Author Topic: As we approach 2023, have we learned anything new?  (Read 41879 times)

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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: As we approach 2023, have we learned anything new?
« Reply #360 on: February 27, 2023, 10:28:36 PM »
It was written in newspapers and so was the AG's quote that the case was archived due to insufficient evidence. That suggests that there was evidence does it not?

I would think that there's not much difference between founded suspicions and justified suspicions.
1) I have never said there was no evidence
2) I was pointing out that the law change included a requirement for justified suspicion in order to be made an arguido whereas previously there was not such a requirement ( you have claimed this is not the case, contrary to the quote from the AG
3) I asked you what was the difference between suspicion and justified suspicion. I have never mentioned founded suspicion.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: As we approach 2023, have we learned anything new?
« Reply #361 on: February 27, 2023, 11:13:56 PM »
But seeing as you asked


reasonable suspicion
noun
: an objectively justifiable suspicion that is based on specific facts or circumstances

Founded suspicion” is a lower level of suspicion than the “reasonable suspicion” required to conduct a “stop” or Level 3 encounter. Upon a founded suspicion of criminality, the officer may approach a person to ask accusatory questions and may seek consent to search; however, consent must be voluntarily given.

suspicion -
a belief or idea that something may be true
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: As we approach 2023, have we learned anything new?
« Reply #362 on: February 28, 2023, 11:15:38 AM »
1) I have never said there was no evidence
2) I was pointing out that the law change included a requirement for justified suspicion in order to be made an arguido whereas previously there was not such a requirement ( you have claimed this is not the case, contrary to the quote from the AG
3) I asked you what was the difference between suspicion and justified suspicion. I have never mentioned founded suspicion.

That's interesting. Because when I correct Moderators who make the demonstrably false claim that there was no evidence at all, against the McCanns, I get warning points.

Why haven't you been given points yet?
Christian Brueckner Fan Club

Offline G-Unit

Re: As we approach 2023, have we learned anything new?
« Reply #363 on: February 28, 2023, 12:41:21 PM »
1) I have never said there was no evidence
2) I was pointing out that the law change included a requirement for justified suspicion in order to be made an arguido whereas previously there was not such a requirement ( you have claimed this is not the case, contrary to the quote from the AG
3) I asked you what was the difference between suspicion and justified suspicion. I have never mentioned founded suspicion.

I find it hard to believe that Encarnacao and Neves created arguidos based on unfounded or unjustified suspicions even before the change in the law.
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: As we approach 2023, have we learned anything new?
« Reply #364 on: February 28, 2023, 02:24:47 PM »
I find it hard to believe that Encarnacao and Neves created arguidos based on unfounded or unjustified suspicions even before the change in the law.

They both believed the lies about the dogs no doubt

Offline Carana

Re: As we approach 2023, have we learned anything new?
« Reply #365 on: February 28, 2023, 03:07:40 PM »
I find it hard to believe that Encarnacao and Neves created arguidos based on unfounded or unjustified suspicions even before the change in the law.

From memory, I'd waded through the changes in procedural law re "suspicion" and posted the differences. The only trace that I can now find is tangential.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=post;quote=204301;topic=5673.45

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: As we approach 2023, have we learned anything new?
« Reply #366 on: February 28, 2023, 03:15:28 PM »
From memory, I'd waded through the changes in procedural law re "suspicion" and posted the differences. The only trace that I can now find is tangential.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=post;quote=204301;topic=5673.45
Nice one Carana, here's one of your old posts which explains the law change

Offline Carana
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Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2013, 11:46:56 AM »
Quote
DCI

I think I've finally found what I was looking for re this arguido business.

(There are other subsections to the Articles, but I've just quoted the ones that are relevant to the point in question.)


Article 58 - a key change in 2007 was adding "...suspeita fundada..." (founded suspicion).

Without attempting a literal translation (i.e. my paraphrasing), I understand the difference to be:
- in the old one: one could be made arguido when the investigation focused on a specific person.
- in the new one: one could be made arguido when the investigation focused on a specific person when there was a well-founded suspicion of that person having committed a crime.

Article 61 - the old point 1.c moved down to 1.d. Again, my paraphrasing: The new 1.c concerns the right to be informed of the imputed facts before making a "declaration" to any entity.

