The tracker dogs

[ferryman]

Dogs pressed for service into tracking duties, even though not trained in that discipline.

Read the bit about the debate whether it was worth giving them anything (of Madeleine's to sniff) even though dedicated tracker dogs can't work any other way.

There's your proof.

The GNR did not have dedicated tracker dogs.

But they experimented.

No criticism of them for that.

But they were equipped with dogs of the wrong discipline for the type of search required.

[G-Unit]

Dogs pressed for service into tracking duties, even though not trained in that discipline.

Read the bit about the debate whether it was worth giving them anything (of Madeleine's to sniff) even though dedicated tracker dogs can't work any other way.

There's your proof.

The GNR did not have dedicated tracker dogs.

But they experimented.

No criticism of them for that.

But they were equipped with dogs of the wrong discipline for the type of search required.

My cites contradict your unsupported assertions. You appear to be mistaken ferryman.

[Eleanor]

My cites contradict your unsupported assertions. You appear to be mistaken ferryman.

Thank you for being polite.

[ferryman]

Thank you for being polite.

If, also, wrong!

[G-Unit]

If, also, wrong!

Please provide the evidence on which your opinions rest. If you cannot, I am right and the GNR did have tracker dogs and they were used to track Madeleine on 4th May at 2300.

[Eleanor]

I imagine in the first instance they just bring in any dog they have got in the area.  I don't blame them for that initial issue.

Have you watched The Green Mile?  if not then don't.  It won't help.

[Robittybob1]

Have you watched The Green Mile?  if not then don't.  It won't help.

The air scenting dogs might have helped if Madeleine had gone into open country (seriously wandered off) or if the abductor was carrying her across country.

[Robittybob1]

The initial dogs seemed to have some ground tracking ability as well for both of the teams tracked a similar path (as far as I understand it as per that photo with the dotted lines).

[Brietta]

The initial dogs seemed to have some ground tracking ability as well for both of the teams tracked a similar path (as far as I understand it as per that photo with the dotted lines).

I don't think that photograph is an accurate representation of the path taken by the dogs, Robittybob1.  There is a thread somewhere on the forum where we thrashed it out and actually reached agreement ... can't remember which one.
Maybe someone else can help?

[G-Unit]

From their training and experience, search and rescue dogs can be classified broadly as either air scenting dogs or trailing (and tracking) dogs.

Air-scenting dogs primarily use airborne human scent to home in on subjects, whereas trailing dogs rely on scent of the specific subject. Air-scenting dogs typically work off-lead, are usually, though not always, non-scent-discriminating (e.g., locate scent from any human as opposed to a specific person),

Tracking dogs will typically work on lead and will mostly have their nose to the track following ground disturbance. A good tracking dog will be able to work through a variety of terrain as well as successfully maneuver turns and "double backs" that a subject might take.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_and_rescue_dog

[G-Unit]

I don't think that photograph is an accurate representation of the path taken by the dogs, Robittybob1.  There is a thread somewhere on the forum where we thrashed it out and actually reached agreement ... can't remember which one.
Maybe someone else can help?

I can't help with the thread, perhaps it was before my time? I think the photograph is accurate, it was part of the report submitted after the dogs followed the route on 8th May [the second time they did it, the first time being on 4th May]. The various descriptions of the route match the photo pretty much;

when outside, the dog turned toward [directed itself to] Block 4. However, at the corner of Block 5, it turned left heading for the path between the building and the leisure area - pools and restaurant - going on to turn left [again], i.e. going around the building, setting out for the main street, crossing the road to the wall of Block 6. There, it sniffed the bottom, turned to the right - going down the road - taking itself to the car park next to Block 6 where its search [took it] to a lamppost where it then became confused and stopped the search

Further, in an informal conversation with the GNR team, they advised that on the 4 May they had done the same work, with no control over the direction taken by the dogs, i.e. they were not directed into the buildings, it being certain that they took the same route described above, with the same attitude, losing the trail next to the car park of Block 6.

