Author Topic: The tracker dogs  (Read 135990 times)

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Offline Brietta

Re: The tracker dogs
« Reply #465 on: September 24, 2016, 12:43:24 AM »
Madeleine slept with her blanket, it must have been saturated with her scent.  Which is probably why the dog handlers chose it in preference to her clothing.
Why then would a damp towel which may have been used by others or even to dry the bath or the floor be chosen to replace the blanket?  Seems decidedly odd.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 06:33:34 PM by John »
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Carana

Re: The tracker dogs
« Reply #466 on: September 24, 2016, 01:01:47 AM »
Madeleine slept with her blanket, it must have been saturated with her scent.  Which is probably why the dog handlers chose it in preference to her clothing.
Why then would a damp towel which may have been used by others or even to dry the bath or the floor be chosen to replace the blanket?  Seems decidedly odd.


That's why I wonder if the reports made by the different handlers were indeed referring to distinct items...

Offline Robittybob1

Re: The tracker dogs
« Reply #467 on: September 24, 2016, 01:06:46 AM »
Madeleine slept with her blanket, it must have been saturated with her scent.  Which is probably why the dog handlers chose it in preference to her clothing.
Why then would a damp towel which may have been used by others or even to dry the bath or the floor be chosen to replace the blanket?  Seems decidedly odd.
I think a towel would have picked up billions of skin cells as it is rubbed across Madeleine's skin, so I tend to think it would be a very good item for the tracker dogs are searching for skin cells on the ground.
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Offline Brietta

Re: The tracker dogs
« Reply #468 on: September 24, 2016, 01:13:34 AM »
I think a towel would have picked up billions of skin cells as it is rubbed across Madeleine's skin, so I tend to think it would be a very good item for the tracker dogs are searching for skin cells on the ground.

Undoubtedly.

But what provenance was there that those billions of skin cells on a towel were exclusive to Madeleine ... or even hers?
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Carana

Re: The tracker dogs
« Reply #469 on: September 24, 2016, 01:20:11 AM »
I think a towel would have picked up billions of skin cells as it is rubbed across Madeleine's skin, so I tend to think it would be a very good item for the tracker dogs are searching for skin cells on the ground.

The largest fabric object with a maximum of her scent on it at the time would have been either the bedding or her blanket, I would have thought.

A towel might have been as well, if for some reason there was a specific reason for the handlers to believe that a specific towel would have had primarily her scent on it.... but I can't find anything in the files to that effect.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: The tracker dogs
« Reply #470 on: September 24, 2016, 01:24:50 AM »
The largest fabric object with a maximum of her scent on it at the time would have been either the bedding or her blanket, I would have thought.

A towel might have been as well, if for some reason there was a specific reason for the handlers to believe that a specific towel would have had primarily her scent on it.... but I can't find anything in the files to that effect.
Well Goncalo says it though. 
Quote
We get them to sniff a towel which, according to Kate, was used to dry Madeleine after her bath.
page #56 online version.

The blanket which is not evidenced as returned.  But the details surrounding the towel do not mention how or who or when it is determined it was Madeleine's (other than in Goncalo's book).   
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 01:41:19 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline misty

Re: The tracker dogs
« Reply #471 on: September 24, 2016, 01:35:34 AM »
The GNR final report is at variance with the dog handlers' statements.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

On 7th May the same searches were continued, being extended to to the entire northern part of Almadena to the site of Espojeiro and the verges of the EN125 until the Boi valley.

At about 19.. the undersigned officer, accompanied by the Commander, Officer Silva, took part in a meetings with the PJ Directorate, being asked by the PJ about the viability of giving the girl's clothes to the dogs for the dogs to sniff again, and if by means of the odour inhaled, they would be able to mark an identical odour in one of the resort apartments even though its door was closed.

With regard to this task, Officer Silva referred to the fact that the time that had passed would be a crucial condition for the dogs' work in obtaining results and that the entirety of the human odours existing in the apartments and access paths could make the dogs' searches very difficult. However, in spite of not being a normal situation for tracking, it could be attempted, whilst the operation should be carried out as quickly as possible and not directed towards one but to all the apartments in the resort, it being appropriate for the handler not to know which apartment was chosen, so as not the be conditioned.

In this concrete situation, the objective would be for the dogs to carry out a discontinuous search, in other words, to sniff the girl's clothes and immediately search near to the apartments, checking to see if there was any change in the behaviour of the dogs.

At about 23.00 accompanied by a PJ inspector, the searches were begun. After Rex was given the girl's clothing to sniff, he began to search on the ground floor of block 5 and when he passed the door of apartment 5 A (the place the girl had disappeared from) according to his handler, officer Fernandes, the dog altered its behaviour, sniffing with greater intensity than he had done before. Apartment 5J of the same block was also checked as the dog had been more agitated than before as if there were a very strong strange odour there. It was stated that this apartment had been unoccupied for some time. Afterwards, the same kind of search was carried out using the dog Zarus which in general terms showed the same behaviour in the same places as Rex had done

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clothing allegedly used for scenting & no mention of following the same route as on the night of the 4th.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: The tracker dogs
« Reply #472 on: September 24, 2016, 02:54:30 AM »
Undoubtedly.