(2000)
Artigo 58.º
(Constituição de arguido)
1 - Sem prejuízo do disposto no artigo anterior, é obrigatória a constituição de arguido logo que:
a) Correndo inquérito contra pessoa determinada, esta prestar declarações perante qualquer autoridade judiciária ou órgão de polícia criminal;
b) Tenha de ser aplicada a qualquer pessoa uma medida de coacção ou de garantia patrimonial;
c) Um suspeito for detido, nos termos e para os efeitos previstos nos artigos 254.º a 261.º; ou
d) For levantado auto de notícia que dê uma pessoa como agente de um crime e aquele lhe for comunicado.


(2007 - in force as of 15 September)
Artigo 58.o
Constituição de arguido
1 — Sem prejuízo do disposto no artigo anterior, é obrigatória a constituição de arguido logo que:

a) Correndo inquérito contra pessoa determinada em relação   qual haja suspeita fundada da prática de crime, esta prestar declarações perante qualquer autoridade judiciária ou órgão de polícia criminal;

b) Tenha de ser aplicada a qualquer pessoa uma medida de coacção ou de garantia patrimonial;

c) Um suspeito for detido, nos termos e para os efeitos previstos nos artigos 254.o a 261.o; ou

d) For levantado auto de notícia que dê uma pessoa como agente de um crime e aquele lhe for comunicado, salvo se a notícia for manifestamente infundada.


---

(2000)
Artigo 61.º
(Direitos e deveres processuais)

1 - O arguido goza, em especial, em qualquer fase do processo e, salvas as excepções da lei, dos direitos de:
a) Estar presente aos actos processuais que directamente lhe disserem respeito;
b) Ser ouvido pelo tribunal ou pelo juiz de instrução sempre que eles devam tomar qualquer decisão que pessoalmente o afecte;
c) Não responder a perguntas feitas, por qualquer entidade, sobre os factos que lhe forem imputados e sobre o conteúdo das declarações que acerca deles prestar;
d) Escolher defensor ou solicitar ao tribunal que lhe nomeie um;
e) Ser assistido por defensor em todos os actos processuais em que participar e, quando detido, comunicar, mesmo em privado, com ele;
f) Intervir no inquérito e na instrução, oferecendo provas e requerendo as diligências que se lhe afigurarem necessárias;
g) Ser informado, pela autoridade judiciária ou pelo órgão de polícia criminal perante os quais seja obrigado a comparecer, dos direitos que lhe assistem;
h) Recorrer, nos termos da lei, das decisões que lhe forem desfavoráveis.



Artigo 61.o
Direitos e deveres processuais
1 — O arguido goza, em especial, em qualquer fase do processo e salvas as excepções da lei, dos direitos de:
a) Estar presente aos actos processuais que directamente lhe disserem respeito;
b) Ser ouvido pelo tribunal ou pelo juiz de instrução sempre que eles devam tomar qualquer decisão que pessoalmente o afecte;
c) Ser informado dos factos que lhe são imputados antes de prestar declarações perante qualquer entidade;
d) Não responder a perguntas feitas, por qualquer entidade, sobre os factos que lhe forem imputados e sobre o conteúdo das declarações que acerca deles prestar;
e) Constituir advogado ou solicitar a nomeação de um defensor;
f) Ser assistido por defensor em todos os actos processuais em que participar e, quando detido, comunicar, mesmo em privado, com ele;
g) Intervir no inquérito e na instrução, oferecendo provas e requerendo as diligências que se lhe afigurarem necessárias;
h) Ser informado, pela autoridade judiciária ou pelo órgão de polícia criminal perante os quais seja obrigado a comparecer, dos direitos que lhe assistem;
i) Recorrer, nos termos da lei, das decisões que lhe forem desfavoráveis.
(2007)

2000 Penal Process Code: http://paulosantos-adv.planetaclix.pt/CPP.htm
2007: I can't find a valid online link. I'd downloaded it as a pdf.


ETA: the PJ might have had a bit of a problem if they'd interviewed them a week later as they would have been entitled to read the DNA "evidence". Ooops.

ETA2: reading it all again, I take back my first ETA just above, as it doesn't actually state that they would be entitled to read the "imputed facts", just to be informed of them.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 11:21:27 PM by Carana »
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline G-Unit

Re: As we approach 2023, have we learned anything new?
« Reply #367 on: February 28, 2023, 03:44:02 PM »
Nice one Carana, here's one of your old posts which explains the law change

Offline Carana
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Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2013, 11:46:56 AM »
Quote
DCI

I think I've finally found what I was looking for re this arguido business.