It is also certain that the course that they made to the car park next to Block 6 was done without hesitation and in a most convincing manner.
- To better understand the routes taken by the dogs, there are attached four images/maps of the area of the Ocean Club resort, the route taken by the dogs from Block 5 to the car park being marked in red and yellow.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/INFORMATION-SERVICE.htm

The photograph described is filed here;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MAPS_PJ.htm#p3p829

[Brietta]

I can't help with the thread, perhaps it was before my time? I think the photograph is accurate, it was part of the report submitted after the dogs followed the route on 8th May [the second time they did it, the first time being on 4th May]. The various descriptions of the route match the photo pretty much;

when outside, the dog turned toward [directed itself to] Block 4. However, at the corner of Block 5, it turned left heading for the path between the building and the leisure area - pools and restaurant - going on to turn left [again], i.e. going around the building, setting out for the main street, crossing the road to the wall of Block 6. There, it sniffed the bottom, turned to the right - going down the road - taking itself to the car park next to Block 6 where its search [took it] to a lamppost where it then became confused and stopped the search

Further, in an informal conversation with the GNR team, they advised that on the 4 May they had done the same work, with no control over the direction taken by the dogs, i.e. they were not directed into the buildings, it being certain that they took the same route described above, with the same attitude, losing the trail next to the car park of Block 6.

It is also certain that the course that they made to the car park next to Block 6 was done without hesitation and in a most convincing manner.
- To better understand the routes taken by the dogs, there are attached four images/maps of the area of the Ocean Club resort, the route taken by the dogs from Block 5 to the car park being marked in red and yellow.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/INFORMATION-SERVICE.htm

The photograph described is filed here;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MAPS_PJ.htm#p3p829

I've found (I think) what I was looking for G-Unit.

Snip
Then it gets silly. They turned left again and headed towards the road. At the road they turned left again, and headed towards the T Junction. They then crossed the road to the wall of Block 6, turned right and headed towards the car park south of Block 6. It's unlikely that Madeleine or an abductor took that route. I wonder what the dogs were following? What a shame they can't talk
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1620.msg306176#msg306176

The dog headed left UP the hill to the main road, where it crossed the road. Both handlers stated that.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1620.msg306233#msg306233

I have looked closely at the dog handler's statement, and there is actually a mistranslation. The dogs turned left after exiting the alleyway. I have posted about it previously, I'll try to find it later.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1620.msg306234#msg306234

Yes "fechada" obviously here means "locked".
So the scent trail of a missing child is tracked by one dog to the outer door of that reception building, and that tracking is then abandoned, just because the door was locked, so the dog is unable to continue tracking!
And so the dog team never finds out whether the child had entered that door, whether the child then also went through the inner door, whether the child continued into the pools area. If I was the officer in charge I would have urgently requested a key.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1620.msg306759#msg306759

Maybe I went too far in stating 'agreement' ... but that was how I remembered it.  If it is correct that the dogs turned left and uphill before turning right and progressing down hill ... it makes the illustration of the route they followed inaccurate.
Similarly if one also progressed to the door of reception and the tapas area.

[G-Unit]

I've found (I think) what I was looking for G-Unit.

Snip
Then it gets silly. They turned left again and headed towards the road. At the road they turned left again, and headed towards the T Junction. They then crossed the road to the wall of Block 6, turned right and headed towards the car park south of Block 6. It's unlikely that Madeleine or an abductor took that route. I wonder what the dogs were following? What a shame they can't talk
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1620.msg306176#msg306176

The dog headed left UP the hill to the main road, where it crossed the road. Both handlers stated that.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1620.msg306233#msg306233

I have looked closely at the dog handler's statement, and there is actually a mistranslation. The dogs turned left after exiting the alleyway. I have posted about it previously, I'll try to find it later.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1620.msg306234#msg306234

