The Madeleine got out on her own theory.

[Vertigo Swirl]

Ether though? Are you in the ether club?


Arse.

Have you ever seen me claiming the use of ether in this case?  I can’t rule out the possibility but think it’s unlkiely.

[Vertigo Swirl]

We've been down this road. It's impossible, or at least extremely difficult, to nail down a timeline due to the disceprancies in the evidence and the witness statements. It might be a first.
To take Gerry and Kates' statements as true means you have to throw out all statements that contradict them; and vice versa. Then there's the kids club records (which I think were hastily scribbled by staff to cover up the fact that they hadn't been doing it properly) - they're almost useless.
The CCTV is almost non-existent. The paucity of photographs despite cameras being in use.

That said, you're right, the dogs alerted to cadaver odour / blood of someone in the apartment and on belongings of the McCanns. So somebody was lying there dead for a prolonged period.
How many people pre-2007 knew about cadaverine production? Not many laypersons I'd wager. It's possible the McCanns realised the issue, but realised too late.

So basically you refuse to accept anything that’s in the files as reliable apart from 1) the dog alerts and 2) The Smith sighting.  I see.  Well how about you start with these two apparently inconrovertible pieces of proof that 1) Madeleine was dead in the apartment before the McCanns went to dinner and 2) That Gerry carried her corpse down the road for all to see.   You have carte blanche to make up anything you like around these so called facts.  Off you go.

[The General]

Once again I did not say the dogs were reliable, you know I didn’t say the dogs were reliable and yet you continue to say that I did.  I think that’s called gaslighting (or perhaps just being a tit).

But you did, a number of times now. By admitting tracker dogs track scent, you admit that cadaver dogs detect cadaverine. De facto, you agree that they detect cocaine, etc.
So the alerts are a sticking point as we can't adequately explain them. Chance? And they only alert in and around 5a and the belongings of the McCanns? Conscious / subconscious cues? Yet Martin Grime can't detect human 'fluids' behind couches with his eyes (unless it's a puddle of piss).
It's a problem. It's more than that, it's insurmountable.

[The General]

So basically you refuse to accept anything that’s in the files as reliable apart from 1) the dog alerts and 2) The Smith sighting.  I see.  Well how about you start with these two apparently inconrovertible pieces of proof that 1) Madeleine was dead in the apartment before the McCanns went to dinner and 2) That Gerry carried her corpse down the road for all to see.   You have carte blanche to make up anything you like around these so called facts.  Off you go.

You're racking up the fallacies and falsehoods early today, I see. Who's wanklighting now?
I specifically mentioned the witness statements that somehow manage to contradict eachother an extraordinary amount. I also specifically mentioned the creche logs which I am sure were hastily doctored to give the impression of more rigour than was actually being applied.
The rest of the files, well the PJ did a remarkable job of compiling a tremendous body of work for us to study. The work on the phone logs was excellent, and would have been world class if not for some rapid log deletions and more accurate phone mast triangulation abilities.
They also log the thousands of man hours burnt in vain chasing fabricated phantoms around Europe. It's all there, we've all read them.
There's nothing in there about Brueckner though, save for a later admission that they attempted to trace all known nonces, including him. I'll bet dozens weren't in / fled / died / moved when they arrived.
I wonder if they chapped on Clement Freud's door? The fat nonce.

[Vertigo Swirl]

You're racking up the fallacies and falsehoods early today, I see. Who's wanklighting now?
I specifically mentioned the witness statements that somehow manage to contradict eachother an extraordinary amount. I also specifically mentioned the creche logs which I am sure were hastily doctored to give the impression of more rigour than was actually being applied.
The rest of the files, well the PJ did a remarkable job of compiling a tremendous body of work for us to study. The work on the phone logs was excellent, and would have been world class if not for some rapid log deletions and more accurate phone mast triangulation abilities.
They also log the thousands of man hours burnt in vain chasing fabricated phantoms around Europe. It's all there, we've all read them.
There's nothing in there about Brueckner though, save for a later admission that they attempted to trace all known nonces, including him. I'll bet dozens weren't in / fled / died / moved when they arrived.
I wonder of the chapped on Clement Freud's door? The fat nonce.