(There are other subsections to the Articles, but I've just quoted the ones that are relevant to the point in question.)


Article 58 - a key change in 2007 was adding "...suspeita fundada..." (founded suspicion).

Without attempting a literal translation (i.e. my paraphrasing), I understand the difference to be:
- in the old one: one could be made arguido when the investigation focused on a specific person.
- in the new one: one could be made arguido when the investigation focused on a specific person when there was a well-founded suspicion of that person having committed a crime.

Article 61 - the old point 1.c moved down to 1.d. Again, my paraphrasing: The new 1.c concerns the right to be informed of the imputed facts before making a "declaration" to any entity.

(2000)
Artigo 58.º
(Constituição de arguido)
1 - Sem prejuízo do disposto no artigo anterior, é obrigatória a constituição de arguido logo que:
a) Correndo inquérito contra pessoa determinada, esta prestar declarações perante qualquer autoridade judiciária ou órgão de polícia criminal;
b) Tenha de ser aplicada a qualquer pessoa uma medida de coacção ou de garantia patrimonial;
c) Um suspeito for detido, nos termos e para os efeitos previstos nos artigos 254.º a 261.º; ou
d) For levantado auto de notícia que dê uma pessoa como agente de um crime e aquele lhe for comunicado.


(2007 - in force as of 15 September)
Artigo 58.o
Constituição de arguido
1 — Sem prejuízo do disposto no artigo anterior, é obrigatória a constituição de arguido logo que:

a) Correndo inquérito contra pessoa determinada em relação   qual haja suspeita fundada da prática de crime, esta prestar declarações perante qualquer autoridade judiciária ou órgão de polícia criminal;

b) Tenha de ser aplicada a qualquer pessoa uma medida de coacção ou de garantia patrimonial;

c) Um suspeito for detido, nos termos e para os efeitos previstos nos artigos 254.o a 261.o; ou

d) For levantado auto de notícia que dê uma pessoa como agente de um crime e aquele lhe for comunicado, salvo se a notícia for manifestamente infundada.


---

(2000)
Artigo 61.º
(Direitos e deveres processuais)

1 - O arguido goza, em especial, em qualquer fase do processo e, salvas as excepções da lei, dos direitos de:
a) Estar presente aos actos processuais que directamente lhe disserem respeito;
b) Ser ouvido pelo tribunal ou pelo juiz de instrução sempre que eles devam tomar qualquer decisão que pessoalmente o afecte;
c) Não responder a perguntas feitas, por qualquer entidade, sobre os factos que lhe forem imputados e sobre o conteúdo das declarações que acerca deles prestar;
d) Escolher defensor ou solicitar ao tribunal que lhe nomeie um;
e) Ser assistido por defensor em todos os actos processuais em que participar e, quando detido, comunicar, mesmo em privado, com ele;
f) Intervir no inquérito e na instrução, oferecendo provas e requerendo as diligências que se lhe afigurarem necessárias;
g) Ser informado, pela autoridade judiciária ou pelo órgão de polícia criminal perante os quais seja obrigado a comparecer, dos direitos que lhe assistem;
h) Recorrer, nos termos da lei, das decisões que lhe forem desfavoráveis.



Artigo 61.o
Direitos e deveres processuais
1 — O arguido goza, em especial, em qualquer fase do processo e salvas as excepções da lei, dos direitos de:
a) Estar presente aos actos processuais que directamente lhe disserem respeito;
b) Ser ouvido pelo tribunal ou pelo juiz de instrução sempre que eles devam tomar qualquer decisão que pessoalmente o afecte;
c) Ser informado dos factos que lhe são imputados antes de prestar declarações perante qualquer entidade;
d) Não responder a perguntas feitas, por qualquer entidade, sobre os factos que lhe forem imputados e sobre o conteúdo das declarações que acerca deles prestar;
e) Constituir advogado ou solicitar a nomeação de um defensor;
f) Ser assistido por defensor em todos os actos processuais em que participar e, quando detido, comunicar, mesmo em privado, com ele;
g) Intervir no inquérito e na instrução, oferecendo provas e requerendo as diligências que se lhe afigurarem necessárias;
h) Ser informado, pela autoridade judiciária ou pelo órgão de polícia criminal perante os quais seja obrigado a comparecer, dos direitos que lhe assistem;
i) Recorrer, nos termos da lei, das decisões que lhe forem desfavoráveis.
(2007)

2000 Penal Process Code: http://paulosantos-adv.planetaclix.pt/CPP.htm
2007: I can't find a valid online link. I'd downloaded it as a pdf.


