So It Wasn't Madeleine's Blood In The Apartment

[muratfan]

August 16, 2007

Traces of blood discovered in the bedroom where Madeleine McCann was sleeping on the night that she disappeared do not come from the missing girl, The Times has learnt.

The conclusion that the blood came from a man follows two weeks of reports that the traces proved that Madeleine had been killed in the Algarve holiday apartment.

The finding will give fresh hope to Kate and Gerry McCann, who have said that they continue to believe that their daughter will still be found alive 105 days after she was taken from her bed.

The minute spots of blood, which were discovered on a bedroom wall by British sniffer dogs, had been sent for testing at the headquarters of the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham.

The four pages of technical results conclude that the blood did not come from Madeleine.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article2595723.ece

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1559608/Madeleine-McCann-Blood-found-in-bedroom.html

[Carana]

What blood? Nothing was forensically identified as being blood in that apartment, as far as I'm aware.

I've never even found a mention of DNA on the bedroom wall.

[muratfan]

There was blood found which belonged to the occupant before the McCanns. He bled whilst shaving

[ferryman]

What blood? Nothing was forensically identified as being blood in that apartment, as far as I'm aware.

I've never even found a mention of DNA on the bedroom wall.

I'm really not sure about that.  For instance, there was definitely something on the key card from which Gerry's dna was extracted, but it wasn't specifically identified as blood.

If not blood, then what?

Or is it simply that in the report, they don't trouble to say what the body fluid is from which a result has been extracted, even though they do know it's blood?

After all, what's important is, not the material from which a dna result has been extracted, but the result itself.

ETA:  Lowe does say that it is not possible to identify the material from which results are extracted by low copy number DNA. 

And I reckon Grime takes that a stage further in saying Keela, in particular, will detect blood even when they can't find a trace in the laboratory.

I don't think that (statement of Grime's) is true ...

[Benice]

What blood? Nothing was forensically identified as being blood in that apartment, as far as I'm aware.

I've never even found a mention of DNA on the bedroom wall.

I'm really not sure about that.  For instance, there was definitely something on the key card from which Gerry's dna was extracted, but it wasn't specifically identified as blood.

If not blood, then what?

Or is it simply that in the report, they don't trouble to say what the body fluid is from which a result has been extracted, even though they do know it's blood?

After all, what's important is, not the material from which a dna result has been extracted, but the result itself.

ETA:  Lowe does say that it is not possible to identify the material from which results are extracted by low copy number DNA. 

And I reckon Grime takes that a stage further in saying Keela, in particular, will detect blood even when they can't find a trace in the laboratory.

I don't think that (statement of Grime's) is true ...

I'm very doubtful about that too - as if this was true then why didn't Keela alert in the other apartments?  I refuse to believe that out of the  thousands of people who passed through those apartments in the previous years (remember Grime claims she could detect blood from over 40 years ago) not one of them ever cut themselves or had a nosebleed or had some injury from which blood was deposited somewhere within those apartments.   The same goes for the cars.

[debunker]

What blood? Nothing was forensically identified as being blood in that apartment, as far as I'm aware.

I've never even found a mention of DNA on the bedroom wall.

I'm really not sure about that.  For instance, there was definitely something on the key card from which Gerry's dna was extracted, but it wasn't specifically identified as blood.

If not blood, then what?

Or is it simply that in the report, they don't trouble to say what the body fluid is from which a result has been extracted, even though they do know it's blood?

After all, what's important is, not the material from which a dna result has been extracted, but the result itself.

ETA:  Lowe does say that it is not possible to identify the material from which results are extracted by low copy number DNA. 

And I reckon Grime takes that a stage further in saying Keela, in particular, will detect blood even when they can't find a trace in the laboratory.

I don't think that (statement of Grime's) is true ...

I'm very doubtful about that too - as if this was true then why didn't Keela alert in the other apartments?  I refuse to believe that out of the  thousands of people who passed through those apartments in the previous years (remember Grime claims she could detect blood from over 40 years ago) not one of them ever cut themselves or had a nosebleed or had some injury from which blood was deposited somewhere within those apartments.   The same goes for the cars.

Remember that dogs:

1/ have a failure rate of between 30-90% for false positives and false negatives and
2/ respond to handler cuing.

