Author Topic: Anne's theory that Madeleine was murdered before being removed.  (Read 7441 times)

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Offline Benice

Re: Anne's theory that Madeleine was murdered before being removed.
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2013, 03:57:03 PM »
Matthew had a guilty conscience about what happened.  Nobody knows for sure if he went right up to the shutters or just listened momentarily as he passed.  Maybe he missed the shutters being open in the gloom??

I think he may have had a guilty conscience because he didn't actually make sure Madeleine was in her bed at his 9.30 check - but then why would he think to do that?  He'd established that all was quiet and so assumed the children were all asleep, so all was well and he left.

His previous check - the one carried out just before 9.00p.m. was not pre- planned or requested by anyone.  He had gone to hurry up the Paynes, but when he met them he was half way to the apartments and so decided to carry on and check his own children. On the way back, also because he was in the vicinity - he decided to check outside the window of 5A - which he did and so could confirm that the shutters were down.   

His normal route back did not take him past 5A.   At no time did he pass the window.

When returning - he would normally leave the path at the access point which was in the centre of the apartment block in order to cross the carpark  - instead of doing that he had to carry on along that path to get to 5A.  So why would he take the trouble to make that diversion and then not listen properly when he got there?   

After checking he then had to turn round and retrace his footsteps along that path back to the centre of the block where he had access to the carpark which he would then cross to leave by the carpark entrance.

Lovely Heri has a great arial piccie showing  the route to and from the Tapas/ apartments which everyone but the McCanns would take via the carpark entrance  - and which clearly shows that it did not involve passing by the front of apartment 5A.    Hopefully if he reads this he might post it.   It explains everything far better than I can.


   
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Anne's theory that Madeleine was murdered before being removed.
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2013, 03:57:16 PM »
I didn't start this thread. I had only tried and imagined a possibility that would conciliate the McCanns' innocence and Eddie's findings. Some (including me) said they were surprised the McCanns, after their first and understandable denying the dogs' alerts, went on discrediting them whereas they'd be expected to contemplate the eventuality Madeleine died. Instead they went on claiming there's was no evidence "whatsoever" she had been harmed ! Not recognizing even that she couldn't but have gone through a terrible traumatic shock...

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Anne's theory that Madeleine was murdered before being removed.
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2013, 04:03:06 PM »
MO's bedroom windows (one big and one small) were very close to the MC childrens' bedroom unique window as these two bedrooms have a common wall.

Offline Benice

Re: Anne's theory that Madeleine was murdered before being removed.
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2013, 04:10:32 PM »

No idea, Anne. I'm not a burglar, neither have I ever harmed anyone.

Even a few minutes of shock wouldn't explain Eddie's alert so long after.

He/she could have knocked her out, taken her out and subsequently discovered that he was in a mess.

If she wasn't dead and he didn't know what to do, have all convents, sects, "alternative communities", etc., been thoroughly checked?
I'm not a burglar too and luckily didn't kill accidentally someone. But I'm a human being..
It's not impossible to think an intruder remained quite a time in the flat. We know that Mr Oldfield lied (must have listened to the window) and if Mr McCann went into the flat, he limited his visit to the bathroom as usual.
Death comes in a couple of minutes when air pipes are obstructed, especially the jugular arteries.

Why do you say Matt Oldfield lied? I've seen no evidence of that.
MO described the McCann childrens' bedroom as his was (2 windows), he said the curtains were green instead of lilac, could only see 1 twin, and not 2, according to the SP photos, should have wondered where was Madeleine since the bed under the window was undone, etc. Besides it was pointless to get inside and only listen. His check isn't on one of the timelines.

Sorry but why are they lies and not simply mistakes?   Memories are not tape recorders - and it's not unusual for someone to get things wrong/muddled  when they are trying to recall something which was not important at the time and so they had no need to make any special effort to remember it. 


The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Anne's theory that Madeleine was murdered before being removed.
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2013, 04:15:48 PM »
Many mistakes lead to suspicion. In MO's case he likely just wanted to help on the topic of regular and responsible checking, unless he couldn't have seen the shutters were closed. He seems rather bad at lying...

Offline Carana

Re: Anne's theory that Madeleine was murdered before being removed.
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2013, 04:22:37 PM »

No idea, Anne. I'm not a burglar, neither have I ever harmed anyone.

