Question:

[ferryman]

thanks, I dont see how that differs, isnt mr A sayng they were considering murder by others and not parental?

From what Amaral says in his book, Harrison is supposed to have hinted Kate and Gerry were responsible.

[ferryman]

Somehow, in Spanish it's even WORSE....

Even worse in what respect, Mrs B.

[Mrs. B]

Even worse in what respect, Mrs B.

Can't really explain why, the "misinterpretations" of the actual facts just seem more eye popping in Spanish than in English, purely a personal feeling, I guess.

[Redblossom]

From what Amaral says in his book, Harrison is supposed to have hinted Kate and Gerry were responsible.

Right, not seen that passage, even if he thought it was hinted, so? The remit was to consider the stranger murder scenario, AFAIAW and dont see anythng strange here at all or lying, but seeing as I have not read that part in the book or Harrisons reports in full I shall leave it here and let others put their opinions in

[Carana]

El Mundo is not a pay-site so I'm not quite sure where you get the idea from that anything is behind a pay wall?

Besides, it's been translated

Actually, from the site, you may be able to pull out the Portuguese original?

http://www.elmundo.net/poltica//deben-hispanos-dar-el-voto-a-horsford-congresista-xavier-becerra.html#.UbCrkUDFWtk

Well something's odd.

The link to the original of the article (the one you first mentioned) only seems to go as far as the Calpol bit.

P.- Entonces, ¿de qué estamos hablando?
R.- De un accidente. La niña pudo caerse de un sofá, pudo haber un accidente con el Calpol (un somnífero). Nosotros nunca tuvimos acceso a la ficha clínica de la niña, así que no podemos saber si estaba sana o no. Sólo podemos especular. Hay muchos detalles muy raros.

Texto íntegro de este artículo

[Carana]

http://mercedessigueaqui.blogspot.co.uk/2008/09/caso-madeleine-mccann-gerry-mccann.html

I believe this is the relevant part, see link for whole article

P.- ¿Qué es lo que cree que pudo haber sucedido aquella noche?

R.- Tanto la Policía portuguesa como la británica, e incluso el fiscal, que ya ha cambiado de opinión, pensamos lo mismo. Hemos hablado de muerte por terceros, no de homicidio. En la habitación se encontró sangre y olor a cadáver justo debajo de una ventana en la que había un sofá. El padre estuvo un rato hablando con un amigo justo fuera de esa ventana. La niña no tenía un sueño muy pesado, eso lo dijeron los padres. Quizás la niña oyó al padre y se subió al sofá debajo de la ventana. Pero los padres, para que la niña no saliera, lo habían retirado de la pared. Madeleine se pudo haber caído.

Ah. Ok Thanks. Will read.

[ferryman]

Well something's odd.

The link to the original of the article (the one you first mentioned) only seems to go as far as the Calpol bit.

P.- Entonces, ¿de qué estamos hablando?
R.- De un accidente. La niña pudo caerse de un sofá, pudo haber un accidente con el Calpol (un somnífero). Nosotros nunca tuvimos acceso a la ficha clínica de la niña, así que no podemos saber si estaba sana o no. Sólo podemos especular. Hay muchos detalles muy raros.

Texto íntegro de este artículo

As you've pointed out, it's a pay site, so what you can read without paying is only part of the article.

Would that be it?

[Mrs. B]

That's from September of 2008 & he still hadn't bothered to check the most basic facts "....pudo haber un accidente con el Calpol (un somnífero)."

[ferryman]

Right, not seen that passage, even if he thought it was hinted, so? The remit was to consider the stranger murder scenario, AFAIAW and dont see anythng strange here at all or lying, but seeing as I have not read that part in the book or Harrisons reports in full I shall leave it here and let others put their opinions in

Key part underlined:

It's July. The hypothesis of death, including by the parents, is being seriously considered. However, no lead has yet come to anything, and we find ourselves in a cul-de-sac. We have to re-centre the investigation around its point of departure, apartment 5A at the Ocean Club, in Vila da Luz. We officially request the help of the best experts in criminology and forensics but also the specialist dog team from the English police. A few days later, we welcome Mark Harrison, a specialist in murder, and the search for missing persons and victims of natural disasters. National advisor to the British police, he is well known for his exceptional professional experience. He has already participated in dozens of international criminal investigations.

His work consists of defining new strategies for research. He gets to work immediately, supported by the Portuguese PJ and the investigators from Leicester and Scotland Yard. On his arrival, we place at his disposal details of the case, as well as all our material and human resources. Harrison reads up on the statements and interviews from the principal witnesses - including, of course, those of the parents and friends -, all the analyses, simulations, hypotheses and cross-checking already carried out. He carries out a reconnaissance on the ground, by helicopter and then on foot. He paces the streets and the access roads to Vila da Luz and compares them to the diagrams created in the course of the investigation. Nothing is left to chance: measurement and timing of possible routes between buildings, apartments and restaurants; analyses, with the help of the best specialists, of weather, geological and maritime factors in relation to the investigation; consultation with the best forensic anthropologist in the country, who indicates for us what would be the actual state of the body in the hypothesis of death occurring on May 3rd; study of the region's natural carrion predators. All the research already conducted by hundreds of people - GNR, civil defence, firemen and other volunteers - is re-examined in detail and re-analysed.

After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz. He praises the quality of the work carried out by the Portuguese authorities in trying to find the little girl alive. According to him, the time has come to redirect the searches in order to find, this time, a body hidden in the surrounding area.

