most of which appear to have occurred without any evidence of a break-in has any relevance to the events in Apt 5a on the evening of 3rd May ?

Where is your evidence of there being no evidence of a break in. As far as I can only one falls into that category.

Even if 10 fell into that category, an 11th doesn't have to.

BWHAHAHA!  I dont think you would make a very good detective!   

Granted that 10 out of 11 isn't proof, but at least if you were a cop,  you should be considering the probability

Offline John

Re: Why was there no security at Ocean Club?
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2013, 03:20:37 AM »
In my opinion,  Madeleine's  'security'  was the responsibility of Kate and Gerry McCann

Do you not think the McCanns had a right to expect reasonable security for their children and their possessions when enjoying the resort which they paid so much for?  Does anyone know if there has been any legal action raised against Mark Warner Ltd?
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

C.Edwards

  • Guest
Re: Why was there no security at Ocean Club?
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2013, 10:03:00 AM »
The first two I cited had no signs of a break in, others were described as having occurred because guests left their doors unlocked, but you see no relevance to this case whatsoever?

Well yes and no.  Firstly a burglar is not the same type of criminal as a child predator/abductor. Yes, I'm sure there are men (and women) out there that fit into both categories, but opportunistic burglaries in unlocked apartments don't tend, judging by the googling I've done this morning, to end in children being abducted. Burglars tend to be sneaky, sly, highly-strung and nervous individuals who do all they can to avoid detection and confrontation.  Studies show that child abductors tend to have a criminal past and a third of them or so have done burglaries, but I've found no such studies showing what percentage of all burglars caught also have been child abductors!  I know it's always possible it was "the first time" but we're talking coincidence upon coincidence here.

What appears to be being done by the supporters of the abduction theory is to demonstrate that Praia da Luz was a hotbed of criminal activity with nefarious types roaming the streets in the hope of taking advantage of an unlocked apartment or two.  This fails to take into account the enormous difference between the criminal types that would be involved in burglaries as opposed to child abduction.  If one were to believe the Sun, for example, every swarthy itinerant for a 100 mile radius would be declared a "weirdo" and "potential abductor" going by the stories that appeared around Gail Cooper's "creepy man" 15 minutes of fame.

Whilst statistics and odds fail to cope with chance events, one has to say that for all this to come to pass, the McCanns would have to have been the unluckiest people in the world.  Firstly this abductor has to hang around for long enough to case out the apartments, then he ignores Paul Gordon's children for the week, then he somehow gets hold of a master key or copy of apartment 5a's key, then he watches and waits, undetected by all for several more days whilst the McCanns repeatedly come and go at night leaving the kids alone, then he decides to strike at an unusual time (not just after the parents leave for the tapas bar, he waits until the coming and going starts, and THEN he strikes and manages to get in and out without leaving a shred of evidence.  And as his victim he chooses a small 3-year old who does not fall into the usual paedophile profile.  So the McCanns had to have all those coincidences happen AND they had to have the bad luck for it to be a paedophile that was into 3 year olds.  Of course those sorts must exist, but think of the odds of them being in the right place at the right time.

And yet in this hotbed of criminal activity, the McCanns at least SAY they chose to leave their apartment unlocked (after Gerry's first statement, of course).  So the OC would have had to have failed to mention the possibility of burglary (I don't know about anyone else, but in an obviously insecure location (how many commentators have pointed out the suitability of 5a for a "sneak attack"? Loads) I'd be very, very sensitive to burglary and break-ins).  That the McCanns still chose to leave their children exposed like this amazes me, but that's just my viewpoint and I'm aware others don't hold the same opinion and, in Portuguese law at least, it would be hard to prove there was intent and so it cannot be constituted as criminal.

Apologies to all concerned for my abusive posts last night, long days, alcohol and forums don't mix.