ETA: the PJ might have had a bit of a problem if they'd interviewed them a week later as they would have been entitled to read the DNA "evidence". Ooops.

ETA2: reading it all again, I take back my first ETA just above, as it doesn't actually state that they would be entitled to read the "imputed facts", just to be informed of them.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 11:21:27 PM by Carana »

Founded suspicion! That's what the prosecutor said there was, even if the law didn't demand it at the time.
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Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
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Offline Eleanor

Re: As we approach 2023, have we learned anything new?
« Reply #368 on: February 28, 2023, 03:46:44 PM »
Founded suspicion! That's what the prosecutor said there was, even if the law didn't demand it at the time.

What Founded Suspicion?

This is getting really boring now?

Offline G-Unit

Re: As we approach 2023, have we learned anything new?
« Reply #369 on: February 28, 2023, 03:51:13 PM »
What Founded Suspicion?

This is getting really boring now?

Article 58 - a key change in 2007 was adding "...suspeita fundada..." (founded suspicion).

Without attempting a literal translation (i.e. my paraphrasing), I understand the difference to be:
- in the old one: one could be made arguido when the investigation focused on a specific person.
- in the new one: one could be made arguido when the investigation focused on a specific person when there was a well-founded suspicion of that person having committed a crime.
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: As we approach 2023, have we learned anything new?
« Reply #370 on: February 28, 2023, 03:57:34 PM »
Article 58 - a key change in 2007 was adding "...suspeita fundada..." (founded suspicion).

Without attempting a literal translation (i.e. my paraphrasing), I understand the difference to be:
- in the old one: one could be made arguido when the investigation focused on a specific person.
- in the new one: one could be made arguido when the investigation focused on a specific person when there was a well-founded suspicion of that person having committed a crime.
Quite.  You missed that bit out when you had your revelation a few days back.  IIRC you claimed that the only change to the law was that a judge had to validate an arguido.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2023, 04:02:34 PM by Venturi Swirl »
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Carana

Re: As we approach 2023, have we learned anything new?
« Reply #371 on: February 28, 2023, 04:21:15 PM »
Thanks VS! I couldn't find any trace of it, annoying as it had taken ages.

Offline Carana

Re: As we approach 2023, have we learned anything new?
« Reply #372 on: February 28, 2023, 05:03:48 PM »
Article 58 - a key change in 2007 was adding "...suspeita fundada..." (founded suspicion).

Without attempting a literal translation (i.e. my paraphrasing), I understand the difference to be:
- in the old one: one could be made arguido when the investigation focused on a specific person.
- in the new one: one could be made arguido when the investigation focused on a specific person when there was a well-founded suspicion of that person having committed a crime.

A bit that is missing /not clear from that post is that arguidos had the right to be informed of the so-called evidence. on which the suspicions were based. For example showing them the dog videos presumably constituted "evidence".

However, AFAIK, they were never given the Lowe report to read (the only reference I've found was in Kate's book that a bit of paper had been waved in the air). Two doctors would have understood that the report hadn't ascertained the fate of the child, nor anything incriminatory. It was used as a bluff, IMO.

Offline G-Unit

Re: As we approach 2023, have we learned anything new?
« Reply #373 on: February 28, 2023, 08:08:53 PM »
Quite.  You missed that bit out when you had your revelation a few days back.  IIRC you claimed that the only change to the law was that a judge had to validate an arguido.

I didn't find it, but neither did anyone else, did they? The AG wasn't far off, but the McCann's lawyer was. The media really doesn't supply reliable cites, does it?
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: As we approach 2023, have we learned anything new?
« Reply #374 on: February 28, 2023, 08:57:59 PM »
I didn't find it, but neither did anyone else, did they? The AG wasn't far off, but the McCann's lawyer was. The media really doesn't supply reliable cites, does it?
Which cite are you referring to as being unreliable in this instance?
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".