Even a few minutes of shock wouldn't explain Eddie's alert so long after.

He/she could have knocked her out, taken her out and subsequently discovered that he was in a mess.

If she wasn't dead and he didn't know what to do, have all convents, sects, "alternative communities", etc., been thoroughly checked?
I'm not a burglar too and luckily didn't kill accidentally someone. But I'm a human being..
It's not impossible to think an intruder remained quite a time in the flat. We know that Mr Oldfield lied (must have listened to the window) and if Mr McCann went into the flat, he limited his visit to the bathroom as usual.
Death comes in a couple of minutes when air pipes are obstructed, especially the jugular arteries.


Why do you say that?

Offline Benice

Re: Anne's theory that Madeleine was murdered before being removed.
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2013, 04:33:22 PM »
Many mistakes lead to suspicion. In MO's case he likely just wanted to help on the topic of regular and responsible checking, unless he couldn't have seen the shutters were closed. He seems rather bad at lying...

.......If you believe he was lying.   

I can't think of any reason why he should  - so although I would agree that not everything he said may be accurate - I believe nothing he said was with the intention of deliberately deceiving anyone.   That's also my opinions of all of them.   
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Anne's theory that Madeleine was murdered before being removed.
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2013, 04:54:19 PM »
On this I agree with you. I don't think any of the TP7 deliberately obstructed the investigation. Let's say MO wasn't saying the truth. For the good cause.

Offline Benice

Re: Anne's theory that Madeleine was murdered before being removed.
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2013, 05:14:48 PM »
On this I agree with you. I don't think any of the TP7 deliberately obstructed the investigation. Let's say MO wasn't saying the truth. For the good cause.

I don't think you are agreeing with me Anne.  You are suggesting he didn't tell the truth in order to be 'helpful', which is the same as saying he deliberately lied imo.    I'm saying he sincerely and truthfully related events from his memory - but no-one's memory can be guaranteed to reproduce perfect recall.   

I can say that I remember it rained here yesterday at 3.00p.m.   If it's later established that it was 2.30p.m. that doesn't mean I lied -  it means I was mistaken because my memory of the precise time was wrong.

   
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Anne's theory that Madeleine was murdered before being removed.
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2013, 05:27:02 PM »
On this I agree with you. I don't think any of the TP7 deliberately obstructed the investigation. Let's say MO wasn't saying the truth. For the good cause.

I don't think you are agreeing with me Anne.  You are suggesting he didn't tell the truth in order to be 'helpful', which is the same as saying he deliberately lied imo.    I'm saying he sincerely and truthfully related events from his memory - but no-one's memory can be guaranteed to reproduce perfect recall.   

I can say that I remember it rained here yesterday at 3.00p.m.   If it's later established that it was 2.30p.m. that doesn't mean I lied -  it means I was mistaken because my memory of the precise time was wrong.

 
Oh sorry, Benice, I didn't express myself correctly. Suggesting that MO didn't say the truth in order to be helpful meant that regardless of the investigation that couldn't be influenced by his statement (he believed an abduction had occurred) since he wouldn't pretend Madeleine was there or not, he thought that all would benefit of stating the kids were checked every 30 minutes. We know that MO didn't check his daughter at 10 nor asked Mrs McCann to do it for him...


Offline Benice

Re: Anne's theory that Madeleine was murdered before being removed.
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2013, 05:30:57 PM »
MO's bedroom windows (one big and one small) were very close to the MC childrens' bedroom unique window as these two bedrooms have a common wall.

You are quite right Anne, for some reason I had MO staying in another apartment further along, which is incorrect.  Apols for that error.

However, it doesn't change the fact that MO's usual route from his apartment back to the tapas did not involve him walking in front of the McCann apartment.    He would have to turn right instead of left when leaving his own apartment to make a check at Madeleine's window and then turn round and walk back in front of his own apartment and carry on along that path to reach the access to the carpark. 

My main concern here is that some people seem to think that everyone who went to and from their apartments walked past 5A - and hence also walked past Madeleine's bedroom window.    The only people who ever did that were the McCanns on the occasions when they entered or left 5a via the carpark entrance.






The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Anne's theory that Madeleine was murdered before being removed.
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2013, 05:42:37 PM »
Yes, Benice. Only when crossing the private car park towards the hall could or couldn't one notice whether a window had shutters abnormally open. We're not all sharp-eyed (I'm not !).