But what provenance was there that those billions of skin cells on a towel were exclusive to Madeleine ... or even hers?
That was my original concern too.  Maybe Kate or Gerry could determine that it was Madeleines to begin with.
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Offline G-Unit

Re: The tracker dogs
« Reply #473 on: September 24, 2016, 09:16:34 AM »

I don't see any confirmation that there were two distinct items provided to the dogs (as opposed to the same item being given a different label by search officers more concerned with having a large object with her scent on it).

Even the Portuguese, I imagine, can tell the difference between a small blanket and a bath towel. They had no reason to suggest drying if the item was a blanket either.

What they were given is quite clear. When it was given to them and by whom is less clear, but the parents are mentioned. No-one else would know which towel had been used, so that makes sense. As has been pointed out, Kate was distraught and forgot to mention giving the second item to the police. After all, she was mistaken about when she gave them the blanket; she thought it was later than it actually was.
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ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The tracker dogs
« Reply #474 on: September 24, 2016, 09:29:09 AM »
The dogs were not supplied with anything (that would have been of any use to them in attempting to track Madeleine's scent; nor could they have been)!

That's they key point.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: The tracker dogs
« Reply #475 on: September 24, 2016, 09:30:22 AM »
.... After all, she was mistaken about when she gave them the blanket; she thought it was later than it actually was.
Could you document that claim too please?   Just so this thread becomes fully useful reference please.  I don't doubt you.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 09:42:09 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: The tracker dogs
« Reply #476 on: September 24, 2016, 09:31:41 AM »
The dogs were not supplied with anything (that would have been of any use to them in attempting to track Madeleine's scent; nor could they have been)!

That's they key point.
That seems a ridiculous claim.  Back it up please.
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ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The tracker dogs
« Reply #477 on: September 24, 2016, 09:42:28 AM »
That seems a ridiculous claim.  Back it up please.

I have done so countless times.  Dogs pressed into service for tracking purposes came from a search-and-rescue core.  Search and rescue work is the work of air-scenting dogs.

Mark Harrison said the Portuguese had deployed air-scenting dogs.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: The tracker dogs
« Reply #478 on: September 24, 2016, 09:44:23 AM »
I have done so countless times.  Dogs pressed into service for tracking purposes came from a search-and-rescue core.  Search and rescue work is the work of air-scenting dogs.

Mark Harrison said the Portuguese had deployed air-scenting dogs.
I followed that up with some investigation and air scenting dogs can do tracking work as well.  It is not hard and fast.
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Offline G-Unit

Re: The tracker dogs
« Reply #479 on: September 24, 2016, 10:04:22 AM »
The GNR final report is at variance with the dog handlers' statements.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

On 7th May the same searches were continued, being extended to to the entire northern part of Almadena to the site of Espojeiro and the verges of the EN125 until the Boi valley.

At about 19.. the undersigned officer, accompanied by the Commander, Officer Silva, took part in a meetings with the PJ Directorate, being asked by the PJ about the viability of giving the girl's clothes to the dogs for the dogs to sniff again, and if by means of the odour inhaled, they would be able to mark an identical odour in one of the resort apartments even though its door was closed.

With regard to this task, Officer Silva referred to the fact that the time that had passed would be a crucial condition for the dogs' work in obtaining results and that the entirety of the human odours existing in the apartments and access paths could make the dogs' searches very difficult. However, in spite of not being a normal situation for tracking, it could be attempted, whilst the operation should be carried out as quickly as possible and not directed towards one but to all the apartments in the resort, it being appropriate for the handler not to know which apartment was chosen, so as not the be conditioned.

In this concrete situation, the objective would be for the dogs to carry out a discontinuous search, in other words, to sniff the girl's clothes and immediately search near to the apartments, checking to see if there was any change in the behaviour of the dogs.

At about 23.00 accompanied by a PJ inspector, the searches were begun. After Rex was given the girl's clothing to sniff, he began to search on the ground floor of block 5 and when he passed the door of apartment 5 A (the place the girl had disappeared from) according to his handler, officer Fernandes, the dog altered its behaviour, sniffing with greater intensity than he had done before. Apartment 5J of the same block was also checked as the dog had been more agitated than before as if there were a very strong strange odour there. It was stated that this apartment had been unoccupied for some time. Afterwards, the same kind of search was carried out using the dog Zarus which in general terms showed the same behaviour in the same places as Rex had done

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clothing allegedly used for scenting & no mention of following the same route as on the night of the 4th.

That report was requested by Rebelo on 15th November 2007, and was signed by Major Sequeira
the GNR officer in overall charge of the searches. It is dated 30 November 2007. I assume it was produced in response to the request, otherwise it would be dated earlier.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAULO_REBELO.htm

Because of the time lapse I used the testimony of those involved who gave early statements rather than his report, which contains omissions and mistakes. It  makes no mention of the first attempt at tracking by the GNR patrol dog, and the search of the apartments on 8th May he says was on 7th, and he has no knowledge of them going down the path again, which the handler says they did.

I see this report as an overview in which some details have been missed. He wasn't there, the dog handlers were.
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