If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?

[ferryman]

The alert to the car was corroborated as Gerry's blood.

And from the apartment, wasn't the blood of Lino Henrique, a Portuguese officer identified?

[Mrs. B]

The alert to the car was corroborated as Gerry's blood.

And from the apartment, wasn't the blood of Lino Henrique, a Portuguese officer identified?

Yes, thanks for correction, what I meant to say was that there was no forensic corroboration supporting Amaral's theory that Madeleine died in the apartment or was transported in the hire car.

[ferryman]

Yes, thanks for correction, what I meant to say was that there was no forensic corroboration supporting Amaral's theory that Madeleine died in the apartment or was transported in the hire car.

Ah!  Yes quite right.

I've often wondered if the McCanns would have been made arguidos at all if Grime had deployed his dogs professionally, as, I believe the Portuguese handlers actually did their dogs.

[south of the river]

ARE YOU COMPLETELY UNAWARE OF WHY POLICE FORCES AROUND THE WORLD USE DOGS.

Duh, duh and duh again.

without going over old ground again - of course police use dogs no one is saying that dogs are not a fantastic tool for a lot of cases - but in most cases you do need to find evidence that corroborates a dogs alert .

I use the scenario of say coming through customs and one of the many drug dogs at airports alerts to you - this happened to me -  I wasn't arrested  and imprisoned - I was searched and a piece of fruit was found in my hand luggage - the handler said it might have been that but he cant be 100% sure  - my luggage and myself wa given a good search - they then thanked me for being patient and I was on my way,.

The point being that the dog smelt something - but I was 100% innocent of carrying drugs - nothing was found ie no corroborating evidence -  you cant just go with the dogs as the only tool

The other thing about the alerts which doesn't make any sense - Even If I go with theory that Maddie died in flat and body was disposed that night- I just cannot for a minute think that a month later they went back to said very secure hiding place and moved in the hire care - but that must be the case as the dogs alerted to the car - ??

[registrar]

Unfortunately, nobody can ask the dogs, a) they never could speak b) they're dead, i,e. they can never be tested for accuracy c) according to their own handler, Mr. Grime: Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed. The signals of an alert are only just that. Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc.

Not ONE of the alerts were later corroborated by forensics, which according to Mr. Grime, render the dog alerts meaningless.

True, that's why those dogs have as much/little value as dowsing

Not dissing dowsing - but it's a game of chance - NOT science

If the dowsing rod indicates an underground stream/metal ore or whatever - and one cares to get a shovel out and dig - and finds no such thing.

Then the game is lost - simple as. Try again, another day.

No different to the dogs - they indicate and that indication needs to be corroberated by scientific evaluation - didn't happen in the McCann case.

Game over, woof, woof I'm afraid. 

[faithlilly]

There has been a suggestion that the abductor was already in the appartment when Gerry arrived to do his check at 9pm, was possibly disturbed and hid until Gerry had left again.

Where did he hide ? If he was disturbed by Gerry he would in all probability have been in the children's bedroom and the first thing he would have known was Gerry opening the patio doors. From where Gerry would have been standing there is a direct line of sight to the children's bedroom so he couldn't have left the bedroom and we know from Amaral's documentary that it was virtually impossible to hide in the bedroom so where did he conceal himself ?

[faithlilly]

if this was a planned abduction ie the culprits had been watching the flat for a few nights - then they will have known the 20 /30 minute check routine, - so it makes sense that as soon as a check was done  and the checker left then that was the optimum time.

My own theory and nothing more than a theory - is that this was two people . One entered by the patio as it was known to be unlocked and then handed a sleeping or maybe even drugged Maddie out of the window to an accomplice who then just walked towards a waiting car which was parked a little way  away. Acomplice leaves - meets up in car and then hits the road . They could be in Spain  within the hour - certainly by the time the police got there and started to work out what happened.

This would take minutes - and would fit the timings - as soon as Gerry left the flat and started to walk away - perp one enters - places a handkerchief over maddies mouth - subdues her with some chloroform, or similar.- opens shutters and hands Maddie out to perp 2 -

And the Smith sighting ?

[faithlilly]

A child missing.  Raised shutters, open window, 4 eye witnesses, a forensic disaster -  plus no motive, no means and no time for the parents or their friends to have removed Madeleine from 5A and disposed of her body.   That's evidence to me.

Why don't you give us your theory of what happened Stephen?

Until we know exactly what happened that night we have no idea whether the McCanns had motive. If the parents or their friends are not telling the truth about the timeline that night there is certainly means and opportunity. There is no witness, not even their friends who passed by the very window several times, who saw that window or the shutters open before Ate's alarm so feasibly it could have been Kate who opened them.

Don't know what you mean about 4 eye witnesses so could you please explain ?

[faithlilly]

The alert to the car was corroborated as Gerry's blood.

And from the apartment, wasn't the blood of Lino Henrique, a Portuguese officer identified?

Could you expand on your last comment please ?

[south of the river]

And the Smith sighting ?

My own opinion is that the Tanner sighting and the Smith sighting were of two different people . I cant see any potential snatch at say 9.10 ish to still be wandering the streets of town 50 minutes later.

Who knows who the smiths saw - it could have been a normal tourist wandering back from  a restaurant/ bar with own child who for whatever reason didn't come forward - who knows.  The pros and cons of the Smiths and what he did see have been discussed ad nauseam -

I just can see it being Gerry running around looking for a hiding place minutes before the discovery was scheduled to happen and he was needed to be back at the restaurant.-

[faithlilly]

True, that's why those dogs have as much/little value as dowsing

Not dissing dowsing - but it's a game of chance - NOT science

If the dowsing rod indicates an underground stream/metal ore or whatever - and one cares to get a shovel out and dig - and finds no such thing.

Then the game is lost - simple as. Try again, another day.

No different to the dogs - they indicate and that indication needs to be corroberated by scientific evaluation - didn't happen in the McCann case.

Game over, woof, woof I'm afraid.

There are many cases where a cadaver dog has alerted and no body was found yet years later the alerts were found to be correct, Zappata a case used by the McCanns themselves and Prout are two that easily spring to mind, so while the evidence of the dogs may not be strong enough to be used in court on their own at the moment that does not mean that in the future they won't be and it is certainly is not game over.

[Eleanor]

Where did he hide. If he was disturbed by Gerry he would in all probability have been in the children's bedroom and the first thing he would have known was Gerry opening the patio doors. From where Gerry would have been standing there is a direct line of sight to the children's bedroom so he couldn't have left e bedroom and we know fromAmaral's documentary that it was virtually impossible to hide in the bedroom so where did he conceal himself ?

Behind the bedroom door or in the wardrobe.  Gerry wasn't exactly looking for anyone.

[Lace]

Yes police dogs are used around the world,  but sometimes they get it wrong.

[Eleanor]

There are many cases where a cadaver dog has alerted and no body was found yet years later the alerts were found to be correct, Zappata a case used by the McCanns themselves and Prout are two that easily spring to mind, so while the evidence of the dogs may not be strong enough to be used in court on their own at the moment that does not mean that in the future they won't be and it is certainly is not game over.

Mr. Prout did not kill his wife in the living room where the dog alerted.  He killed her in a shooting lodge and then disposed of the body from there.  The dog did not alert to the crime scene or the grave.

[faithlilly]

Behind the bedroom door or in the wardrobe.  Gerry wasn't exactly looking for anyone.

Amaral demonstrated it was impossible for an abductor to hide behind the bedroom door,  besides the abductor would have to have moved the door to get behind it and Gerry would have noticed that and the cots where in front of the wardrobe doors so no hiding place there.