C.Edwards

  • Guest
Re: Why was there no security at Ocean Club?
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2013, 11:08:55 AM »

I think you're missing the point.  The point is that there had been numerous break-ins at the OC over the previous months and years, some of which occurred without any evidence of an actual physical break-in.  Therefore it is reasonable to assume that should a burglar or (worse) a sex attacker or abductor wish to gain access to one of the apartments they would be able to do the same to Apartment 5A without too much trouble.

I doubt the OC laboured the point to the holiday makers concerning previous criminal acts in the vicinity.  People go on holiday to relax and de-stress, not to worry about the possibility that they will be victims of crime if they are not particularly vigilant at all times - it would be unusual for a holiday venue to want to broadcast how vulnerable their premises could be.

Personally I think the McCanns ARE amongst the unluckiest people in the world, and I'm sure most other people would agree - after all having your child snatched from her bed while she is asleep on holiday is pretty damned unlucky.   Just because an event is rare does not mean it is impossible, I would scarcely have believed it possible that a child could be snatched from a house whilst having her evening bath but it happened. 

Another point - why do you say a 3 year old child does not fit into the usual paedophile profile?  What IS the usual paedophile profile, pray tell?

How do you know that the same level of forensic examination was done for each crime you suppose fits the profile of the McCann case?  You don't and I don't. It's pure supposition.  Declaring that "no evidence was found" is pointless if it wasn't looked for.

Regarding the profiles for peadophiles... blimey, it's a whole new world you have to investigate if you have the time.  Start here http://yellodyno.com/Statistics/statistics_abductions.html  and then be even more amazed by just how coincidentally unlucky the McCanns would have been IF Madeleine was abducted as they claim.

C.Edwards

  • Guest
Re: Why was there no security at Ocean Club?
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2013, 11:57:00 AM »
@ Martha re: "a) Many children of 3 and under have been abused by paedophiles so it is not entirely unheard of"

I challenge you to find something to back up that assertion.  There's way too much on that link to c&p and it's entirely work safe, it's a statistical site.

debunker

  • Guest
Re: Why was there no security at Ocean Club?
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2013, 12:57:18 PM »
@ Martha re: "a) Many children of 3 and under have been abused by paedophiles so it is not entirely unheard of"

I challenge you to find something to back up that assertion.  There's way too much on that link to c&p and it's entirely work safe, it's a statistical site.


A Plymouth nursery where a worker sexually abused children "provided an ideal environment" for her to abuse, an inquiry has found.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-11682161


A nursery worker in South Lanarkshire has admitted sexually assaulting two toddlers enrolled at the child-care centre where he was employed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18023422


A woman nursery worker has been arrested in connection an alleged sex assault on a child in her care.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1221694/Police-arrest-female-nursery-worker-Leeds-child-sex-abuse-charges.html

AND

http://ukpaedos-exposed.com/category/nursery-worker/

C.Edwards

  • Guest
Re: Why was there no security at Ocean Club?
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2013, 01:00:39 PM »
The thing is Martha, although people do horrible things to babies and children, there are three separate categories of abuser: family, acquaintances and strangers.  The examples you've given are acquaintances.  I doubt you're including the T7 as potential abductors/abusers and so the example doesn't work as a parallel to the McCann case which would be a stranger abduction.

The site I linked to is aimed at protecting children from child predators so I bet they'd be delighted with talktalk blocking them as pornography!

Also "read in the papers" is hardly what should pass for evidence or I could open up all sorts of things as "fact"!

