So what are the various scenarios available to us?

[AnneGuedes]

To believe that you must think KM lied about finding the shutters and window open.  Why would she do that?

Elementary..

[AnneGuedes]

No I'm not kidding you Stephen.  Why do you think Kate would lie about the shutters and window? What did she have to gain from doing that?

There were other fingerprints found but they were incomplete.  That didn't stop them from being fingerprints.   IMo You are implying no other fingerprints whatsoever were found which is not true.

There were no other fingerprints on the inside.

[AnneGuedes]

Why do you think Kate would lie about the shutters and window? What did she have to gain from doing that?

Benice, you often have rather smart answers to a lot of discrepancies, don't you have any here?

[Benice]

You are implying by that statement that people who don't believe the Mccanns think they killed her.

I do not.

I believe she had an accident from which she didn't recover and subsequent event were to cover up what happened, and please don't say cover ups don't happen, they do.

I have given reasons many times here and elsewhere why I think the Mccanns behaviour is not in accord with an abduction, and nothing I have seen so far has convinced me otherwise.

You are welcome to show me I am wrong, with concrete evidence I am wrong.

So I take it you actually believe that 9 very intelligent, highly educated and - what is most important  - NORMAL decent people, all agreed to become major criminals in an instant and that even Fiona Payne was quite happy to encourage her own mother to agree to take part in this heinous crime - completely ignoring the possiblity that they could all end up in prison with their lives and their chldren's lives in ruins?

If what you said was true  - which means of course that they are all psychopaths -  then I'm quite sure that between the nine of them they could have come up with a much simpler plan than the complicated convuluted one which according to you they devised amongst themselves.   

 Like for instance: 

Remove the body at their leisure in the dead of night.
Go back to bed.
Get up in the morning, open the front door and leave it ajar.
Call the police and report their child missing.       

I'm a reasonably intelligent person, with no university education, and it took me about 10 seconds to come up with that plan.   Do you really think not one of them would have thought of that?


(Must go visitors are imminent)

[AnneGuedes]

It wasn't a crime scene whilst Madeleine was still being searched for by her parents and their friends.   It was only after she wasn't found by them  that it became one.

However, it was definitely a crime scene by the time the GNR arrived.   It should have been cleared and cordoned off at that moment.  They failed to do that and allowed all and sundry to continue to enter, including dogs who left masses of hairs around the place.

Benice, it's not fair and you know why :
1) The police should have been called earlier (I'm not blaming, I'm just observing)
2) Though the GNR would have been the appropriate police for a lost girl, it wasn't for an abducted one, a fact her parents had no doubt whatsoever about (as they stated repeatedly). The GNR isn't equipped to determine crime scenes.
3) The dogs had to get inside because Madeleine had disappeared from her bed, according to her parents. This is the norm when sniffer dogs are used.

[AnneGuedes]

Remove the body at their leisure in the dead of night.

What about rigor mortis ?

[stephen25000]

So I take it you actually believe that 9 very intelligent, highly educated and - what is most important  - NORMAL decent people, all agreed to become major criminals in an instant and that even Fiona Payne was quite happy to encourage her own mother to agree to take part in this heinous crime - completely ignoring the possiblity that they could all end up in prison with their lives and their chldren's lives in ruins?

If what you said was true  - which means of course that they are all psychopaths -  then I'm quite sure that between the nine of them they could have come up with a much simpler plan than the complicated convuluted one which according to you they devised amongst themselves.   

 Like for instance: 

Remove the body at their leisure in the dead of night.
Go back to bed.
Get up in the morning, open the front door and leave it ajar.
Call the police and report their child missing.       

I'm a reasonably intelligent person, with no university education, and it took me about 10 seconds to come up with that plan.   Do you really think not one of them would have thought of that?


(Must go visitors are imminent)

Are you really saying intelligent people don't commit crimes ?

Pull the other one.

and what's this crap about psychopaths ?

Essentially you cannot answer my questions.

[AnneGuedes]

The statistics show that stranger abduction does happen.   And that is all we need to know.

My belief that the McCanns are innocent is not based purely on what they say.  In the main it is common sense which tells me that they did not have anything to do with their beloved daughter's abduction.

I too despair of people who claim the parents 'did it' but refuse to say how or why they managed to change from loving parents into raving psychopaths in a matter of minutes, or how their friends suddenly lost all semblance of intelligence, and in a flash turned into brainless thickos who happily agreed to become accessories to the death/disposal of a child - as if a child's death was of no more important to them than a family goldfish which had been found dead.      It simply makes no sense.

Beliefs are a thing, common sense another one. You believe, it's your right, you pretend this is common sense, that is pure belief ;)
Nobody on this forum claims the parents did it. What is "it" actually ? Sceptics think the parents didn't tell the truth, they don't infer they are "raven psychopaths" !
I'm a sceptic but I'm very sure Madeleine was the most precious gift ever. And there's the rub !

[Lace]

What about rigor mortis ?

If Gerry found Madeleine dead due to an accident when he did his check, there was nothing stopping him leaving it until they returned to the apartment and saying that the accident occurred when they were there.

Rigor mortis does not set in until three hours after death.

[AnneGuedes]

If Gerry found Madeleine dead due to an accident when he did his check, there was nothing stopping him leaving it until they returned to the apartment and saying that the accident occurred when they were there.

Rigor mortis does not set in until three hours after death.

No, Lace, (going on your hypothesis) there was something stopping him : the temperature of the body. Once thing is discovering a warm body, another a cold one. In the second case, neglect couldn't be discarded.
A poster, Meadow, remarked this long ago and this is very right.

[Eleanor]

No one would know if the body was in rigor mortis if Madeleine had been disposed of in the middle of the night.  And please lets not go into details.  Just use your common sense.

[Lace]

No one would know if the body was in rigor mortis if Madeleine had been disposed of in the middle of the night.  And please lets not go into details.  Just use your common sense.

That is true Eleanor.

They could say they found her in the morning.

[stephen25000]

No one would know if the body was in rigor mortis if Madeleine had been disposed of in the middle of the night.  And please lets not go into details.  Just use your common sense.

Your 'common sense' means agree with everything the Mccanns say.

No chance on that.

[Lace]

If as some are saying the McCann's staged the abduction.

If Kate herself opened the window,   why the heck did she leave her fingerprint?   For goodness sake everyone watches crime programmes don't they?    You don't leave your fingerprints if you have committed a crime!!

If the McCann's planned an abduction,  then surely they would have got rid of the clothes worn during the crime?  Kate surely wouldn't wear the trousers she wore during the crime a few days later!!

Also if the friends were also in on this cover up,  then get the stories matching.    Gerry would have said' yes he saw Jane passing' wouldn't he?

[stephen25000]

If as some are saying the McCann's staged the abduction.

If Kate herself opened the window,   why the heck did she leave her fingerprint?   For goodness sake everyone watches crime programmes don't they?    You don't leave your fingerprints if you have committed a crime!!

If the McCann's planned an abduction,  then surely they would have got rid of the clothes worn during the crime?  Kate surely wouldn't wear the trousers she wore during the crime a few days later!!

Also if the friends were also in on this cover up,  then get the stories matching.    Gerry would have said' yes he saw Jane passing' wouldn't he?

Bottom line.

No proof of an abduction.