Classic avoidance and deflection.  Given carte blanche to come up with a remotely plausible and logical theory that hangs on your two overriding beliefs (ie 1) Madeleine dead in the apartment before 8.30pm and 2) Gerry being seen by the Smiths) you baulk at it.  Why am I not surprised?  No one else has managed it in 18 years so why would you?

[Vertigo Swirl]

But you did, a number of times now. By admitting tracker dogs track scent, you admit that cadaver dogs detect cadaverine. De facto, you agree that they detect cocaine, etc.
So the alerts are a sticking point as we can't adequately explain them. Chance? And they only alert in and around 5a and the belongings of the McCanns? Conscious / subconscious cues? Yet Martin Grime can't detect human 'fluids' behind couches with his eyes (unless it's a puddle of piss).
It's a problem. It's more than that, it's insurmountable.

Yes, dogs track humans, yes dogs find bodies, yes dogs detect cocaine, but where did I ever admit they were reliable 100% of the time?  Perhaps you could do me a favour and provide a cite?  You claimed with 100% certainty that the dog alerted to cadavarine in the apartment, now prove it (or is a woof enough proof for you, cos it sure as hell isn’t enough proof for any of the professionals engaged in investigating this case - ask yourself why not if you can bear to).

[The General]

Yes, dogs track humans, yes dogs find bodies, yes dogs detect cocaine, but where did I ever admit they were reliable 100% of the time?  Perhaps you could do me a favour and provide a cite?  You claimed with 100% certainty that the dog alerted to cadavarine in the apartment, now prove it (or is a woof enough proof for you, cos it sure as hell isn’t enough proof for any of the professionals engaged in investigating this case - ask yourself why not if you can bear to).

Again, here with the constant lies.

End of discussion. Good evening.

[Lace]

All of that takes more time than running achild over and sticking her in the boot. Much more time. You seem to be missing the point, or avoiding it because you don't like the logic.
Ether? He's a Victorian scoundrel doctor now? He struggled to obtain diesel legally or otherwise, ffs, never mind a Victorian potion.

No it didn't he was basically in and out.  The drugs were found in his lair.  Obviously you haven't read what they found.

[The General]

No it didn't he was basically in and out.  The drugs were found in his lair.  Obviously you haven't read what they found.

You say 'lair', I say 'squat', or 'crack den'.
Lair, my arse. He's not Lex Luthor, ffs, he's a hobo; caught for every crime he's ever committed.

Lair......fckin hell.

And where's this cache of (extremely volatile, higly flammable) ether?
You're right when you say I obviously haven't read it, because it doesn't exist.

You know about ether, right? You must've researched it.
This abduction is taking on more sophisticated modus operandi with every passing day according to you.
So, quite apart from the may issues I listed previously, he now has to procure ether, which isn't widely available, safely store it secretly (he may need a lair for this part, granted), find a safe method to decant it without, probably using an FFP3 half-face respirator and chemical gloves, then find a suitable means of administering the correct dose onto a medium (let's pretend he used a large handkerchief like in the movies, but bear in mind he didn't bother using it on any of his alleged previous victims) inside the apartment, not spill a fcking drop, then smother wee Maddie with his chosen method (without being affected by the fumes himself, so maybe he had the respirator on again which is totally inconspicuous), pick up her limp body, climb out the window without disturbing anything - no sign, then escaped successfully and got away with the whole thing.
Now I typed it out like that, it all makes perfect sense - to an imbecile.

[Vertigo Swirl]

Again, here with the constant lies.

End of discussion. Good evening.

Thank god, that’s two down none to go, result.