AMAZING STATISTICS

Great Britain has at its disposal the world's biggest data bank on homicide of children under five years old. Since 1960, the count is 1528. Harrison is well acquainted with its contents. He often draws information from there which helps him to resolve similar cases. Valuable information can be found there on on various criminal modus operandi, places where bodies are hidden, techniques used to get rid of a body. He relates that on one occasion, thanks to the data, he was able to deduce the maximum distance a body might be found in relation to where the crime had been committed.

The figures quoted in the report he hands over give us the shivers. The crimes, including those of a sexual nature, are committed by the parents in 84% of cases; 96% are perpetrated by friends and relatives. In only 4% of them is the murderer or abductor a total stranger to the victim. In this roundabout way, Mark Harrison points out that the guilty party may be a person close to Madeleine, and even her own parents. From now on, we have to explore this track, especially as the others have proved fruitless.

Harrison also suggests that we use the skills of two totally remarkable dogs: the first an EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog), achieves outstanding performance in the detection of human cadaver odour; the second, a CSI dog (Crime Scene Investigation) is capable of smelling the tiniest trace of blood, knowing how to recognise its human origin. To convince us of their capability and the extraordinary work carried out by these very special detectives in the course of over 200 investigations, he screens a video for us, showing their training and their intervention on the ground.

[Carana]

As you've pointed out, it's a pay site, so what you can read without paying is only part of the article.

Would that be it?

Yes, but Redblossom kindly dug out the relevant bit from a different link.

[ferryman]

Yes, but Redblossom kindly dug out the relevant bit from a different link.

Do you dispute the relevant bit?

[Redblossom]

Yes thanks FM for the quote, so? Still doesnt mean anything, just factual  statistics to be considered....it would be unprofessional for anyone involved not to, still doesnt prove Mr A was lying about the Harrison guided searches

[Carana]

Do you dispute the relevant bit?

We talked about death by others, not murder.
Hemos hablado de muerte por terceros, no de homicidio.

No idea. The literal translation seems correct, but what exactly does that mean?

From unrelated legal documents with what would appear to be a reliable translation in view of the sources:

A court has found that you committed or attempted to commit, conspired, helped, or hired someone to commit murder, aggravated manslaughter, or manslaughter of any of your children; or
lsnjlaw.org
   
Un tribunal determinó que usted cometió o intentó, conspiró, ayudó o contrató a alguien para que cometiera el asesinato, homicidio culposo o el homicidio de uno de sus hijos o
lsnjlaw.org


 The four F-FDTL members convicted of manslaughter and attempted manslaughter in the shooting deaths of eight national police in 2006 continued to be held at a military facility rather than a prison.
daccess-ods.un.org
   
Los cuatro miembros de las F-FDTL, que fueron declarados culpables de homicidio e intento de homicidio por la muerte a tiros de ocho agentes de la policía nacional en 2006, siguieron internados en una instalación militar y no fueron trasladados a una cárcel.
daccess-ods.un.org
   
A court has found that you committed or attempted to commit, conspired, helped, or hired someone to commit murder, aggravated manslaughter, or manslaughter of any of your children; or
lsnjlaw.org
   
Un tribunal determinó que usted cometió o intentó, conspiró, ayudó o contrató a alguien para que cometiera el asesinato, homicidio culposo o el homicidio de uno de sus hijos o
lsnjlaw.org
   
44. Besides its jurisdiction over such cases as murder, manslaughter, malicious or grievous bodily harm, assault occasioning actual bodily harm, stealing, affray and rape, it undertakes civil claims in respect of accident cases and claims for damages for breach of human rights.
daccess-ods.un.org
   
44. Además de poder intervenir en casos de asesinato, homicidio, lesiones físicas graves o dolosas, agresión con resultado de lesiones físicas, robo, tumulto y violación, el Consejo interpone demandas en casos de accidente y reclama daños y perjuicios cuando se vulneran los derechos humanos.
daccess-ods.un.org
   
Those crimes include homicide, manslaughter, kidnapping, rape, grand theft, and illegally carrying a firearm.
boell.eu
   
Estos delitos son homicidio, asesinato, secuestro, violación, robo agravado y portación ilegal de arma de fuego.
boell.eu
   
A sixth Blackwater member has already pleaded guilty to one count each of manslaughter, attempted manslaughter and aiding and abetting.
daccess-ods.un.org
   
Un sexto miembro de Blackwater ya se ha declarado culpable de un cargo de homicidio, uno de intento de homicidio y uno de complicidad.
daccess-ods.un.org
   
   

[Carana]

I carried on hunting. "Homicidio" seems to be the generally accepted term for manslaughter.

However, could this doctor ever go on holiday to Ireland, or any other EU country, if Ireland requests extradition on the grounds of manslaughter?
europarl.europa.eu
   
¿Pero podrá este médico irse algún día de vacaciones a Irlanda o a cualquier otro país de la UE si Irlanda solicita su entrega alegando homicidio?
europarl.europa.eu


So what would "death by others" mean in juxtaposition to manslaughter?

Unless "death by others" was meant to convey the idea of manslaughter and "homicidio" was used to mean murder.

What's left?

It can't mean accident, unless a sofa and a wall were "third parties".


   

[ferryman]

Yes thanks FM for the quote, so? Still doesnt mean anything, just factual  statistics to be considered....it would be unprofessional for anyone involved not to, still doesnt prove Mr A was lying about the Harrison guided searches

Amaral:

We talked about death by others, not murder

Harrison:

This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine has been murdered.  Other possibilities or scenarios will be considered on request.

Amaral lied.

And the source of the scurrilous wikipedia leaks is laid bare.