Yes "fechada" obviously here means "locked".
So the scent trail of a missing child is tracked by one dog to the outer door of that reception building, and that tracking is then abandoned, just because the door was locked, so the dog is unable to continue tracking!
And so the dog team never finds out whether the child had entered that door, whether the child then also went through the inner door, whether the child continued into the pools area. If I was the officer in charge I would have urgently requested a key.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1620.msg306759#msg306759

Maybe I went too far in stating 'agreement' ... but that was how I remembered it.  If it is correct that the dogs turned left and uphill before turning right and progressing down hill ... it makes the illustration of the route they followed inaccurate.
Similarly if one also progressed to the door of reception and the tapas area.

Ha ha, that was me saying they turned left towards the T Junction, so I was involved. I was corrected by pegasus;

 #979 on: February 07, 2016, 11:45:18 PM »
Quote
@GUnit.
"Wall of block 6" means the  west end wall (several storys high) of the block 6 building.
The GNR dogs trail did not head towards the T-junction.
Emerging from the alleyway the dogs went east across Rua Martins then south along the east pavement of Rua Martins.

The photograpn was produced by the guy who observed the dogs on 8th May but not on 4th May. The handlers told him about the dogs taking the same route on 4th, but perhaps they didn't mention the last bit abut the Tapas doorway?

It's difficult to assess this tracking anyway. Two people say the dogs sniffed Madeleine's blanket, three people say it was a towel. As a result it's not possible to be sure they were following Madeleine's scent.

She is said to have used the path just once, when she ran away.

She probably crossed that road frequently on her way to Kid's Club.

How often did Madeleine use the front door?

Sunday;

Following this they returned to the apartment, the deponent opened the main door with his key and, then, the rear door through which KATE and the children entered.

Tuesday lunchtime;

They all left by the main door due to the carriages, went around to the right, down the street of the supermarket and went to the beach along a road directly ahead.

Thursday lunchtime;

the deponent left by the front door and the rest of the family by the rear door that, once again, he shut and locked from the inside. As to the front door, he does not know exactly if he locked it.

Thursday 1730

KATE and the children entered by the rear door, after this had been opened from the inside by the deponent.

That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they left the residence by the main door, to place the children in the respective creches, MADELEINE left [went] running to the left to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they had gone down to the furthest point away from those blocks, not knowing exactly how, the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]. Then they followed the inside corridor [pathway] at the rear, next to the hedges [fences] up to the street that led to the secondary reception.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

So it may have been Wednesday lunchtime when the children ran to the left. A fairly faint trail by Friday 11pm, but the dogs followed it. Once they emerged from the path the scent would possibly improve; the last time she crossed the road was possibly Thursday morning on her way to Kid's Club.

On reaching the car park the strongest scent would be Thursday teatime when she was brought to high tea with Catriona. When the dog reached the Tapas entrance, however, the strongest scent of all should have been picked up; Thursday at 17.30 returning to the apartment side gate and up to the patio doors. According to Kate, though, she was carried on that occasion. Is that why the last scent trail wasn't picked up?

[John]

Why do you think she walked that way every day John?

As they couldn't lock the patio door from the outside I assumed they all left by the main door of 5a, accessing the car park at the front, walked around the block and down the road in order to gain access via mini reception to the grounds and the twins club beyond.  After leaving the twins off at their club, retracing their steps and going out via mini reception, across the road towards main reception and Madeleine's club which was located on the floor above it.

Didn't the GNR tracker dogs follow this route too?

[John]

The air scenting dogs might have helped if Madeleine had gone into open country (seriously wandered off) or if the abductor was carrying her across country.

The patrol dogs would have been used initially simply to search for human scent in out of the way places like down dry culverts, in abandoned buildings and gardens and on rough ground surrounding the town. The second lot of dogs from the GNR school could track a scent regardless of whether it was ground or air borne.  To do this they required a target scent thus why the officers asked for something belonging to the missing child.