[Vertigo Swirl]

You say 'lair', I say 'squat', or 'crack den'.
Lair, my arse. He's not Lex Luthor, ffs, he's a hobo; caught for every crime he's ever committed.

Lair......fckin hell.

And where's this cache of (extremely volatile, higly flammable) ether?
You're right when you say I obviously haven't read it, because it doesn't exist.

You know about ether, right? You must've researched it.
This abduction is taking on more sophisticated modus operandi with every passing day according to you.
So, quite apart from the may issues I listed previously, he now has to procure ether, which isn't widely available, safely store it secretly (he may need a lair for this part, granted), find a safe method to decant it without, probably using an FFP3 half-face respirator and chemical gloves, then find a suitable means of administering the correct dose onto a medium (let's pretend he used a large handkerchief like in the movies, but bear in mind he didn't bother using it on any of his alleged previous victims) inside the apartment, not spill a fcking drop, then smother wee Maddie with his chosen method (without being affected by the fumes himself, so maybe he had the respirator on again which is totally inconspicuous), pick up her limp body, climb out the window without disturbing anything - no sign, then escaped successfully and got away with the whole thing.
Now I typed it out like that, it all makes perfect sense - to an imbecile.

yeah, chloroform is more likely (though I’m open minded about the use of a sedative by an abductor in this case).
“Chloroform has been used by criminals to knock out, daze, or murder victims. Joseph Harris was charged in 1894 with using chloroform to rob people.[64] Serial killer H. H. Holmes used chloroform overdoses to kill his female victims. In September 1900, chloroform was implicated in the murder of the U.S. businessman William Marsh Rice. The serial killer John Wayne Gacy chloroformed many of his victims. Chloroform was deemed a factor in the alleged murder of a woman in 1991, when she was asphyxiated while asleep.[65] In 2002, 13-year-old Kacie Woody was sedated with chloroform when she was abducted by David Fuller and during the time that he had her, before he shot and killed her.[66] In a 2007 plea bargain, a man confessed to using stun guns and chloroform to sexually assault minors.[67]”

[The General]

No it didn't he was basically in and out.  The drugs were found in his lair.  Obviously you haven't read what they found.

They found a reference to 'ether' in one of his stories on a file in the USB under the dead dog.
They didn't find 'the drugs' in his 'lair' / abandoned warehouse.
Now who hasn't read the reports?

[Vertigo Swirl]

They found a reference to 'ether' in one of his stories on a file in the USB under the dead dog.
They didn't find 'the drugs' in his 'lair' / abandoned warehouse.
Now who hasn't read the reports?

They found the chemical substances in his Jaguar car which was in his lair, and the officials speculated that they could have contained ether or chloroform (though the dumkopfs didn’t bother to test the chemicals before destroying them).  What other sort of chemicals would a rapist, robber and child molester store in multiple bottles in the boot of his car I wonder?  It would have been good to find out…

[Vertigo Swirl]

Anyway, we're off topic.  This thread is to discuss the theory that Madeleine woke and wandered.  If dogs are reliable (and apparently I have claimed they are so it must be true) then it's a slam dunk and the mystery can now be solved.  According to the dogs she left the apartment, walked once round the OC block then disappeared by the carpark, almost certainly run over before her body was then transported back to Apt 5A in a hermetically sealed casket of some sort (a fridge maybe?) from which it was then removed and laid by the sofa for a bit so the other dogs could alert to its presence some months later.  The question is - were her parents complicit in the return of the body to the apartment after she was knocked down by the German lady and was she in on it from the beginning too, as a hired assassin?

[Lace]

They found a reference to 'ether' in one of his stories on a file in the USB under the dead dog.
They didn't find 'the drugs' in his 'lair' / abandoned warehouse.
Now who hasn't read the reports?

From the story CB wrote -  As per the doc, the story reads: "As she came to the car, holding her daughter's hand and opened the rear door, I was already behind them both with a cloth soaked in ether in my hands