Author Topic: Madeleine McCann's parents lose libel case with the European Court of Human Rights  (Read 45582 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

I can.
I am afraid your assessment of the judgement by the ECHR is just as wrong as your initial prediction that the McCann's would win their case.
Have you read the full judgement or just the abridged legal statement?
 
I think when you read something you miss the context totally, ie. when you say “factual basis” the actual wording is “sufficient factual basis”. The word sufficient adds a different context entirely.
 
Also you say
 
facts,...in order for freedom of speech to override defamation is if it has a factual basis
 
In the full statement from the judgement at point 82 it states
 
82. Finally, the Court recalls that, in order to assess the justification of a contested statement, it is necessary to distinguish between factual statements and value judgments. If the materiality of the facts can be proven, the latter do not lend themselves to a demonstration of their accuracy. The requirement that the truth of value judgments be established is impractical and infringes freedom of opinion itself, a fundamental element of the right guaranteed by Article 10. However, even where a statement amounts to a judgement of value, it must be based on a sufficient factual basis, otherwise it would be excessive (Do Carmo de Portugal e Castro Câmara v. Portugal, no. 53139/11, § 31, 4 October 2016, and Egill Einarsson v. Iceland,no 24703/15, § 40, November 7, 2017).
 
It distinguishes between factual statements and value judgments and places no requirement for the truth of value judgments but only that they have “sufficient factual basis”.
The bar is much lower in the case of value judgments and it certainly is not the state of veracity that you have previously claimed.
At least you've tried... So are amarals claims based on sufficient  factual basis.. What do you think is the factual basis for his claims.

There is not sufficient factual basis to prove Maddie died in the apartment... It was the PJ based on their misunderstanding of the evidence.

So what's the difference in my saying CB is guilty...

Offline Wonderfulspam

That is how I read the result of the ECHR judgement.

Unfounded speculation v evidence will win every time.  Bit Alice in Wonderland that.

Maybe the McCanns should have presented some abduction evidence to the SC, but it wouldn't have made any difference.
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Offline Mr Gray

I can.
I am afraid your assessment of the judgement by the ECHR is just as wrong as your initial prediction that the McCann's would win their case.
Have you read the full judgement or just the abridged legal statement?
 
I think when you read something you miss the context totally, ie. when you say “factual basis” the actual wording is “sufficient factual basis”. The word sufficient adds a different context entirely.
 
Also you say
 
facts,...in order for freedom of speech to override defamation is if it has a factual basis
 
In the full statement from the judgement at point 82 it states
 
82. Finally, the Court recalls that, in order to assess the justification of a contested statement, it is necessary to distinguish between factual statements and value judgments. If the materiality of the facts can be proven, the latter do not lend themselves to a demonstration of their accuracy. The requirement that the truth of value judgments be established is impractical and infringes freedom of opinion itself, a fundamental element of the right guaranteed by Article 10. However, even where a statement amounts to a judgement of value, it must be based on a sufficient factual basis, otherwise it would be excessive (Do Carmo de Portugal e Castro Câmara v. Portugal, no. 53139/11, § 31, 4 October 2016, and Egill Einarsson v. Iceland,no 24703/15, § 40, November 7, 2017).
 
It distinguishes between factual statements and value judgments and places no requirement for the truth of value judgments but only that they have “sufficient factual basis”.
The bar is much lower in the case of value judgments and it certainly is not the state of veracity that you have previously claimed.
I've read the full judgement.. I can't put all the details in every post I write but its good you actually are prepared to discuss it when no one else could..

Offline Wonderfulspam

At least you've tried... So are amarals claims based on sufficient  factual basis.. What do you think is the factual basis for his claims.

There is not sufficient factual basis to prove Maddie died in the apartment... It was the PJ based on their misunderstanding of the evidence.

So what's the difference in my saying CB is guilty...

Yes, yes they are based on sufficient factual basis.
It's a fact the cadaver dog alerted inside the apartment & a trace of blood was found, & that the investigators deduced Maddie had snuffed it there. Those are the facts.
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

The ECHR made their decision.
McCann lost.
The end.
If you’re not interested in the discussion, rather than trying to shut it down just don’t read the thread. 
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Wonderfulspam

If you’re not interested in the discussion, rather than trying to shut it down just don’t read the thread.

What's there to discuss?
Davel trying to convince us he's right when he isn't?
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Offline Wonderfulspam

I've read the full judgement.. I can't put all the details in every post I write but its good you actually are prepared to discuss it when no one else could..

Start a thread.
List the mistakes the SC & ECHR made. Enlighten us all with your infinite wisdom.
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Offline kizzy

LOL... You obviously cant answer the question as I predicted

your quote.
I predict a lot of very unhappy sceptics on Tuesday

I dont think your predictions are very reliable ....do you.

Offline jassi

What's there to discuss?
Davel trying to convince us he's right when he isn't?

Precisely, there's nothing worthwhile to discuss.
It's over. McCann lost.

Supporters please do your grieving in private - its more dignified.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Wonderfulspam

Precisely, there's nothing worthwhile to discuss.
It's over. McCann lost.

Supporters please do your grieving in private - its more dignified.

I think the best thing for us all to do now, to bring some harmony to the forum, is to just sit & wait patiently & peacefully until Wolters reveals the concrete evidence. If he really has any that is.
Christian Brueckner Fan Club

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Precisely, there's nothing worthwhile to discuss.
It's over. McCann lost.

Supporters please do your grieving in private - its more dignified.
Stop being so bossy! No one is grieving and since when were we not allowed to discuss news pertaining to this case?  No one is forcing you to read, or even to log on if it’s all so beneath you.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Eleanor

Precisely, there's nothing worthwhile to discuss.
It's over. McCann lost.

Supporters please do your grieving in private - its more dignified.

What?  When it's getting really interesting?  No chance.

Offline jassi

What?  When it's getting really interesting?  No chance.
In what way is it getting interesting?
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Vertigo Swirl

In what way is it getting interesting?
Once again if it doesn’t interest then why are you bothering to log on and read?  Has the paint already dried round your gaff?
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Wonderfulspam


How is any of this arguing going to help find Maddie?
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