That is why they are only indicators of evidence, not evidence usable easily in court. Mr Grime says this every time he talks about evidence- it can only be taken seriously if backed by forensics.

[Carana]

There was blood found which belonged to the occupant before the McCanns. He bled whilst shaving

I don't recall any blood found. An occupant had made a statement about a shaving incident.

[ferryman]

I'm very doubtful about that too - as if this was true then why didn't Keela alert in the other apartments?  I refuse to believe that out of the  thousands of people who passed through those apartments in the previous years (remember Grime claims she could detect blood from over 40 years ago) not one of them ever cut themselves or had a nosebleed or had some injury from which blood was deposited somewhere within those apartments.   The same goes for the cars.

Exactly so!

That is the converse argument to the one which runs: why did Eddie only alert to places where Madeleine had been (we will be kind and gloss over that Madeleine never went near the villa, the gym or the car) ...

It does defy belief that the places Madeleine frequented are the only ones where anyone lost blood.  That and the fact that Eddie spent inordinately more time in the places Madeleine, either had been, or was associated with, (eg the car) than anywhere else

[ferryman]

There was blood found which belonged to the occupant before the McCanns. He bled whilst shaving

I don't recall any blood found. An occupant had made a statement about a shaving incident.

As I've asked, is it that no blood was found?  Or simply that Lowe doesn't trouble to identify the material?

[Carana]

There was blood found which belonged to the occupant before the McCanns. He bled whilst shaving

I don't recall any blood found. An occupant had made a statement about a shaving incident.

As I've asked, is it that no blood was found?  Or simply that Lowe doesn't trouble to identify the material?

I certainly haven't found any substance identified as blood in that apartment in Lowe's report.

[ferryman]

Probably because Lowe doesn't trouble to identify the material (even though the material is blood) ...

Remember that stuff is sent only where the blood dog alerts.

And the blood dog alerts, alone, to blood ...

[DCI]

There was blood found which belonged to the occupant before the McCanns. He bled whilst shaving

Yes Paul Gorton.

Statement by Paul Anthony Gordon

While we were in Portugal there were no incidents worthy of record, beyond this man that I have described, however there was one occasion when I cut myself shaving in the bathroom of the apartment. I would say that the cut bled for about 45 minutes and that it took some time until the cut stopped bleeding, during which period I walked around the apartment with paper tissues trying to stop the blood. Aside from this, to the best of my knowledge no one else cut themselves nor did anyone die in the apartment.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm

[debunker]

Probably because Lowe doesn't trouble to identify the material (even though the material is blood) ...

Remember that stuff is sent only where the blood dog alerts.

And the blood dog alerts, alone, to blood ...

A dog alerting to blood does not mean that blood is or was there.

[ferryman]

Probably because Lowe doesn't trouble to identify the material (even though the material is blood) ...

Remember that stuff is sent only where the blood dog alerts.

And the blood dog alerts, alone, to blood ...

A dog alerting to blood does not mean that blood is or was there.

False alerts such as Keela's to the curtain, you mean?

A curtain was sent to the FSS because Keela alerted and they could find no trace of blood at the FSS ...

The curtains (286A/2007 - CR/L 16 and 16B) and the piece of white curtain (286B/2007 - CR/L 1) and the fragments of bushes (286/2007 CR/L 21) were examined for the presence of blood. No blood was found.


John Lowe ...

[debunker]

Probably because Lowe doesn't trouble to identify the material (even though the material is blood) ...

Remember that stuff is sent only where the blood dog alerts.

And the blood dog alerts, alone, to blood ...

A dog alerting to blood does not mean that blood is or was there.

False alerts such as Keela's to the curtain, you mean?

A curtain was sent to the FSS because Keela alerted and they could find no trace of blood at the FSS ...

The curtains (286A/2007 - CR/L 16 and 16B) and the piece of white curtain (286B/2007 - CR/L 1) and the fragments of bushes (286/2007 CR/L 21) were examined for the presence of blood. No blood was found.


John Lowe ...

Checking in a lab can neither confirm nor disconfirm whether blood was there if the trace is too small. DOgs can discriminate better than technical measurements currently.