Some c&p'd stats from the site - more details are available on there for anyone that can get there.
Quote
• A study examined 403 attempted kidnappings by strangers or slight acquaintances that were reported by police or news media in 45 states from February 2005 to July 2006. It was conducted to learn how such attempts are foiled. The study did not look at successful abductions. Six in ten victims fought back and escaped, according to the ongoing study's initial findings. Three in ten ran away before any physical contact, and about 10% were saved when an adult nearby intervened.
- National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, USA Today 9/06/06

• The words "missing child" call to mind tragic and frightening kidnappings reported in the national news. But a child can be missing for many reasons, and the problem of missing children is far more complex than the headlines suggest. This October 2002 report by the NISMART provides an overview on this cruicial topic.
- US DOJ, National Incidence Studies of Missing, Abducted, Runaway, and Thrownaway Children, October 2002

• Kidnapping is widely recognized to involve very different dynamics and motives depending on the identity of the perpetrators and age of the victim. This June 2000 report by the NIBRS provides an overview of Juvenile Kidnapping Patterns, as well as statistics regarding Three Types of Perpetrators, Victim Age Patterns, Location, Additional Offenses, Weapon Usage, and Time of Day.
- Juvenile Justice Bullentin, June 2000

• Data analyzed for 1999: That year, 115 stereotypical kidnappings were reported - ones in which children were abducted by strangers or barely known acquaintances, taken more than 50 miles, detained at least overnight or held for ransom. Half were sexually assaulted, and 40% were killed.

A much large number of children, about 58,000, were taken that year for shorter periods of time, mostly by people they knew but not relatives. In those cases, nearly half were sexually assaulted; fewer than 1% were killed. Nearly two-thirds were girls, mostly teens.
- David Finkelhor, Director of the Crimes Against Children Research center at the University of new Hampshire in conjunction with the United States Federal Justice Department.

• About one child is slain per 10,000 missing child reports.
- 1990 U.S. Justice Dept.

• In 80% of abductions by strangers, the first contact occurs within a quarter mile of the child's home. In many cases, the abduction does, too.
- 1990 U.S. Justice Dept.

• Most strangers grab their victims on the street or try to lure them into their vehicles.
- 1990 U.S. Justice Dept.

• About 74% of the victims of nonfamily child abduction are girls.
- 1990 U.S. Justice Dept.

• There are about 5700 active cases carried in the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's computerized files
- Smithsonian, Oct. 95.

• In 1988 there were as many as 114,600 attempted abductions of children by non-family members, 4,600 abductions by non-family members reported to police, and 300 abductions by non-family members where the children were gone for long periods of time or were murdered. There were as many as 354,000 children abducted by family members, 450,700 children who ran away, 127,100 children who were thrown away, and 438,200 children who were lost, injured or otherwise missing.
- 1990 U.S. Justice Dept.

• Each year 3,600 to 4,200 children are abducted by someone outside the family; 1/2 of them are age 12 or older; 2/3 are female; at least 19% of these abductors are not strangers to their victims-Finklehor, p. 10. *The chance of a minor being kidnapped by a stranger is 1 in 560, by a family member 1 in 180.
- Discover Magazine as reported by Gannett News Service 5/28/96.

• In a recent study of parents' worries by pediatricians at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, nearly 3/4 of parents said they feared their children might be abducted. 1/3 of parents said this was a frequent worry-a degree of fear greater than that held for any other concern, including car accidents, sports injuries, or drug addiction.
- Redbook, February 1998

• More than 1/5 of the children reported to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children in nonfamily abductions are found dead.
- Smithsonian, Oct. 95.

• More than 750,000 children were reported to police and entered into the FBI's national crime computer in 1993-more than 2,000 missing children a day.
- Associated Press, 9/8/94.

Also, look at: http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/levine/lev_ex.htm

The statistics of stranger abductions for sexual purposes decline dramatically the younger the child gets.  Young children/babies are more likely to be stolen (by strangers) for surrogacy issues but that is also rare. Usually younger children are "stolen to order" making it highly unlikely that if Madeleine was taken, it was for this purpose as Sean and Amelie were right there.

Like I say, the blunt statistics show it is incredibly unlikely that things happened as the McCanns describe.  It isn't proof, but in the absence of proof, you have to look at things like statistical probability in order to determine what is likely to have happened.

As I said, it *could* have happened as the McCanns describe, but they would have to have been statistically incredibly unlucky for this to be true.